Are Mormons Christians

[Boatswain2PA]

I believe Janderich gave his response in this post.

I completely missed his/her response…was looking for a response from MtOly.

Doesn’t sound like any sort of traditional Christian beliefs to me (monotheistic belief in an omnipotent loving God who sent his ONE son, Jesus Christ, to suffer for our salvation).

 

[mtolympus]

So, is it appropriate to specify which definition of the word “Christian” one is alluding to:
the dictionary one, the Nicene creed one, or the Biblical one?

Yes, if we are truly interested in understanding each others position. Unfortuantly, those who say there is only one definition (their definition), they are using it to exclude others.

In certain fundamentalist circles, Christian means “born again”. If you are not born again, you are not Christian.

I noticed in the 1980s, some fundamentalist groups apparently trying to corner the market on the term “Christian”. Using their own definition, they tried not only to exclude Mormons as Christians, but Catholics also!

 

[zaffiroborant]

Arius was a Christian. as defined in the dictionary, and as defined in the Bible. It’s just the Nicene Creed that cast him out of the ranks of Christians.

The Nicene Creed did not cast him out of the ranks of Christians, Arius was baptized a Christian and remained so even though he was a heretic.

 

[mtolympus]

I think what he’s referring to is the apparent evolution in Joseph Smith’s understanding of the nature of God. At the beginnings of the Restoration, his theology tends to be quite compatible with orthodox/traditional understandings of God. The Book of Mormon generally is compatible with the Trinitarian doctrine (though there are some Modalistic tendencies). Then of course there’s the Lectures on Faith, which seems Binitarian at times (for example, in response to the question “How many personages are there in the Godhead”? it says “Two: the Father and the Son”, and while elsewhere it does include the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead, it isn’t a “personage”, but the mind of the Father and the Son. Later, Joseph seems to have evolved into the plurality of gods perspective, as we see in the Book of Abraham, the King Follett Discourse, etc. Naturally there are different explanations for all of this, depending on the perspective you are coming from, but it is clear that Joseph Smith’s understanding of God evolved as time passed.

Thanks, I can better see where he is coming from. I am sure you are absolutely correct that Joseph Smith’s understanding of God evolved over time. How could it not?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Thanks, I can better see where he is coming from. I am sure you are absolutely correct that Joseph Smith’s understanding of God evolved over time. How could it not?

It is one thing for our own personal understanding of God to evolve. Mine certainly has.

It is another thing to create another entire theory of God for the sole purpose of convincing your wife to let you engage in polygamy.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Yes just like the Psalmist says, “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalms 82:6) Does a chicken grow up to be a horse? Does a dog grow up to be a fish? Are we children of God or not? Search inside yourself and see, it is the plainest logic that a child becomes like his parent.

I believe God used to be man like us. Yes, perhaps even a sinful man. I disagree with your comment about God being exalted simply for being “good”. However, I do not deny the power of God nor the divinity in man.

And John the Beloved, (the one who according to you, asked and got to stay to this day) says:

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And Paul says:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So we have the words of one psalmist, and the words of two apostles. If the OT understanding was correct why do we have two apostles expounding further (and incorrectly according to LDS doctrine) on the subject?

 

[mtolympus]

I will ask it a third time:

To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you. Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods? Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??

OK, I will try to present my understanding the law of eternal progression. Everything except quoted scripture is my personal understanding and speculation. These are my own views from study of the scriptures and are not from any official LDS Church source.

When non-LDS talk of the Mormon God or gods they are usually referring to the law of eternal progression. They qoute Joseph Smith who said: “As man is God once was was, as God is man may become.” In other words God Our Father had a Father, and we, His children, may become like Him!

When LDS speak of God we are always speaking of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

In the Doctrine and Covenants we learn that there are two things about God that are eternal: 1- The glory of God. 2- The power and priesthood of God.

1- What is the glory of God? “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth.” (D&C 93:29) “The glory of God is intelligence or, in other words, light and truth.” (D&C 93:36)

2- The power and priesthood of God is also eternal: “Which (the Melchizedek) priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations and is without beginning of days or end of years” (D&C 84:17)

From the beginning there is only one truth (which is the glory of God), and one Melchizedek priesthood (which is the power of God) therefore from the beginning there is only one God. However, the personification and progress of God and man is an eternal process. This seems to explain how three persons can be one eternal God:

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

 

[vsedriver]

Does polytheism refer to recognizing that there is more than one god, but that there is a godhead? If we chose to worship the godhead only, but acknowledge that there are other lesser gods, is that still polytheism?

 

[Janderich]

I completely missed his/her response…was looking for a response from MtOly.

Doesn’t sound like any sort of traditional Christian beliefs to me (monotheistic belief in an omnipotent loving God who sent his ONE son, Jesus Christ, to suffer for our salvation).

Jesus is unique in that he is the only begotten of God in the flesh. But all people on this earth are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of God. In other words, they were literally God’s offspring (Acts 17:28) when we lived as spirits before this earth life.

 

[Janderich]

And John the Beloved, (the one who according to you, asked and got to stay to this day) says:

And Paul says:

So we have the words of one psalmist, and the words of two apostles. If the OT understanding was correct why do we have two apostles expounding further (and incorrectly according to LDS doctrine) on the subject?

We have the words of many more, but to answer your question we are not physically begotten of God (as is obvious). We must physically be adopted into God’s family. We are adopted through ordinances and keeping covenants. Thus Jesus said of those who would not obey the Father, “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, we be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8: 41-43).

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, if we are truly interested in understanding each others position. Unfortuantly, those who say there is only one definition (their definition), they are using it to exclude others.

We understand your position just as we understand the position of Jews and Hindus. There of millions of non-Catholic Christians which we recognize as Christian. There are also religions which were invented in a Christian culture that want to be thought of as Christian but they are not; Mormonism is one of them.

 

[Stephen168]

Does polytheism refer to recognizing that there is more than one god, but that there is a godhead? If we chose to worship the godhead only, but acknowledge that there are other lesser gods, is that still polytheism?

yes that is polytheism. Some have also said Mormons are more accurately called henotheist. They believe on more than one God but only worship one.

When we say “Hail Mary”, are we worshipping the Virgin Mary,

No

and does she thereby become a lesser goddess?

No, she a created being like the rest of humanity. God is not created.

Christians are not polytheists like Mormons.

 

[Stephen168]

Thanks, I can better see where he is coming from. I am sure you are absolutely correct that Joseph Smith’s understanding of God evolved over time. How could it not?

A ‘prophet’ of God would know who God is and not change him into a created being and one of many. That is how he could not.

 

[nmgauss]

We have the words of many more, but to answer your question we are not physically begotten of God (as is obvious). We must physically be adopted into God’s family. We are adopted through ordinances and keeping covenants. Thus Jesus said of those who would not obey the Father, “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, we be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8: 41-43).

The idea of “son of God” as written in the OT is meant as “adopted son”.

2 Samuel 7:13 “He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

 

[gazelam]

I will ask it a third time:

To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you.

Fire away!

Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods?

Yes. We are offspring of God The Father (as is God the Son). Children grow up to be like their parents. Note Romans 8:17 (KJV) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. The righteous will clearly receive everything that Jesus received. Whatever state Jesus is in we can attain.

Also, the doctrine of the Trinity seems to me to be a very limiting theology. My understanding is that it assumes that an all-powerful God is powerless to put in place any process to results in another being like Him.

Here are a few ECF quotes supporting the believe that we can become ontologically as God.

Irenaeus - We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 4, chapter 38, in The Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, vol. 1 of Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 522.

Irenaeus - Passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses (Irenaeus Against Heresies), book 5, chapter 36, in vol. 1, The Apostolic Fathers, 567.

Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.” . . . For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:38 (4)

Clement of Alexandria - Being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), book 7, chapter 10, in Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire), vol. 2 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 539.

Clement of Alexandria - Knowing God, he will be made like God. . . . And that man becomes God, since God so wills.

Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus (The Instructor), book 3, chapter 1, in vol. 2, Fathers of the Second Century, 271;

Hippolytus - And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ. . . . For thou hast become God: . . . thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality.

Hippolytus, Philosophumena (The Refutation of All Heresies), book 10, chapter 30, in Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix, vol. 5 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 153

Cyprian - What Christ is, we Christians shall be, if we imitate Christ.

Cyprian, “On the Vanity of Idols,” The Treatises of Cyprian, 6:15, in vol. 5, Fathers of the Third Century, 469.

Origen - The true God [referring to the Father], then, is ‘The God,’ and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype.

Origen, Commentary on John, 2:2, in The Gospel of Peter, the Diatessaron of Tatian, vol. 9 of Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 323.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria - [God] was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.

Athanasius, Orationes Contra Arianus (Four Discourses Against the Arians), 1.39, 3.34, in St. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters, vol. 4 of A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church: Second Series, ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1978–79), 329, 413

And for good measure, I’ll quote CCC 460…

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??

When you say “our God”, are you referring to God the Father or God the Son? In general the LDS belief is that God the Father was not always the God the Father. As far as being “given this universe” LDS believe that this universe was created by Jesus Christ out of existing matter under the direction of God the Father.

I hope this helps…

 

[Stephen168]

Yes.

Which is why Mormons are not Christians.

 

[Porknpie]

And for good measure, I’ll quote CCC 460…

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

Gazelam -

The Catechism of the Catholic Church in the present form was published in 1992. You can read a little bit about its history here.

Catholics believe 100%, 100%, what is written above, but the Catholic Church is not saying that we will progress to and become a God. The Catholic Church from the beginning, inclusive of St. Peter, the ECF’s and what is written in the Catechism are all saying that we will be partakers of God’s divine nature, that will see see him face to face forever and our human nature will be transformed by God’s grace.

St Peter below (2 Peter 1)

4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.[a]

PnP

 

[gazelam]

Gazelam -

The Catechism of the Catholic Church in the present form was published in 1992. You can read a little bit about its history here.

Catholics believe 100%, 100%, what is written above, but the Catholic Church is not saying that we will progress to and become a God. The Catholic Church from the beginning, inclusive of St. Peter, the ECF’s and what is written in the Catechism are all saying that we will be partakers of God’s divine nature, that will see see him face to face forever and our human nature will be transformed by God’s grace.

St Peter below (2 Peter 1)

4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.[a]

PnP

PnP,
I’ve been looking at this forum long enough to know that the Catholic interpretation of CCC 460 does not support the LDS view of this matter even though on the surface it may appear to. Hence the smiley face… However, the person I responded to may not even have known such a statement was in the CCC and now does and will be more informed next time the topic arises.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

…
Yes. We are offspring of God The Father (as is God the Son). Children grow up to be like their parents…the doctrine of the Trinity seems to me to be a very limiting theology. My understanding is that it assumes that an all-powerful God is powerless to put in place any process to results in another being like Him…I

When you say “our God”, are you referring to God the Father or God the Son? In general the LDS belief is that God the Father was not always the God the Father. As far as being “given this universe” LDS believe that this universe was created by Jesus Christ out of existing matter under the direction of God the Father.

I hope this helps…

Sorry man, quoting the bible won’t tell me what your beliefs are. I’ve seen/heard too many other folks, including avowed satanists, quote the holy bible in ways that made their point of view valid.

Your last paragraph, however, sums it up. You think God wasn’t always God. Therefore your understanding of Jesus Christ is far different than true Christian religions, who believe there is ONE God, who has divided himself into the trinity. The belief that humans, through certain acts (approved by the LDS), can attain deity status, precludes you from being considered Christians.

Bottom line is the LDS heresy was created by one guy who simply wanted to convince his wife to have a threesome so he lied about some golden tablets. Contrary to the “real” Gospels and catholic tradition, there is not a single bit of “independent” evidence supporting the supposed “revelations” that JS claims he received on those golden tablets (which, of course, nobody has ever actually seen).

It’s a sham.

 

[mtolympus]

We understand your position just as we understand the position of Jews and Hindus. There of millions of non-Catholic Christians which we recognize as Christian. There are also religions which were invented in a Christian culture that want to be thought of as Christian but they are not; Mormonism is one of them.

Yes, according to your definition (definition #2) we are not Christians that is fine. And I agree we are not Catholics and we are not heretics (arians and protestants?). If you have suggestions that would make definition #2 more accurate, please let me know- after all, it is your definition.

Never-the-less, we are Christians according to the English language dictionary which is less judgemental that your definition. No one can deny we are Chistians according to definition #1. Hopefully we are also Christians by defininition #3 which is not based on dogma but rather how we act as individuals or perhaps as a group.

1. The dictionary definition: “Christian - A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.”

Mormons fit the dictionary definition of Christian. They did not write this definition, it is part of the English Language. Many Mormons don’t know there is any other definition and therefore don’t understand why some do not considered them to be Christian.

1. The Trinitarian definition: Those who believe in the triune God as described in the Nicene creed. This is the official definition of “Christian” of the Catholic Church and many of the protestant churches. This is OK. Mormons do not believe in the triune God and therefore when they understand the trinitarian definition, they will agree they are not trinitarian Christians.
2. The Biblical definition: This definition is put together using three verses from the Bible. The first tells us that a Christian is a disciple of Christ. The other verses tells us how we can know a disciple of Christ in the words of Jesus Himself:

“And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch”. (Acts 11:26). “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”. (John 13:35) “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.” (John 8:31)