Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

[thomasaquinas2015]

I would say they are Pseudo-Christians. However, there are are a lot of things that we can learn from Mormons like actually have desire to Evangelize. Which I hate to say this but Mormons are the best at it. Oh sure they believe a lot of wrong things. But nobody can doubt their zeal.

 

[Theo520]

I would say they are Pseudo-Christians. However, there are are a lot of things that we can learn from Mormons like actually have desire to Evangelize. Which I hate to say this but Mormons are the best at it. Oh sure they believe a lot of wrong things. But nobody can doubt their zeal.

In that is how they systematically evangelize themselves.

I’m convinced the real purpose of the Missionary program is to firmly indoctrinate LDS faith in their young adults. If evangelizing ‘new recruits’ was their real focus, they would run the program much differently (IMHO).

Then church attending adults are continually discussing and studying the Bible and their Smith books. Just imagine if every Catholic attended a 1hr RCIA type class every Sunday to discuss their faith and read the Catechism as a group.

 

[lilypadrees]

What Mormons are good at is evangelizing their religion’s and church’s founder, Joseph Smith. They are not good at evangelizing the real Jesus.

As for zeal, JWs have more of that than Mormons do. Like Mormons, they also write their own Bibles and believe in the wrong Jesus. (The JW Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer (Satan).)

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

Augustine was not a convert who struggled with a doctrine. Augustine REFUSED to join what you call Christianity because Christianity believed that God was embodied. He didn’t struggle. He rejected the faith of his mother, St. Monica and would not be a Christian.
Then, later in Augustine’s life, St. Ambrose explained to Augustine the BETTER truth that God was not embodied at all and Augustine joined this version of Christianity.

To Summarize
St. Augustine mistakenly believed that Christians believed God was made of flesh and bone. St. Ambrose told him he was wrong, so he became a Christian.
I wonder if just maybe St. Augustine was misinformed by rumors about Christians in regard to the Eucharist.
I’m sure you have quotes from primary sources to clear this up.

Stephen,
I told you concerning Nicea that you may declare your ignorance and ask for references at which time I will give you some reading OR you may define a point of disagreement and agree to interact with primary sources I offer. If you do neither, I am well experienced with your response to CLEAR teachings from primary sources. You ignore that which you cannot undermine and interact superficially with that which you think you can undermine. I claim scholars agree with my position because you regularly imply that I am too stupid to read the documents and understand them. This is an “appeal to authority,” but it is a reasoned and rational response to your non-arguments.
I do not know if you have read none of Augustine or parts of Augustine, but there are parts of Augustine that you seem to evidence you have not read. Augustine did present that the Manicheans misrepresented Christians to him. BUT he also explains that simple Christians believed God was embodied AND groups of Christians believed God was embodied AND scripture points to an embodied God.
In addition to this Augustine was raised as a Christians by his mother who was/is a Catholic Saint. He was part of a Christian community. Your suggestion that he was misinformed by rumors is not what reading ALL of his words would suggest AND also seems extraordinarily unlikely since his mother and members of his community were Christians and he was raised as a Christian. He would of course rebel from his upbringing, but the witness of his mother’s faith and love would never leave him. That being said, he claims the belief in an embodied God was what kept him from the catholic faith.
So, Stephen like what I told you about Nicea, do you have no idea what Augustine wrote and would like reading suggestions? Or do you have a specific point of disagreement you would like to voice AND a PROMISE to interact with primary sources I bring up. I will await your response.
Charity, TOm

 

[Lemuel]

I think you’re spot on. I also think that’s why they lowered the mission age five years ago. They were losing too many kids right out of high school. They wanted to get them before college days corrupted them.

 

[Lemuel]

When I was a missionary it was more about Joseph Smith than Jesus. Praise to the man. He did a greater work than any other man including Jesus.

 

[TOmNossor]

BTW, I have claimed that it is the authority of the Catholic Church that leads to the rejection of an embodied God. I will further state that most (maybe all) of the ancient writers who argue against an embodied God state their philosophical reasons for finding an embodied God ridiculous.
What reason other than philosophy and Catholic authority is there to believe God does not have a body? This is a trick question. I think the answer is no reason at all. That being said, authoritative declaring/defining is a Catholic principle.
I am just saying that if there is no good reason other than Catholic authority and philosophy common among Christians and pagans, perhaps LDS should be celebrated for our position. And perhaps this really is just the culture fighting against the Christian who is viewed as ridiculous for asserting God has a body. Certainly that describes Augustine, “I will not follow Christ because He taught ridiculous things like God is embodied.”

Charity, TOm

 

[thomasaquinas2015]

I wholeheartedly agree it is wrong and misguided.

 

[thomasaquinas2015]

What Mormons are good at is evangelizing their religion’s and church’s founder, Joseph Smith. They are not good at evangelizing the real Jesus.

As for zeal, JWs have more of that than Mormons do. Like Mormons, they also write their own Bibles and believe in the wrong Jesus. (The JW Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer (Satan).)

No need to clarify what they are good at evangelizing, I agree. No need to also say what Jesus they are following. We all understand that.

 

[lzlp]

…no…For Catholics , Jesus is necessary for the forgiveness of sins…not optional

 

[Stephen168]

The Mormon’s I knew as a kid had a belief that either Catholicism or Mormonism was “true.” My friend once told me that “Catholics and maybe Lutherans” believed in the trinity assuming that all the remaining Christians, like Mormons, rejected the trinity. They seemed to know a lot about Catholic beliefs and nothing about Protestant beliefs.

It wasn’t until I read the book Mormon Doctrine that I understood. Mormon Doctrine included many teachings of the Catholic Church. Could you imagine the teachings of a non-Catholic religion being taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is weird.

I firmly believe there are Mormons who believe that proving the Catholic Church wrong equals proving the Mormon Church right. They do this because they can’t prove the Mormon Church to be the ancient Christian Church.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Stephen168]

You are making assumptions which you know, is never good.

It is a foundation. The Constitution of the USA came from the USA. Is the authoritative interpretation of the Constitution, the USA? Or is it TOm?

Do you find that the authoritative interpretation is found in the USA, to be circular or rational and reasonable?

This is a good analogy. The Constitution of the USA is a document of the USA, not France, not Japan, not Spain.

Therefore, it is the USA that authoritatively interprets the Constitution of the USA.

The USA has a group of Justices of the Supreme Court who are the final arbitrators concerning what is Constitutional and what is not Constitutional.

Yes, not the courts of France, Japan, or Spain.

I know that the writings of the Church Fathers are not Mormon. They are not Mormon in the same way the constitution of the USA is not of France, Japan or Spain.

Therefore, when a Mormon claims Mormon beliefs are ancient or cherry picks an Early Church Father in an attempt to prove Mormonism ancient, I know that it is not true before I go to the original (not original but primary) documents, that I will not find the unique teachings of Mormonism.

 

[lilypadrees]

LOL. Yes, we understand that. But they keep forgetting that we know more about their erroneous beliefs and teachings than they think we do. They keep trying to give us snow jobs and don’t like the fact that we aren’t falling for it.

Unfortunately, these erroneous beliefs and teachings do bear repeating because there are still many, even here on CAF, who are unaware and need to be forewarned with the truth about them.

 

[Stephen168]

BTW, I have claimed that it is the authority of the Catholic Church that leads to the rejection of an embodied God. I will further state that most (maybe all) of the ancient writers who argue against an embodied God state their philosophical reasons for finding an embodied God ridiculous.

Yes, you claim and state a lot on this thread and prove nothing.

What reason other than philosophy and Catholic authority is there to believe God does not have a body?

Catholic belief is rational (philosophy). Christians have always believed God is spirit.

This is a trick question. I think the answer is no reason at all. That being said, authoritative declaring/defining is a Catholic principle.

At its founding, Joseph Smith and Mormonism taught that God was a spirit. In 1843, Joseph Smith changed his mind and authoritatively declared that God has a body of flesh and bone.

Authoritative declaring/defining is what Mormons love about continuing revelation. I’m sure we can list some more Mormon authoritative declarations which are irrational when compared to earlier authoritative declarations.

 

[Horton]

I firmly believe there are Mormons who believe that proving the Catholic Church wrong equals proving the Mormon Church right. They do this because they can’t prove the Mormon Church to be the ancient Christian Church.

And the reason they can’t prove the ancient Church to be LDS is the ancient Christian Church is NOT LDS.

 

[gazelam]

At its founding, Joseph Smith and Mormonism taught that God was a spirit. In 1843, Joseph Smith changed his mind and authoritatively declared that God has a body of flesh and bone.

That’s an odd assertion to make given what’s available from historical documents and LDS scripture.

November - December 1830
Moses 6:8,9 Now this prophecy Adam spake, as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and a genealogy was kept of the children of God. And this was the book of the generations of Adam, saying: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created and became living souls in the land upon the footstool of God.

Truman Coe, a Presbyterian minister who had for four years lived among the Mormons in Kirtland, published the following regarding the beliefs of the Latter-day Saints in the August 11 1836 Ohio Observer: They contend that the God worshipped by the Presbyterians and all other sectarians is no better than a wooden God. They believe that the true God is a material being, composed of body and parts; and that when the Creator formed Adam in His own image, He made him about the size and shape of God himself. (“Truman Coe’s description of Mormonism,” 347, 354)

Joseph’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also noted that other Christian denominations took issue with the new Church because of its teachings about God, noting that in 1830:

the different denominations are very much opposed to us… The Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle. (Lucy Mack Smith, The History of Joseph Smith By His Mother Lucy Mack Smith, edited by Preston Nibley, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1956), 161)

 

[Stephen168]

That’s an odd assertion to make given what’s available from historical documents and LDS scripture.

Mormon scripture changes. As I posted earlier in this thread:

All Mormon beliefs are not contained in Mormon scripture and there have been times when Mormon scripture talked about Mormon beliefs they had rejected.

For example:

The Lectures on Faith were Mormon scripture

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, … And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things:

Clearly the Father is a spirit, and the Father and Son and maybe the Holy Spirit are one.

In 1920, the Lectures on Faith were removed from Mormon scripture, because over 60 years earlier, Mormonism had changed their belief in the nature of God.

To review:
Mormon scripture said God was a spirit

Joseph Smith authoritatively declared God was flesh and Bone in 1843.

If Mormons believed God was flesh and bone from the beginning, Joseph Smith would not have had to have a revelation in 1843.

But the main point of my post was:
Catholic belief is rational (philosophy). Christians have always believed God is spirit.

Authoritative declaring/defining is what Mormons love about continuing revelation. I’m sure we can list some more Mormon authoritative declarations which are irrational when compared to earlier authoritative declarations.

 

[guanophore]

f Jesus gave the Keys over to Peter, then ultimately the Chair of Peter legally binds who deserves to be called a Christian and thus heirs of heaven.

Jesus did give the Keys to Peter, but Peter, and his successors, would never contradict what God has revealed:

2 Timothy 2:19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,”

The Church has always recognized that there are those who belong to God that may not be visibly evident.

Mormons and most all the 40,000 business ventures completely reject this idea that Jesus gave Peter keys.

This is a false statement. One has to wonder what sort of agenda you are implementing here on CAF?

Orthodox has been divinely Protected through thick and thin only because the Pope legally bound it so in heaven for the sake of the souls of laity.

So the Holy Spirit did not protect the sacraments in these sui juris churches founded by Apostles?

Likewise, the ‘mainline/authentic’ Protestants only have a legal baptism sacrament because the Chair of Peter bound it to be so

So Jesus’ instruction of Trinitarian Baptism was not a factor?

ost Reformation European religious heretics were really polticial rebelions in disguise. Many, many of these groups were cast away to America where they could operate in freedom, hence todays (imagined) Rights, Freedoms and Democratic republic.

Interesting. So you believe that the United States operates under “imagined rights and freedoms”? God does not really support "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’?

 

[CowboyKarimov]

If we’re talking fundamental beliefs (aka: what really counts), then no, they aren’t Christians. There are fundamental differences in beliefs and cosmology between these groups and the more liberal Protestant churches they descend from, let alone Catholicism.
However, one thing I will concede to these groups is that their shared heritage and values make them Christian in many other ways, such as their worldview and nature of worship. If anything, they’re definitely closer to us than other Abrahamic faiths recognized at large as distinct religions. Because of these similarities I would, for simplicity’s sake, personally label these groups as “Christians” on something like a census, which is official but out of necessity must also be very general.

 

[SnoopSword]

Mormons and most all the 40,000 business ventures completely reject this idea that Jesus gave Peter keys.

guanophore:

This is a false statement. One has to wonder what sort of agenda you are implementing here on CAF?

“The Baptist church in 1609 by John Smyth. Mormons? 1830 by Joseph Smith. Jehovah witnesses? 1872 Charles Taze Russell and Fundamentalism was founded in 1910 by Milton and Lyman Steward. Each church CLAIMING IT WAS RESTORING something that was LOST [THE KEYS]. Each denomination CLAIMING it professed THE TRUTH of the Bible.”

CHURCH WAS LOST TO SATAN PREVAILING AGAINST HER, BUT THE MORMONS RESTORED THEM! “Mormon President Kimball turned to the STATUE OF PETER [at an authentic church in Denmark] and POINTED to the LARGE SET OF KEYS in Peter’s right hand, he proclaimed: ‘The keys of priesthood authority which PETER HELD as President of the Church I NOW HOLD AS PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH in this dispensation.’ - ldsscriptureteachings .org --(BWAHAHAHHA)

MORMON CHURCH AS A CATH CHURCH REPLACEMENT (typical in all American cults/lodges - Washington replacing Rome etc): “What better way to RECOVER ALL THE KEYS, ORDINANCES and DOCTRINES from PREVIOUS dispensations [churches] than to have [ANGELS] appear to AND TUTOR…” -ldsmag .com

MORMON CHURCH AS A CATH CHURCH REPLACEMENT “In 1836, MOSES, ELIAS and ELIJAH appeared to JOSEPH SMITH and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple to RESTORE KEYS.” -(lol like Islam, trying to overtake Christianity by claiming to be the KEY HOLDERS what else is new)

A hilarious quote from a comment I found once: “I have the KEYS to death and Hades!!! I AM the One!!!”

MORMON GOD: “The Father has a body of FLESH and BONES as tangible as MAN’S” [Doctrines and Covenants 130:22]

MORMON TRINITY: “we know that both the FATHER and the SON are in form and stature PERFECT MEN; each of them possesses a TANGIBLE BODY…of FLESH and BONES,” [Articles of Faith (1899), 38.]

MORMON GOD: Joseph Smith (founder-prophet): “God himsef…is an EXALTED MAN, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…if you were to see him today, you would see him like a MAN in form—LIKE YOURSELVES, in all the person, image, and very form as a MAN;” [Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 3-4.]