Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

[gazelam]

I was hoping you had an answer.

What am I, the CAF LDS answer person?!?!

This is key to the Mormon nature of God. The Mormon exegesis of John 17:22 is that there are many gods which is consistent with the Mormon belief that man and God have the same nature, which is why they believe their god was once a man. Yet I don’t see these beliefs contained in the Bible.

You don’t see those beliefs in the Bible because you’re not looking very hard.

1. That God and man are the same nature is confirmed by Paul who said “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.” (Acts 17:28, 29)

“Offspring” in this verse comes from the greek word “genos” which means race, stock, or kin. We are the same “genos” as God.

1. John 5:19 says “Jesus answered and said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also”.
   Jesus in his mortal life followed a previous example of The Father.
2. John 10:18 Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

In John 10:18, “no one” can clearly be substituted for “no man of woman”. Some English translations before the KJV actually said “no man is good, but god”.

1. Jesus refers to himself as “Son of Man” a bazillion times in the gospels. “Son of Man” = “Son of God the Father”.

And we know the Mormon understanding of the nature of God has never been Christian.

You are mistaken. The Mormon understanding of the nature of God has never been Orthodox Christian.

 

[gazelam]

cont from above

9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, 10 and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. 11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. 12 When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely. 14 I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 17 Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. 19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
> 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me.
26 I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.”

In the bolded portion all I see is LDS doctrine and a refutation of the doctrine of the Trinity. It says that the Father gave glory to the Son. The doctrine of the Trinity holds that The Father and the Son were always co-eternally god so theoretically each always had maximum glory. Giving glory to the Son shows there was a previous time when He didn’t have glory. Am I missing something?

 

[gazelam]

The Church does not accept their baptism because they’re polytheistic. The Church does not consider Mormons to be Christian in any sense of the word.

No, nearly all Protestant denominations reject them as being Christian due to their polytheistic nature. The only exception to this might be some provinces in the Anglican Communion. Other than that, even the very liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America rejects their baptism and does not regard them as Christians. Very few Protestants would consider them Christians. Evangelical Christianity has a particularly rocky relationship with Mormonism.

They do indeed consider themselves Christians, despite their denial of central Christian doctrines as well as their acceptance of doctrines which stand in stark contrast to Christianity.

It’s not as simple as how Orthodox Jews might disregard Reform Judaism as a valid expression of Judaism, or how Sunni Muslims reject Ahmadiyya Muslims as true Muslims. No. Mormons reject the most basic Christian doctrines. For example:

• Mormons worship three gods, Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.
• Mormons believe that Elohim is an exalted extraterrestrial and his literal son, which he and his godess wife begot, is Jehovah.
• Mormons believe an infinite amount of gods exist in the universe.
• Mormons believe that the universe is eternal, not having been created by God.
• The gods of Mormonism are mere creatures like us, but just in an exalted state.
• We too can become gods of our own worlds if we work hard enough according to Mormonism.
• Although because U.S. law now forbids it, Mormons consider polygamy a valid form of marriage and believe marriage is the ultimate way to salvation.
• Mormons employ numerous Masonic rituals in their “Temples” which are utterly foreign to anything in Christianity.
• Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to be scripture more perfect than the Bible.

Mormons cannot at all be considered Christians. They are farther from Christianity than any other faith. They are an actual cult.

Knowledgeable and charitable Catholics see things differently. Catholic Deacon and scholar Laurence Hemming speaking to an LDS audience said the following (see

from 20:00 to 21:10):

Because common ground that we share is one of the murkiest periods in Christian experience. It is the first 100 to 150 years of the foundation of the Christian church. I tease my friends in the Mormon Church History Department that in the origin of my form of Christianity we have icons and at the origin of yours you have photographs. But, the reality is that the origin of our common Christian heritage is those murky 150 years, which is so ill documented, which Margaret’s work has opened up. But, so much of what I know of my own tradition corroborates many things that she has taught me. But, many things that Latter-day Saints have taught me that Mormons also know, which is why I know we share a common root. And that’s why I think Mormons have been important in the unfolding of Temple Studies…

 

[Stephen168]

What am I, the CAF LDS answer person?!?!

Yes, You are the Mormon with the honest Mormon answers. You just get burned by fairmormon everytime.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We see the Trinity, one God, three persons, who are in a reciprocal relationship. Pope John Paul II:

1. Jesus, as we saw in our last catechesis, enjoys a very special relationship with “his” Father through his words and actions. John’s Gospel stresses that what he communicates to men is the fruit of this intimate and extraordinary union: “The Father and I are one” (Jn 10:30). And again: “All that the Father has is mine” (Jn 16:15). There is a reciprocity between the Father and the Son in what they know of each other (cf. Jn 10:15), in what they are (cf. Jn 14:10), in what they do (cf. Jn 5:19; 10:38) and in what they possess: “Everything of mine is yours, and everything of yours is mine” (Jn 17:10). It is a reciprocal exchange which finds full expression in the glory Jesus receives from the Father in the supreme mystery of his Death and Resurrection, after he himself had given it to the Father during his earthly life: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you… I glorified you on earth … and now Father, glorify me in your own presence …” (Jn 1:1, 4f.).

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_10031999.html

 

[RebeccaJ]

Obviously the Catholic answer is, the Eucharist. Which Jesus shared and established on the same evening as His Prieslty Prayer.

 

[Stephen168]

I was hoping you had an answer. This is key to the Mormon nature of God. The Mormon exegesis of John 17:22 is that there are many gods which is consistent with the Mormon belief that man and God have the same nature,

You don’t see those beliefs in the Bible because you’re not looking very hard.

That God and man are the same nature is confirmed by Paul who said “For ‘In him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.” (Acts 17:28, 29)

“Offspring” in this verse comes from the greek word “genos” which means race, stock, or kin. We are the same “genos” as God.

Genos also can mean figuratively. St. Peter said we “share in the divine nature” we are not “the” divine being. The Bible is full of references to support the fact there is only one God, so clearly genos is used figuratively here.

John 5:19 says “Jesus answered and said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also”.

Jesus in his mortal life followed a previous example of The Father.

John 10:18 Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

In John 10:18, “no one” can clearly be substituted for “no man of woman”. Some English translations before the KJV actually said “no man is good, but god”.

Jesus refers to himself as “Son of Man” a bazillion times in the gospels. “Son of Man” = “Son of God the Father”.

Yes, God and Christ have the same nature because they are part of the Trinity. My my son and I have the same nature, but humans do not have the same nature as God; as Mormonism teaches.

…which is why they believe their god was once a man. Yet I don’t see these beliefs contained in the Bible.

…

You didn’t answer my question.

And we know the Mormon understanding of the nature of God has never been Christian.

 

[thephilosopher6]

our common Christian heritage

I can already tell he doesn’t believe in all the teachings of the Church. He does not represent Catholicism.

News Flash: Clergy don’t automatically represent the teachings of the Church because clergy can, and some do, hold things contrary to Church teaching.

The Catholic Church officially does not consider Mormons to be Christians in any sense of the word.

End of story.

You are not Christians, stop pretending to be apart of a religion that you’re not apart of. You’re Mormon. You’re not Christians, nor have you ever been Christians. Mormons and Christians hold to very different beliefs and practice very different things.

 

[thephilosopher6]

There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. One is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony (Joseph F. Smith, ed., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith [TPJSI, Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1976, p. 372). The very word divinity has only a functional, not a substantial content, because the divinity originates when the three gods decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about human salvation (Encyclopaedia of Mormonism [EM], New York: Macmillan, 1992, cf. Vol. 2, p. 552). This divinity and man share the same nature and they are substantially equal. God the Father is an exalted man, native of another planet, who has acquired his divine status through a death similar to that of human beings, the necessary way to divinization (cf. TPJS, pp. 345-346). God the Father has relatives and this is explained by the doctrine of infinite regression of the gods who initially were mortal (cf. TPJS, p. 373). God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. The Son and the Holy Spirit were procreated after the beginning of the creation of the world known to us (cf. EM, Vol. 2, p. 961). Four gods are directly responsible for the universe, three of whom have established a covenant and thus form the divinity.

As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2.

–THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, Fr Luis Ladaria, S.J.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...oc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

 

[thephilosopher6]

Because Mormonism is a fundamentally polytheistic religion which employs many of the same polytheistic motifs of old, Mormonism is in no way shape or form Christian. No! Nada! Zippo!

And frankly, I find it somewhat offensive when I see Mormons engaging in their rituals or worship services and claiming it to be “Christian.” You can’t just appropriate a groups title and apply it to yourselves when you’re in no way shape or form related to this group.

What if a particularly odd Episcopalian decided one day he was going to accept the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet while disregarding almost every other Mormon belief in place of believing traditional Christian doctrine. Would you consider him a Mormon even if he claimed to be a Mormon? No! Would you find it offensive if he starting calling his Episcopal church a Mormon Temples? You probably would. The same applies here. You can’t call yourself Christian when you believe and practice in something completely different from Christianity!

You can’t just appropriate a title of a group that you’re not apart of. It’d be like me calling myself Jewish because I admire many things about Judaism, I believe that God has a plan for them, so now magically I’m going to declare myself to be apart of them. You can’t just do that! You accept the Bible as scripture, woopty doo! You do your made up version of communion with bread and water, great for you. But guess what, you also worship 3 gods, believe in an infinite amount of gods, believe the Book of Mormon to be ultimate scripture, you believe in that we’re literal children of the god Elohim spiritually, you believe Elohim has a wife, you have your own Temples, you perform numerous Masonic rituals in these Temples such as the “endowment” or “baptism of the dead”. These are contrary to Christianity in so many ways. That’s because they’re Mormon beliefs, not Christian beliefs. Christians believe there is one eternal, all loving, all knowing, all powerful God who exists as a Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who created the universe and sent his Son to die for our sins. This is what Christianity believes.

Hey guess what, Muslims also believe in Jesus! They believe he is a prophet and the Messiah. Are Muslims automatically Christians now? No! Again, similar applies here in the case of Mormonism.

I’m just trying to get you to understand why you cannot properly be labeled as Christians. I am not trying to be rude I am just trying to get you to understand. Thank you and have a good day.

 

[Stephen168]

You’re not Christians, nor have you ever been Christians.

Just a small disagreement. Mormonism was Christian. Joseph Smith founded a church to teach repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. They were a Christian adventist sect with Joseph Smith as a prophetic leader who claimed gifts of the apostles; healing and receiving revelations from God. This did not require any authority; just a call to teach and a call for repentance. Joseph Smith was baptized by Oliver Cowdery in 1929. Smith was made a High Priest by Lyman Wight in June 1831 and Lyman Wight was made a high priest by Joseph Smith the same day. Nobody claimed to have or need authority for these things. A few days later, Joseph Smith sent Oliver Cowdery on a mission to the Lamanites (American Indians). At this time the Book of Mormon referred to Mary as the Mother of God, the Lectures on Faith said God was a spirit, and Joseph Smith’s 1832 first vision story said he talked to only Jesus; so they were a trinitarian Christian sect at the beginning.

The break from Christianity started in 1835 when Joseph Smith translated an Egyptian funeral text into the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham refers to God in the plural. The Book of Mormon was changed to call Mary the Mother of the son of God and the “first vision story” was changed to say that Jospeh Smith saw God and Jesus. In 1843, Joseph Smith said he had a revelation that God was made of flesh and bone. At this point, Mormonism had left Christianity.

 

[kainosktisis]

I have relatives who’d converted to Mormonism decades ago. If I understand their theology, they don’t believe in God as the Holy Trinity, but rather as each Person (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) being a God - the Father & the Son being exalted men who’d come into the world in the ordinary way (sexually) as all men do. They consider themselves THE Church of Jesus Christ. They believe that men can become gods.

From Wikipedia on Unitarianism:

Unitarianism - Wikipedia

 

[kainosktisis]

I think for me the most convincing part of Scripture is the Shema:

“Hear, O, Israel, the Lord, Our God - the Lord is One!”

Also Isaiah 45 (BibleHub - NIV):

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.

There is only One God, not many. Moses had said that other gods are actually demons.

Deuteronomy 32 KJV:

16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Similarly this is repeated in the NT in 1 Corinthians 10 (KJV):

http://biblehub.com/kjv/1_corinthians/10.htm

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

Isaiah 44:8

“Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.”
King James Version (KJV)

So God Himself is telling us He is it. There are no other gods in existence but Him.

Also, when speaking about Abraham, Jesus stated this:

John 8:58 - Lexicon in Greek w/ English Translation:

https://www.biblehub.com/lexicon/john/8-58.htm

BibleHub - Strong’s Concordance:

http://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm

1510 /eimí (“is, am”) – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive (“omnitemporal,” like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has “timeless” implications. For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ’s great “I am” (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

Example: Jn 14:6: “I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life.” Here 1510 (eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning “I am (was, will be).” The “I am formula (Gk egō eimi)” harks back to God’s only name, “Yahweh” (OT/3068, “the lord”) – meaning “He who always was, is, and will be.” Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios (“Lord”).

For this the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy because He was making Himself out to be God (YHWH, the same of which the Shema is recited), & they understood His meaning - & He did not deny this ever.

 

[Stephen168]

Knowledgeable and charitable Catholics see things differently. Catholic Deacon and scholar Laurence Hemming speaking to an LDS audience said the following

“That Jesus is Yahweh was fully understood by the early church.”

 

[kainosktisis]

But what of the account of the Angel Moroni & the gold tablets that are translated using the Urim & Thurim?

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

How can the Augustinian Trinity as embraced by Catholics be defined by a oneness that Jesus asked his disciples to also enjoy? And/or how am I misreading this?

Jesus is not talking about one-ness with God, as in becoming God. This prayer is about the Church, the Church founded by Christ and given to Peter and the other apostles, and then the world. Jesus is talking about all being one with His Church.

Deification is not directly related.

Today the Catholic Church believes that Father and Son are one because they are consubstantial. This oneness from Augustine to today is a union that no two humans can enjoy. God is one being in three persons in a way that no 2+ humans can be “one being.”

The Catholic understanding of HOW God is one does not align with the understanding of John or Jesus Christ expressed in 2-3 places in the High Priestly prayer. Whatever truth is, Christ (the speaker) and John (the author of inspired scripture) did not say or write words that align with the Catholic view. Either John 17 is incorrect or modern Catholics are.

These words of John and Jesus do align with what LDS believe. So, John and Jesus COULD believe exactly what I do concerning God the Father and God the Son’s ONENESS.

The fact that LDS view of deification ALSO aligns with HOW God the Father and God the Son are one is just further evidence that LDS have a more consistent read of the Bible than do Catholics (in this area at least).

In fact, the tortuous history of deification in Catholic thought is a product of the focus on metaphysical monotheism to the exclusion of numerous other ways of conceiving of monotheism. CCC460 has verbiage that was almost never spoken or written from 500AD to 1900AD.

LDS are monotheists who reject the ousia based monotheism. Consequentially, LDS have available to them a consistent theology of monotheism, Tri-unity, and deification.

Horton:

3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. 5 Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began. 6 I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Note the passages in bold. How does that support the LDS thought? The reality is it doesn’t. “The only God” would indicate one, there can’t be many only gods as the LDS believe.

Because for LDS, God the Father is SUPREME. Jesus Christ is the “One sent.” LDS theologians embrace a combination of Monarchical Monotheism (God the Father is the Font of Divinity and union with Him is divinity) and Social Trinitarianism (God is the union that includes God the Father; has ALWAYS included God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; and may yet included deified men and woman united to God).
Cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

In addition to John 17:3-6 not violating LDS theology …

It does not include the person Jesus Christ as “the only true God.” It thus does not teach the “co-equal” formulation present in the Athanasian Creed or believed by Augustine (in most of his writtings).

Do you believe the Jesus is true God? Is God the Father then “the ONLY true God?” Again works with LDS thought difficult or unworkable in Catholic thought.

Verse 5. God the son is acknowledging he was with God the father before the world began. Again direct contradiction with LDS thought.

This is in complete alignment with LDS. And not only with LDS thought as formulated by reflective trained theologians like Blake Oster, but with virtually every LDS who has ever put pen to paper. I don’t even know what you are critiquing here?

They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth

Again direct contradiction of LDS thought.

24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

How does this work in LDS thought?

LDS believe that we are literal sons and daughters of God the Father. But numerous LDS general authorities have also explained that we are adopted sons and daughters of Christ. He bought us for a price and we are His.

You keep asking for us to provide proof Catholicism is true. You are making the claim it is not and the LDS thought is. It is up to you to prove it. We know Catholicism is the true Christian faith. We also know the LDS thought is a false.

I am claiming that in multiple place Christ during the High Priestly Prayer made statements that are inconsistent with the Catholic view of God’s ONENESS.

I am claiming that there are no other places in the Bible that provide a clearer picture of HOW God the Father and God the Son are ONE than John 17, and thus there is no Biblical support for a monotheism that does not align with John 17.

I am claiming that LDS teachings align with John 17’s view of monotheism and Catholic teachings do not.

I am claiming for this and a handful of reasons, the LDS concept of Trinity is better supported that the consubstantial concept of Trinity embraced by Catholics and virtually all Christians after Augustine.

So, I am not claiming LDS are right BECAUSE Catholics are wrong. I am claiming LDS are right because they align with the teachings of the Bible and Catholics are wrong because they do not align with the teachings of the Bible.

Nobody has tried to respond to the argument that John 17:22 tells us a great deal about HOW God the Father and God the Son are one. And what it tells us is not consistent with the modern Catholic view.

Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

But what of the account of the Angel Moroni & the gold tablets that are translated using the Urim & Thurim?

Do you mean the truth if it or the changing storying of it?

 

[TOmNossor]

Hello Kainosktisis!

Are you a Christian or a Jew? Do you believe the Jews who thought to stone Christ had it correct? Was Christ’s claims to divinity a violation of the Shema?

I am a Christian. I do not believe Christ’s claims and the truth of Christ’s divinity violate the Shema. Catholics agree with me in this point.

Stephen was challenged by Gazelam to explain HOW God’s oneness as conceived by modern Catholics aligns with the words of Jesus in John 17:22. He has not offered an answer as best I can see.

God’s oneness as conceived by LDS aligns with John 17:22 and the Shema. The issue I have been trying to get any Catholic to address is not “is God one,” but ”How is God one?”

Modern Jews and Muslims (and ancient philosophically minded Greeks) are monotheists in ways that Christians (and ancient Jews for that matter) are/were not.

Catholicism attempts to assert that they are monotheistic because God the Father and God the Son are ONE BEING. But John 17:22 claims that humans should be ONE like the Father and Son are ONE. Nobody I know believes that humans are destined to become ONE BEING, so Jesus and John are not speaking in alignment with Catholic theology.

LDS assert that we are monotheistic because God the Father is supreme AND those who are also divine are divine in UNION with Him. Thus there is a single God. This UNION view of monotheism does not align with the Greek OUSIA based monotheism, but it is consistent with the Bible including the Shema AND John 17:22. LDS have rejected 500 years of Christian development (really 2000 as this debate is waging strong in scholarly circles) and believe that revelation and the Bible have given us an original and true understanding of the Trinity.

I am asserting that the LDS view of the Trinity aligns better to the Biblical text than the Catholic view.

I hope this better frames what I THINK is being discussed in this thread now.

Charity, TOm

 

[thephilosopher6]

I disagree, they were never Christian. Regardless, they are not Christian in anyway now.