Are Mormons Christians

[otjm]

This one I don’t get. They believe in the Trinity, ipso facto they are Christian. Am I missing something? Even Catholic Answers puts them in the Christian category: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-seventh-day-adventism-a-cult

Yes, you are missing something.

They believe that the Heavenly Father was a human being, and is perfected - so now he is a God, on some planet, and in charge of this one.

They also believe that Jesus was a spirit being before birth and was the spirit brother of the devil.

The believe in eternal regression - that is, to make it simple, that there was never an “unmoved first mover”.

 

[otjm]

Yes, I saw your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

I don’t understand the facination with finding a certain day for the apostacy. In my opinion, it occurred over a period of about 250 years, beginning before the apostles were killed and finalized at the nicene conference in 325 AD when bishops were required to sign the nicene creed or be banished from their cities. I believe there were many Christian Bishops that held to the truth but they were the leaders of local churches. Differences in doctrine developed over time until Contantine called the Bishops together for the council at Nicea to bring unity to the Church.

In one of his final epistles Paul wrote to Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Sorry, no date was given.

As for John, if he is still living. I don’t see that this would have any effect on the apostacy of the Church. Unless he is seceretly advising the Pope.

Well, we can rule out agnostic and atheistic theologians as oxymorons; that leaves us with Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic theologians. And we have theologians going back to 100+ AD.
So out of those all, how is it that not one of them ever discovered this apostasy? With the literally thousands upon thousands of documents, why has it never been found?

Short of any writings by Joseph Smith; what theologians in the LDS church have ever found any documentation of this?

 

[mtolympus]

Well, we can rule out agnostic and atheistic theologians as oxymorons; that leaves us with Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic theologians. And we have theologians going back to 100+ AD.
So out of those all, how is it that not one of them ever discovered this apostasy? With the literally thousands upon thousands of documents, why has it never been found?

Short of any writings by Joseph Smith; what theologians in the LDS church have ever found any documentation of this?

Probably the best evidence of the apostacy is the Nicene Council.

The council had been called by the Emperor Constantine to use the power of the state to force theological agreement among Christians. He believed that the Christian faith could become the “cement of the Empire” and found it imperative to quickly bring unity to the church. (Justo L. Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Volume 1: The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1984), 158-162.)

Constantine’s suggestion that Jesus was “of one substance with the Father” was presented to put to rest the Arian argument that belief in the divinity of both the Father and Jesus was polytheistic. The Arians believed that they were contending for the pure and absolute monotheism that had been affirmed in Hebrew Scripture and confirmed in Greek philosophy. (John Burnaby, The Belief of Christendom, A Commentary of the Nicene Creed (London National Society: SPCK, 1959), 73.)

The church established by Jesus was lead by apostles who were chosen by the Lord. These apostles received their authority from Jesus Christ by ordination. Apostles and prophets guided the church by revelation (Eph 3:3-5) and according to the writings of Paul, they should remain the foundation of the Lord’s church “till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.” (Eph. 4:13)

“And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of knowledge of the Son of God”(Eph. 4:1-13)

 

[JHow]

All you are really saying is that Mormonism doesn’t like the creed so the apostasy must have happened before that. Your real argument is with scripture, since the creed is drawn from scripture. All the pieces are there well before Constantine.

 

[Miriam1947]

This illustrates my previous post where I stated that Mormons and Christians use the same words but speak a completely different language. The Mormon beliefs about who God is are entirely different from Christian beliefs about God. We worship different Gods. Historically, Mormon leaders made it clear that Mormons are not Christian. Only in the last 20 years or so have Mormons claimed to also be Christian.

Mormons now claim to be Christian so that Mormonism will be looked upon as a mainstream religion.

For very many years, and I have seen videos of former Mormons, they would have been incensed to be called Christians.

 

[Telstar]

Mormons now claim to be Christian so that Mormonism will now be looked upon as a mainstream religion.

For very many years, and I have seen videos of former Mormons, they would have been incensed to be called Christians.

I suppose “you gotta do what you gotta do” in order to convince potential converts that you’re just like any other Christian denomination… except that you’re the only “right” one.

 

[Porknpie]

“And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of knowledge of the Son of God”(Eph. 4:1-13)

Olympus,

You have to show the entire passage. It’s all Very Catholic.

Ephesians 4:1-13 below

4 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

PnP

 

[twopekinguys]

Yes, I saw your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

I don’t understand the facination with finding a certain day for the apostacy. In my opinion, it occurred over a period of about 250 years, beginning before the apostles were killed and finalized at the nicene conference in 325 AD when bishops were required to sign the nicene creed or be banished from their cities. I believe there were many Christian Bishops that held to the truth but they were the leaders of local churches. Differences in doctrine developed over time until Contantine called the Bishops together for the council at Nicea to bring unity to the Church.

In one of his final epistles Paul wrote to Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Sorry, no date was given.

As for John, if he is still living. I don’t see that this would have any effect on the apostacy of the Church. Unless he is seceretly advising the Pope.

But yet, you cannot provide a date, other than a 250-300 year time span. Hardly convincing don’t you think?

You also fail to address the fact that your own “prophet” Hinckley stated that the Jesus of the Bible is not the jesus of whom he speaks.

Doesn’t that, in and of itself prove that mormons are **not **Christian?

You also haven’t addressed the whole apostasy after the death of the last apostle and John being immortal.

Kind of a weak branch to be sitting on don’t you think?

 

[LivingWaters7]

You also fail to address the fact that your own “prophet” Hinckley stated that the Jesus of the Bible is not the jesus of whom he speaks.

To be clear, he didn’t say that the Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of whom he speaks. He said that the “traditional Christ” is not the same Christ that he speaks of, meaning, they reject the traditional or “creedal” view of Christ. They don’t believe that that view of Christ is Biblical. He believes that the LDS view is the correct Jesus of the Bible, not the Trinitarian.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Probably the best evidence of the apostacy is the Nicene Council.

The council had been called by the Emperor Constantine to use the power of the state to force theological agreement among Christians. He believed that the Christian faith could become the “cement of the Empire” and found it imperative to quickly bring unity to the church. (Justo L. Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Volume 1: The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1984), 158-162.)

Constantine’s suggestion that Jesus was “of one substance with the Father” was presented to put to rest the Arian argument that belief in the divinity of both the Father and Jesus was polytheistic. The Arians believed that they were contending for the pure and absolute monotheism that had been affirmed in Hebrew Scripture and confirmed in Greek philosophy. (John Burnaby, The Belief of Christendom, A Commentary of the Nicene Creed (London National Society: SPCK, 1959), 73.)

The church established by Jesus was lead by apostles who were chosen by the Lord. These apostles received their authority from Jesus Christ by ordination. Apostles and prophets guided the church by revelation (Eph 3:3-5) and according to the writings of Paul, they should remain the foundation of the Lord’s church “till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.” (Eph. 4:13)

“And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of knowledge of the Son of God”(Eph. 4:1-13)

I don’t have much time for an in depth response, however I’ll just share a few thoughts:

1. The New Testament is clear on the conciliar nature of the Church, with the first council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts. The Catholic Church continues in that vein by having Councils, such as the Council of Nicaea.
2. Constantine’s role is often overemphasized. Further, the LDS dismay at Constantine being involved to any degree dismisses the Biblical evidence of political leaders (i.e. kings) being involved in religious matters.
3. The Catholic Church does not ignore your citation. Indeed, Councils are regarded as God-inspired gatherings, where, despite the realities of human sinfulness, boasting, etc, inspired decisions can be found, guided by the Holy Spirit, who has never left the Church. Catholics believe that our bishops exercise both the apostolic and prophetic offices (we all join with Christ in His office of Prophet, Priest, and King, through our baptism), not only having the very same apostolic authority held by the original Apostles, but can also receive guidance through the Holy Spirit in official doctrinal matters, such as through Ecumenical Councils, or the Pope’s Infallibility gift (which does not mean that he is completely incapable of being in error about something).
4. Catholics believe that the Trinity is found within the Bible. The Bible teaches that there is only one God, and also that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God, yet are also distinct from each other. That is the Trinity. What Ecumenical Councils do is formally and explicitly define dogmas, usually in the face of heresies, such as the Arian heresy.
5. Unfortunately, various LDS ideas about God are found nowhere in the Bible, nor the writings of the earliest Christians outside of the Bible. Things such as the Father being married to Heavenly Mother, the Father once being a man that progressed to Godhood, the Son and the Holy Spirit being literal spirit children of the Father and Heavenly Mother, etc are not to be found.

 

[cheezey]

Just a slight interjection:
I have a handbook to Christian Denominations in the US and it does not contain anything on the LDS or the 7DA.

Wondered why and perhaps I now know why.

 

[CarolNoel]

I don’t have much time for an in depth response, however I’ll just share a few thoughts:

1. The New Testament is clear on the conciliar nature of the Church, with the first council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts. The Catholic Church continues in that vein by having Councils, such as the Council of Nicaea.
2. Constantine’s role is often overemphasized. Further, the LDS dismay at Constantine being involved to any degree dismisses the Biblical evidence of political leaders (i.e. kings) being involved in religious matters.
3. The Catholic Church does not ignore your citation. Indeed, Councils are regarded as God-inspired gatherings, where, despite the realities of human sinfulness, boasting, etc, inspired decisions can be found, guided by the Holy Spirit, who has never left the Church. Catholics believe that our bishops exercise both the apostolic and prophetic offices (we all join with Christ in His office of Prophet, Priest, and King, through our baptism), not only having the very same apostolic authority held by the original Apostles, but can also receive guidance through the Holy Spirit in official doctrinal matters, such as through Ecumenical Councils, or the Pope’s Infallibility gift (which does not mean that he is completely incapable of being in error about something).
4. Catholics believe that the Trinity is found within the Bible. The Bible teaches that there is only one God, and also that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God, yet are also distinct from each other. That is the Trinity. What Ecumenical Councils do is formally and explicitly define dogmas, usually in the face of heresies, such as the Arian heresy.
5. Unfortunately, various LDS ideas about God are found nowhere in the Bible, nor the writings of the earliest Christians outside of the Bible. Things such as the Father being married to Heavenly Mother, the Father once being a man that progressed to Godhood, the Son and the Holy Spirit being literal spirit children of the Father and Heavenly Mother, etc are not to be found.

Great response.

 

[taylorf]

Unfortunately, various LDS ideas about God are found nowhere in the Bible, nor the writings of the earliest Christians outside of the Bible. Things such as the Father being married to Heavenly Mother, the Father once being a man that progressed to Godhood, the Son and the Holy Spirit being literal spirit children of the Father and Heavenly Mother, etc are not to be found.

Unfortunately, the LDS view of God isn’t found in the Book of Mormon either. In fact, the Book of Mormon leans more trinitarian than the current view of the Godhead. The LDS understanding of God, including the things you mention, all originate from the mind of Joseph Smith.

 

[JHow]

Unfortunately, the LDS view of God isn’t found in the Book of Mormon either. In fact, the Book of Mormon leans more trinitarian than the current view of the Godhead. The LDS understanding of God, including the things you mention, all originate from the mind of Joseph Smith.

Did you mean to imply that the BOM did not originate from the mind of Joseph Smith?

 

[SteveVH]

Did you mean to imply that the BOM did not originate from the mind of Joseph Smith?

Not the parts he lifted from the Bible.

 

[twopekinguys]

To be clear, he didn’t say that the Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of whom he speaks. He said that the “traditional Christ” is not the same Christ that he speaks of, meaning, they reject the traditional or “creedal” view of Christ. They don’t believe that that view of Christ is Biblical. He believes that the LDS view is the correct Jesus of the Bible, not the Trinitarian.

Ok, I’ll give you that one…lol

But…hehehe

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).

This one doesn’t make a distinction between the “Biblical” Jesus, and the “traditional” one.

 

[TexanKnight]

I have been around much longer than 20 years and I have always considered myself a Christian. When I was in the army in the 1960s we would discribe ourselves as Christian but not Protestant. It was in the 1980s that the “different Jesus,” “Mormons are not Christian” public movement became wide spread. The LDS position on this has never changed. We have always considered our selves Christians. We are glad to make it clear, however, that we are not trinitarians and don’t accept the God as discribed in the Nicene Creed.

then you were being dishonest

 

[TexanKnight]

These Biblical Scriptures came from Jesus and Paul.

So?

you keep using them for a point that does not exist from someone who believes in Smithian Morphed God

 

[TexanKnight]

That is the whole point of the apostasy. Christian (Catholic) doctrine comes from the creeds regardless of what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the Bible.

ah…but bread and water for as the Eucharist does? Stake presidents do? Bank con jobs do? Adulterous prophets do?

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes, I saw your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

I don’t understand the facination with finding a certain day for the apostacy. In my opinion, it occurred over a period of about 250 years, beginning before the apostles were killed and finalized at the nicene conference in 325 AD when bishops were required to sign the nicene creed or be banished from their cities. I believe there were many Christian Bishops that held to the truth but they were the leaders of local churches. Differences in doctrine developed over time until Contantine called the Bishops together for the council at Nicea to bring unity to the Church.

In one of his final epistles Paul wrote to Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Sorry, no date was given.

As for John, if he is still living. I don’t see that this would have any effect on the apostacy of the Church. Unless he is seceretly advising the Pope.

Ah…so it is such an important even and you have no date.

That says it all