Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

[TOmNossor]

Have you had “yes” answers?

If you are asking if someone has agreed that the embodiment of God was a common and perhaps prevalent view in the Early Church, then I do not think any non-LDS on this thread has acknowledge this. Other than saying it was a simple view held until “the Church” taught against it. A number of scholars have acknowledged this from their study of the Early Church and most of the arguments offered above come from a paper that was published in the Harvard Theological Review.
So the view that the Early Church had many believers in an embodied God has not been acknowledged by a SINGLE Catholic poster on this thread (that I have seen), but it has been regularly acknowledged by scholars for years.
Charity, TOm

 

[anon10271182]

Of course they are Christians. Everyone is! Yay!
Just like if you’re a Texan, you love football. You just might not know it yet.

 

[Stephen168]

I do know of ECF with teaching authority that taught that God was embodied.

You can’t define words used by the early church and you can’t quote the early church.
I will leave you to your fantasy.

 

[TOmNossor]

Horton:

TOm, you are not fooling anyone anymore. You can not take snippets of Catholic writings out of context to “prove” LDS thought to be true.
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over & over again and expect different results.

Horton,
Truth be told I expect the same thing each time. I say something that is TRUE about LDS history/thought or Catholic history/thought. I provided a rational interpretation of this.
Then someone such as yourself accuses me of any one of a number of things such as lying, misrepresenting, misquoting, or misunderstanding. In the past (probably too many times) I tried to provide the quotes (which were ignored, declared to be only part of the record, or understood differently – and wrongly IMO), tried to offer non-LDS scholars who agree with my understanding (I was then accused of the fallacy of “appeal to authority”), or ….
On this thread, instead of doing this I have asked the great detractors to point to ANYTHING they think is factually wrong in my claims, from history or my interpretation of those claims AND to commit to interacting with the data and arguments I provide. So far this is met with a repeat of the original, “You don’t understand the history,” “you are misrepresenting the history,” “you are not fooling anyone,”

@Horton and @Stephen168,
This thread will close in one day if nobody posts, but I wanted to close this out.
I have made a number of TRUE claims supportable by passages from the ECF and Catholic authors.
You have responded to these claims by accusing me of lying, misunderstanding, and/or trying to fool everyone. But, I do not think you believe this. I think you have no idea what the facts are and are just trying create some doubt in the minds of readers of the thread.
Since I was sure of my understanding on the first 3-5 times and since I have seen you (Stephen168) FALSELY make these claims and then ignore the efforts I put into demonstrating my points; I instead asked for a commitment from you to actually interact with the evidence I provided as a condition for the effort. And I got nothing.
Then Horton and you accused me of misquoting Michael M. Winter. Unlike all my other claims, I was not near as POSITIVE for Winter’s quote. I was still quite convinced that neither of you had ANY basis for the questioning my quote, but I hadn’t read Winter’s book.
One month ago, I found his book at a local university, drove there, copied the first 30-40 pages, read them, and produced my quote in about 1.5 pages of context; supporting my initial assertion. But, no response from either of you. No explanation as to why you accused me of not providing “more context” you were “sure” was there. No explanation as to why you accused me of “flawed” understanding relying on “significant lack of understanding.”
So, in the future when I am more sure than for the Winter quote, I will again offer to provide my evidence IF you will commit to interact AND I will reference this post.
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

He has not made a number of true claims about the early church being Mormon, supportable by passages from the ECF. It is also telling that someone who doesn’t understand words used by the early church, and just quotes partial sentences from Mormon apologetic and other websites has the hubris to claim others have not read, and don’t understand the early church as well as he does. He also spells Origen incorrectly most of the time.

 

[lilypadrees]

Ontologically, no, because only a proper baptism makes one a Christian. They are still brothers in Christ, despite their gravely flawed understanding of him.

I disagree that they are still brothers in Christ.

 

[TOmNossor]

He has not made a number of true claims about the early church being Mormon supportable by passages from the ECF.

…

He also spells Origen incorrectly most of the time.

I have never claimed the early church was “Mormon supportable.”

It is true that I have failed to correct my almost unstoppable desire to misspell Origen’s name. I have been trying, but it is a flaw of mine and I am sorry.

I hope to document the claims I have made, your non-response, my offer to clarify if you will interact, and then I will claim you have never agreed to interact because this is all here in this thread.

My claims are more modest than whatever “Mormon supportable” means. My claims are that there are a number of areas where the early church views align with the views espoused by the CoJCoLDS and where the DEVELOPED (aka CHANGED) view of the MODERN Catholic Church is different. There are even places where the Catholic Church is DEVELOPING back to the early church position that the CoJCoLDS had from the start.

It is also telling that someone who doesn’t understand words used by the early church,

Stephen, you are the one who claimed in this thread that the Holy Spirit is begotten. I merely pointed out that Athanasius and the Catholic Church (which you claim to embrace) say that the Holy Spirit is not begotten. For some reason (probably HUBRIS), you refused to just admit you made a mistake. Instead, you asked me to define words. I claimed I could, but only if you will interact with my definitions and acknowledge what I have said rather than just ignore it. You didn’t make such an agreement and I am still waiting.

just quotes partial sentences from Mormon apologetic and other websites has the hubris to claim others have not read, and don’t understand the early church as well as he does.

I do utilize Mormon apologetics, but I also read the underlying documents frequently. I offer as proof of this my DIFFERENT response when you accused me of not understanding Winter’s book. I had not read Winter’s book so I rectified this and you ignored my response as usual. You claiming the evidence I provide doesn’t exist or that I am lying about it suggests to me that you have not read the documents that I have read. That is why I say this.

Claiming I am lying or stupid does not respond to the evidence I put forth. I keep inviting you to do something different.

Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

You can’t define words used by the early church and you can’t quote the early church.
I will leave you to your fantasy.

Nothing has changed in two weeks.

 

[TOmNossor]

Stephen168:

You can’t define words used by the early church and you can’t quote the early church.

I will leave you to your fantasy.

Nothing has changed in two weeks.

Well, something has changed in the last couple of days. You accused me of hubris and I accused you of hubris.

You pointed out that I frequently misspell Origen’s name. I acknowledged that this is true AND apologized. I think pointing to my spelling is an act of someone without arguments, but I try to spell properly and I was wrong.

I pointed to a something you claimed I was doing. I said whatever “Mormon supportable” means, I was not doing what you said I was doing. You then edited your post, didn’t acknowledge your error, and didn’t respond to my correction.

Most folks who read here belong firmly to their TRIBE and seldom recognize when someone on their tribe is not making good points. I hope this will be different. I submit that you, Stephen168, seem to be unwilling to admit when you make mistakes. This is the second time in this thread that you have edited a post to hide a mistake or something you said that was just wrong AFTER it was pointed out to you.

It would seem to me that you are the one who cannot acknowledge mistakes and this is one of the hallmarks of hubris.

Now concerning the “definitions” you keep harping about, nothing has changed. You claimed that the Holy Spirit is begotten. I claimed you are not offering the Catholic position. You “responded” by asking me to define “begotten.” I have said :

1. The definition is not necessary when the Catholic Church teaches “not A” and you claim “A.”
2. The definition is imperfect in that it lacks absolute precision.
3. But, I know the definition and can offer it.
4. Furthermore, I will explain to you why your ERROR is theologically significant even though “begotten” is a less than precise word (your use actually screams the theological error I am speaking about).
5. However, I will only put forth this effort if you will agree to ENGAGE with my posts and address your original statement.

Nothing has changed. You continue to claim I don’t know what words mean and I continue to claim I do and will show you IF you agree to interact with what I say (unlike what happened when I put in about 8 hours to make sure I was not misquoting Winter which you completely ignored after claiming I was behaving inappropriately).

Anyway, this is a silly exchange. My family will be out of town so I suppose I will get what I give. Perhaps I will tire of this, and perhaps not. I suspect I am just getting muddy too and should pursue other things, but I keep hoping that something could change.

Charity, TOm

 

[JamesOfThunder]

As Jesus SAYS in the Bible. The ONLY people who are Christians, are the People who have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ. As Jesus SAYS in John 3:1-8 a person must be born again to see the kingdom of Heaven. The words of Jesus John 3:1-8. That means we have admitted to being a sinner Romans 3:23. Believe that the payment/price for sin is death Romans 6:23. Jesus’ death is the ONLY payment for our sin. Surrendered our life to Jesus. Confess and repent ANY sins that we remember committing throughout our life. Then live by the word of God/The Bible. Jesus teaches us in the Bible that Christianity is not a religion, it’s a way of life. (New Testament)

 

[SnoopSword]

As Jesus SAYS in the Bible. The ONLY people who are Christians, are the People who have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ.

The NT never says says this anywhere. Neither does the Apostles.

Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism etc are all of a personal relationship because they don’t have the Trinity (Father Son HS).

Since there is no proper path from the individual to the deity, they require a direct relationship; their mind which is directly connected to their deity. Therefore, their footsteps are divinely guided through good and bad, and in the end, they can do no wrong.

The dividing lines between right and wrong, good and evil, become perverse or erased. Their own life experience is their god and religion. The Way of The World (The Religion of The World).

These various deities, often called god/jesus/krishna etc, are simply a phantom that resides in the imagination. However, many studies demonstrate that the placebo effect is very powerful.

Can someone goto heaven if they follow a phantom in their imagination?

I would answer yes, it is possible, if through no fault of their own.

However, I would also say, if the phantoms name is ‘Jesus’, and they are outside the Creeds of Faith (as a minimum), then these people will be the least likely to make it to heaven conpared to the rest, because the REAL Jesus and his Church (hint hint) teaches that there are many false Jesus’s.

One major ‘benefit/grace’ of being in ‘The Roman Catholic Church’ is being in a ‘bosom of safety’ where practices otherwise rooted in error, are tolerated in safety - thanks to the Roman Pontiff and they keys he holds and also his ability to bind and loosen in heaven.

So do any of you want to ‘unlock deep secrets’ of Scripture? Do you want to heal others? Speak in tongues? Do you want to be ‘lead by the Spirit’? Do you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

Yes?

Then come under the safety of the Roman Pontiff and into The Catholic Church where you can safely do these things and much, much, more. Send an email to a nearby Church and make an appointment to discuss RCIA classes. Remember, this isn’t a cult or business venture - classes are free.

---

As Jesus says in the Bible to do before all else; ‘seek FIRST the Kingdom Of God’.

 

[JamesOfThunder]

I don’t know where you got your information from but what you typed is NOT Biblical. Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven John 14:6. John 3:1-8 Jesus says that you MUST be born again/from above to see the kingdom of Heaven. What I typed I was not influenced by a Pastor, a priest, tradition, or the politically correct media. I posted scripture from the Bible. If you are uncomfortable with what the Bible says you need to take that up with God, not me. It’s his word not mine.

 

[joyful]

no, they’re not

 

[JamesOfThunder]

I would like you to open your Bible and take a picture where you got your information. I’ve read the Bible 6 times and now reading it for the 7th time and your information is not in the Bible. You say that the roman pontiff and the keys he holds he ALSO binds in Heaven??? lol Who made that up???Show me WHERE in the Bible it says this??? With all respect you can’t make up the word of God and say that it’s the truth. There is only one way to Heaven, Jesus Christ John 14:6, John 3:16, John 3:1-8 Revelation 3:20 etc etc. Because of faith a person is saved from grace as a gift from God Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Fauken]

Who made that up???Show me WHERE in the Bible it says this???

Jesus “made it up”. Matthew 16:18-19:

“16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven

Great! We agree! The difference is that we believe that Christ Himself established a Church to work through to guide and protect us from error, with the Pope as a “prime minister” basically. Where did you get the idea that someone said Jesus wasn’t or isn’t the only way? Why can’t Jesus use a Church to accomplish this?

 

[JamesOfThunder]

What I posted as the definition of a Christian IS in the Bible! Start reading the Bible and you will see for yourself. For starters Acts 11:25-26…(And he left for "Tarsus to look for Saul; and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers and the disciples were first called “Christians” in Antioch)…The reason WHY they were called Christians because they believed in Jesus and FOLLOWED his example. They had a relationship with Jesus. Also read Acts 11:19-23, Ephesians 1:12-14 etc etc. There are MANY VERSES that say what I posted and that is BECAUSE I got it from scripture. I didn’t get it from the pope, not my ccd teacher, not the history channel. I got it from the Word of God/The Bible. What you don’t understand is that I am an ex catholic and I know what is taught. But once I started to read the Bible, then for the first time I learned the truth. I learned what God teaches. If it’s not in the Bible, it has no truth.

 

[JamesOfThunder]

The pope is not the prime minister lol! Where does that say in scripture??? The pope is human and a sinner as I am he I’ve heard him speak,
many things from his mouth is not Biblical. … To answer your question John 14:6, Jesus is the only way to the Father. With all respect a person or religion should just make up it’s own doctrine and compare it to the word of God. That’s what satan does.

 

[Fauken]

The pope is not the prime minister lol!

I used it to illustrate what his role is. Are you familiar with how the English government works?

Where does that say in scripture???

Could you be more specific? Are you asking me to find the words “Prime minister” in Scripture? Also, if you want to get into a deeper discussion of Catholic doctrine and Scripture, may I ask you to make a topic about it in Apologetics? It’ll keep this discussion from going too off topic.

Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Okay… I still don’t see why He can’t use a Church to accomplish His will.

With all respect a person or religion should just make up it’s own doctrine and compare it to the word of God.

No one should pervert truth, no. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[JamesOfThunder]

Your statement from the book of Matthew 16:18-19 does Not STATE that Peter was the pope lol. Read the verses before and after. What that verse says is…Jesus asked Peter who do the people say that he is and peter said the Christ. So Jesus said regarding to the statement now upon this rock he will build his church. In other words now that the people believe he can build his church regarding the statement. There is now a foundation. Peter is NOT the rock of the church! Jesus Christ is the rock of the Church. I go to Church, I worship Jesus, NOT peter lol. Besides the very first organized church was the counsil of Jerusalem. James, the brother of Jesus was the FIRST LEADER of that church and he wasn’t a pope. This is in the book of Acts, in the Bible.

 

[JamesOfThunder]

As far as your question Jesus can use many things to bring a person to salvation. But it must be through him as it is written. Not lighting candles. Praying to people in Heaven because they can not hear our prayers. Not praying to statues. But believing that I we are sinners Romans 3:23. That the payment for sin is death Romans 6:23. That Jesus is the ONLY payment for sin. A person must be born again/from above John 3:1-8 We are save from grace and a gift from God Ephesians 2:8-9. If a person believes this through faith and whether they learn it in church, a missionary, T.V etc etc. As long as what they learn is from the Bible and truth.