Are Mormons and Unitarians Christians?

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Wow! You must have super natural abilities! Is it possible that I do know and understand much about the Catholic Church and that just disagree with one another? By the way, I read from both the NKJV & NASB. was God speaking literally or figuratively when He commanded that there be “No graven images”?
 
Why, thank you. I’ll bear those translations in mind when quoting Scripture for you.
 
If you are referring to Exodus 20:4 and Deut 5:8, those verses are referring to idols.
 
Jazz said:
was God speaking literally or figuratively when He commanded that there be “No graven images”?
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The actual quote from Exodus 20:4-5 is 4
You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; 5 you shall not bow down before them or serve them
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The bolded part is the important part in this verse. I’ve seen many protestant bibles with pictures of Jesus. Is that not a "graven image? How about nativity scenes with the baby Jesus? Not a graven image? Or is it somehow different?

Before you start telling Catholics what they believe is wrong you should make a real effort to know what we really do believe and not the anti-Catholic propaganda out there.
 
I don’t use a picture Bible although it does have drawings of maps. As for “propaganda”, I’ve read quite a bit from Catholic Church history, the Catechism, several Catholic authors and previous non-Catholic authors as well. As in other religions I have studied over the years, I take the information I read and place it against Scripture as the Apostle Paul admonishes us to be Bereans. By the way, I don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter as those are pagan holidays, along with Halloween. So, in some ways, I’m not even a “Protestant”. I’m a follower of Yeshua, a daughter of Elohim, and blessed with The Holy Spirit. We do not have images, either pictures or art work or statues of people that we pray to, to have them intercede on our behalf. We don’t have a crucifix with Jesus hanging from it as He is no longer on the cross. He has risen and sits at the right hand of Adonai. The only one I call Father is God Himself as He is my Abba. I often listen to Catholic Answers and EWTN along with Mater Dey radio. It is sad to me when I hear so very little of Jesus but am bombarded with stories of Sister Faustina, Padre Pio and Mary, along with many other “saints” and “The Catholic Church…The Catholic Church and it’s teachings. Seldom do I actually hear a message from Scripture. By the way, did you know that the Scriptures call those who have received Jesus “Saints”? I have several loved ones who have gone home to Jesus (they made an open declaration of asking Jesus in to their lives and repented of their sins), and yet, I would never think to pray to them and ask them to intercede on my behalf. Scripture tells me that Jesus is my High Priest, that the veil was rent in two and no longer is there a barrier between me and God as there had been up until the time of the crucification of my Savior Yeshua. Scripture tells me that “all who call on the name of Jesus shall be saved” and yet, He also says that “not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will have eternal life”, for there are some to whom Jesus will say, “Get away from me, I never knew you”. I don’t have a vendetta against the Catholic Church. I have a problem with “False Teaching” by any church or individual. Did you know that the stories regarding Mary being born without sin, never sinned and rose to Heaven just as Jesus did was not even defined as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1950 by Pope Pius XII even though the stories had been spoken about as early as the 4th or 5th centuries. If the Catholic Church was “the one true Church”, why wasn’t this set in stone when it happened? Is it because it is not even mentioned in Scriptures? Have you ever asked yourself WHY there’s so little about the life and death of Mary, the young teenage woman blessed above all others by Yahweh to bear Yeshua? No where…no where in Scripture is she called “the Mother of all God’s children”! No where does it state that she was born WITHOUT sin! That alone is a Catholic teaching. Please, if you desire that I accept these things, show me Scripture that shows the basis for so much of the teachings in the Catholic Cathechism. Blessings.
 
You claim not to be a Protestant but sure do a lot of protesting and dissing of the Catholic Church and its members.

If you refer to Jesus as “Yeshua,” you’re either Jewish or a Messianic Jew.

Regarding the rest of your claims, given the tone of your posts, I respectfully disagree.
 
Please show us the Scripture that says everything has to be in the Bible or it’s not true.
 
So in your mind, only you and others who think exactly like you are going to heaven. Those of us who are Christians will not have eternal life because, according to you, our leaders have not interpreted the bible correctly?

We rely on three means of knowing Christian teaching, Scared Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. There was much Jesus did I his three years of public ministry that was not included in the canon. If every single teaching of Jesus had been included no one could lift the bible. This is where Sacred Tradition comes in.

There may not be much included in the canon about Mary, but it doesn’t mean nothing was known. She was still with the Apostles and other disciples after Jesus ascended into heaven. Stories would have passed down. In looking back to that time and culture one has to think about how they commonly communicated. Many people could not read, only the most educated could, so they learned by telling stories and at some point someone did write these stories.

I have a difficult time understanding the concept of the totality of salvation & Christianity is found solely in the bible. What about the years when there was no “bible”, just random scriptures that were not organized into a canon. How did those early Christians know what to believe if there wasn’t a “bible” to follow?

This can go on & on. I read the bible and we hear scripture every day at Mass. Most of the Mass is taken directly from scripture so this isn’t about NOT relying on the bible but balancing it with the other two sources of learning Christianity.
 
“We are all called to be great saints. Don’t miss the opportunity.” - Mother Mary Angelica, Foundress of EWTN

If, as you claim, you hear so little of Jesus, you aren’t watching the right programs.

Watch EWTN’s Daily and Sunday Mass. You’ll hear plenty of Scripture.

Watch Fr Andrew Apostoli’s programs. He reads from the Scriptures frequently.

Father Mitch has a new program called Scripture and Tradition. Every episode is a study of the Bible.

So many Scripture based programs. You just have to know where to look.
 
How did a thread about the supposed Christianity of Mormons and Unitarians get hijacked by a bibliolater Judaizer and turned into one about the supposed Christianity of Catholicism?
 
I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion regarding who goes to Heaven and who doesn’t. I’ve not made claims nor have I even insinuated on this. Please, don’t put words in my mouth that are untrue. Will there be Catholics in Heaven? I’m sure there will be, right along with people from all denominations who have a sincere love of Jesus. I wasn’t raised with any knowledge of Jesus or God, other than being used in swearing. As a young adult I was with the JW’s until Yeshua brought me out of them. How did that come about? I started reading the Bible for myself and spending more time in prayer. Asking to be shown truths about Jesus and His desires for my walk with Him. He became my focus and not those in the Kingdom Hall. I was shown, through scripture that their teachings in many areas did not line up with Yesua’s teachings. In that my desire was to please Him above all others, I broke off my ties under their control. No, I’m not a messianic Jew. As to referring to Jesus as Yeshua…how was His name pronounced by His family, His friends and even His enemies? Where do I struggle with the Catholic CHURCH?
  1. Salvation through Jesus ONLY happens if you’re a Catholic. Just a few examples of this teaching:
    Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):
    “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
    Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533):
    “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)
    Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735):
    “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)
    Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):
    “There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)
  2. Mariology…go into any Catholic Church and you will see art of Mary or statues of her. Yeshua is only presented one of three ways, the first two are more dominant: He is either a baby being he by Mary or he’s on the cross.
 
“bibliolater”? I don’t “worship” the Bible but I DO worship the Author.
“ Judaizer”? Wasn’t Jesus Jewish? Why do you sound like it’s a disgusting thing?
 
Oh I’m just dishing it as it’s been given here. Had you and the other newbie to the forums approached your hosts with a little more humility and grace you wouldn’t have received the reaction that you did.

I know I should be the bigger person, the true Christian and let it roll off back, but I’m still human and sometimes humans don’t take disrespect very well.

The reason why I chose bibliolater and Judaizer to describe you is because of my impression of your priorities (coupled with the same disparaging tone you used with our Faith).

You clearly esteem the Bible quite highly, as you ought to, but you do so to a level that is irrational. Irrational for two reasons: (1) The very supremacy of scripture you seem to advocate itself cannot be demonstrated by scripture, and so is self-refuting; and (2) Even if you were able to demonstrate the sufficiency of scripture using scripture (which you cannot) it would necessarily be a case of you begging the question (i.e. using circular reasoning).

Your insistence on calling Jesus “Yeshua”, among other neo-Judaic practices, is bizarre in my opinion given your clearly Evangelical Christian theology. You deride us Catholics for the supposed “traditions of men” that we follow in veneration of the Saints especially Our Lady, and yet you blindly adhere to practices that are, wait for it… traditions of men. At least our traditions come from the Apostles and their successors. Yours come from White Evangelical Americans of the last 50 years who decided to slap a Jewish veneer over their American Evangelicalism to make it seem legitimate to Jewish converts. Little did they know that they could also convince loads of Gentiles with a very shallow understanding of theology thanks to the University of YouTube.
 
Jazz said:
Salvation through Jesus ONLY happens if you’re a Catholic. Just a few examples of this teaching:
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):
“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533):
“Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)
Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735):
“Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):
“There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)
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I will deal with these one at a time but both are very easy. Prior to the 15th - 16th century there was only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church. The word catholic means universal, the one universal Christian Church. The theologians you quoted would have been correct for their time and culture, there was no other Christian Church. Remember Jesus Christ told his followers that all who receive eternal life must come through him, through the church he founded on earth. Very simple explanation.
Jazz said:
Mariology…go into any Catholic Church and you will see art of Mary or statues of her. Yeshua is only presented one of three ways, the first two are more dominant: He is either a baby being he by Mary or he’s on the cross.
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As Catholics we do venerate Mary as the Mother of God. Just for the record we do NOT worship her. Worship is reserved for God alone (the triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Mary was blessed by God before she was born. Clues to this can be found in scripture when the angle Gabriel approaches her and her Magnificat, Luke 1:46-49.
The Magnificat
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  46And Mary said:
        “My soul exalts the Lord,
  47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
  48“For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
        For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
  49“For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
        And holy is His name.
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We do understand our beliefs regarding Mary can be difficult to take in, especially if one isn’t predisposed to like the Catholic Church.
 
I must have missed the scripture verses where the Apostles held Mary to the same degree as does the Catholic Church. Or where they taught that one MUST belong to the Catholic Church for not only communion but also salvation. You’re just doing what they did? Peter preached to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. Please, back up your words with scripture and then I’m happy to repent for my inaccurate understandings of your church. As for my understandings of the Catholic Church’s teachings, I’m well read. I’ve had hours upon hours of discussions with Catholics and I used to own/operate a Christian bookstore. The number one requests by Catholics in the store? A small statue of Joseph. Why you ask? So they could “bury it upside down to sell their home faster”! We wouldn’t even special order it. It was during that time that I educated myself on the teachings and rules of your church. There was one man, Thomas, who would drive 40 miles round trip to proselytize me. I even sat with him for hours at a time as I had a sincere desire for God’s truth. I sat with him each time he came in and he would tell me interesting things that “were in the Bible”. But no matter how much we would search for it in the Bible’s on the table before us, he couldn’t find them. He was always going to bring the information back with him to show me, but ALWAYS forgot.😏. Why do I not just willingly accept the teachings of the CC? Why is the Bible so important to me? Because I was misled and held under the rules of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for 6 years until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to their false teachings. It was then that I became a Berean, just as the Apostle Paul admonished us to do. That’s really what I suggest to people, to always check what you’re being taught against God’s Word. My desire was never to be offensive in my words, but to speak the truth IN LOVE. If I failed in doing so, I humbly apologize. Only the Holy Spirit can convict one of truth or falsehood, not me. With that, I will end this.
 
There is too much to address in this long post but the only false teacher is yourself.
Christmas is the celebration of Christ birth and Easter, called Passover, in most of the world is the celebration of Jesus triumph over death.
If you have really read the bible you know that God commanded Cherubs be put on the ark. You have misinterpreted the commandment, a false interpretation a false teaching.

Jesus wanted us to remember the cross. Luke 22:19. Yes I know Scripture calls many saints, it is rude of you to indicate that Catholics don’t read scripture.
Do you know that the Church never defines things until there is a controversy? Of course, it was spoken before. You do realize that you make the point for us? The point being is that it was always taught.
Speaking of what you know. Do you know how the Bible came about as you now have it?
Mary being born without sin, never sinned and rose to Heaven
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Did you know that this is not what we believe. She did not rise to heaven she was assumed. One of the reasons others have said you do not know Catholic teaching.
Mariology…go into any Catholic Church and you will see art of Mary or statues of her. Yeshua is only presented one of three ways, the first two are more dominant: He is either a baby being he by Mary or he’s on the cross.
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You missed the most important one Jesus is in the Tabernacle.
You do not understand Catholic teaching.
What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means
 
Jazz, I was born and raised Catholic. One of my ancestors was the first Catholic bishop and archbishop in the USA. It’s in my blood. My mother was raised in Protestant churches. So I attended those as well.

One day, I was sitting in one of the Protestant churches, which, coincidentally, is just up the street from our parish. As I sat there with my head bowed in prayer, the Holy Spirit revealed the hearts and minds of all these people, people I’d known for years. He led me out of that Protestant church and out of Protestantism entirely. I returned to the Catholic Church. My mother, having listened to the Holy Spirit, has also left the churches she was raised in and is now Catholic.
 
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You have been given some thoughtful answers here and yet you still want to be contentious. You have your beliefs and we have ours. I have tried to explain the truth in some of the areas where you have had trouble, even quoting scripture to do so. If you have more questions regarding what we Catholics believe feel free to ask, we are very open with our beliefs and practices, no secretes here.

We also never proselytize anyone. We feel that if we live as a good Catholic we are being witnesses to what God’s saving grace can do in anyone’s life. The Holy Spirit will lead the person to the right spot.
 
Jazz said:
I must have missed the scripture verses where the Apostles held Mary to the same degree as does the Catholic Church.
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This is exactly what I meant by:
AlbertDerGrosse said:
You clearly esteem the Bible quite highly, as you ought to, but you do so to a level that is irrational. Irrational for two reasons: (1) The very sufficiency of scripture you seem to advocate itself cannot be demonstrated by scripture, and so is self-refuting; and (2) Even if you were able to demonstrate the sufficiency of scripture using scripture (which you cannot) it would necessarily be a case of you begging the question (i.e. using circular reasoning).
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Your truth-finding paradigm is Sola Scriptura, more specifically that scripture alone is sufficient in determining doctrinal truth. For that paradigm to hold it is incumbent upon you to show in scripture where it says that scripture alone is sufficient in determining doctrinal truth. You won’t be able to do it because there isn’t a single verse in the Bible that says scripture is sufficient. Not a single one. I’m quite aware of the laundry list of verses many Evangelicals think demonstrate that, but they don’t actually demonstrate it upon critical scrutiny.

Furthermore, even if there were a passage in the Bible (which there isn’t) that in no uncertain terms said “all Christian doctrine must be explicitly mentioned in scripture” demonstrating the validity of that would be a never ending circular reference. “Scripture is sufficient because scripture says it’s sufficient.” That is a classic example of begging the question.
As for my understandings of the Catholic Church’s teachings, I’m well read. I’ve had hours upon hours of discussions with Catholics and I used to own/operate a Christian bookstore. The number one requests by Catholics in the store? A small statue of Joseph. Why you ask? So they could “bury it upside down to sell their home faster”!
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Oh you’ll get not argument from me that there aren’t loads of superstitious Catholics out there. I’ve met 'em myself! We certainly don’t have the market cornered though. Consider the hyper-literalistic Fundamentalists who see Biblical numerology in seemingly everything. They won’t fly on 6/6. The “Mark of the Beast” is everywhere for them!
 
Why do I not just willingly accept the teachings of the CC? Why is the Bible so important to me? Because I was misled and held under the rules of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for 6 years until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to their false teachings. It was then that I became a Berean, just as the Apostle Paul admonished us to do. That’s really what I suggest to people, to always check what you’re being taught against God’s Word. My desire was never to be offensive in my words, but to speak the truth IN LOVE. If I failed in doing so, I humbly apologize. Only the Holy Spirit can convict one of truth or falsehood, not me. With that, I will end this.
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Thanks be to God that He led you out of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! Sincerely, I mean that! He led me out of a lifetime of Mormonism so I know the feeling of being lied to and deceived. I think it’s interesting that you juxtapose the importance you place on the Bible to being misled by the Watchtower. The JWs are Sola Scripturists also! They just use a deliberately mutated version of the scriptures. They’re quite faithful to their New World Translation of the Bible though, and just like you, they’ll show you in their scriptures where orthodox Christianity is wrong and they’ll challenge you to show them how it is they’re wrong using their scriptures.

So why should I trust your Sola Scriptura over their Sola Scriptura? More specifically, why does the actual provenance of said scriptures matter? Well it matters because for us to have faith in the scriptures we need to be able to have faith in those who delivered the scriptures to us. We need to be able to trust the very sources of those scriptures otherwise we end up with that circular argument I mentioned earlier. We cannot use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true (or that it’s sufficient). There must be an external referent leading us to believe the Bible is true.

The JW NWT of the Bible is not trustworthy because it can be demonstrated that the JWs mutilated the Bible for the sake of ad hoc justification of their strange doctrines. So what about your Bible? Where did it come from? Where did the individual books of the Bible come from? Who decided to include them while excluding others? Or do you believe the Bible you have just fell out of the sky with a divine imprimatur?
 
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