Are Mormons Christians

[LivingWaters7]

We Mormons are full-blown non-Trinitarian Christians.

Let’s just disabuse the notion that to be Christian one must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Harper’s Bible Dictionary states: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

Matthew 27 (KJV)

*51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.*

Clearly, not a single Trinitarian was to be found among these resurrected early Christian Saints.

Can you please provide the surrounding context of the statement in Harper’s Bible Dictionary? Thank you.

Also, when discussing theology, and using theological works like a Bible Dictionary, one must understand the specific words that are being used, such as “formal doctrine”. It is clear that the Bible is not a catechism. While foundational beliefs and teachings are certainly found in the Bible, many times there is not one verse that one can point to and say “there is the verse that teaches the full blown nature of God”, or “there is the verse that teaches the complete understanding of the atonement”, etc. Trinitarians believe that the Trinity doctrine is most certainly found throughout the Bible (the belief in three distinct Persons who are not each other, and are of the same divine nature, therefore “one God”, and there is only one God), and from the writings of the earliest Christians outside of the Bible, we find further evidence of the ancient and apostolic origins of the doctrine. What happened in later centuries was the formal defining and making explicit of the Trinity doctrine, most especially when the Church was confronted by various heretical notions about God (which were many times also supported by their believers with reference to scripture).

What is also clear is that unfortunately, the earliest Christians did not hold to the modern LDS understanding of God. Now, some LDS apologists will reference writings from the early Church Fathers and the Bible that point to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost not being each other, or being distinct from each other. Unfortunately for them, traditional Christians also agree that They are not each other. What we don’t see in the Bible, nor in the writings of the earliest Christians, is the belief that the Father is married to Heavenly Mother, that the Father progressed to Godhood, etc.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I am, because that is what “formal doctrine” means. The Church has held many beliefs as true without having them formally defined. In fact, a doctrine was usually never fully defined until it was challenged by heretics. That is when councils were formed and doctrines defined for the most part, in order to leave no doubt as to the teaching of the Church.

By the way, I see that you are new to CAF and just wanted to say welcome.

Thanks for the welcome!

I see what you’re saying. I wasn’t using formal doctrine in that sense, though, Steve. I was responding to the aforementioned statement by the LDS poster that, “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as defined by the councils is not found in the New Testament.” This seemed to be arguing that the doctrine as stated by the councils was invented by the councils, rather than being based on anything in the NT.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity? Neither do many Protestants, and many more will at least concede that it is not a necessary doctrine. Most of those who do believe it do not have any understanding other than phrases such as “three yet one” or “three in one” (which, taken by itself, sound like modalism). When did the definition of “Christian” become “believes in the Trinity?” What about all the other essential doctrines of faith that Protestants reject? Pardon me if I say the application of this term seems inconsistent to my eyes.

 

[jediliz]

They have a small semblance of Trinitarian belief, but faith in Christ like we do. They’re Christian.

Their baptism is considered invalid. They believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. They believe the Church went into apostasy when the last apostle died.

No, they might believe in some things that are Christian like, but many of their beliefs are contradictory to early Christianity.

 

[gazelam]

Believing in Christ is not enough (SHOCKING AS THAT SOUNDS!), but to be
a Christian, one must follow certain tenets that make a Christian a Christian.

• Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe in ONE GOD, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Fall was bad, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Bible is inerrant, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe Christ suffered for sin on the Cross, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Cross is a wonderful sign of faith, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that Jesus is our only High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that, although people can have the gift of prophecy, there will be no more new prophets, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that wine and unleavened bread should be the representing elements of Jesus’ body and blood, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe not only that there is only ONE GOD, but that God has always been God, even that Jesus Christ
  is the same yesterday and today and forever, and that God is God from Eternity unto Eternity, Mormons do not.

Those are a few tenants of the top of my head, I’m sure there are more, but do we really need to ask this anymore?

Does any church even have a canonized list of what makes a Christian a Christian? Does the so-called criteria defining a Christian include issues that divide Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, such as, the primacy of Rome, sola scriptura, sola fide, and purgatory?

Here is a quick rebuttal of some of the items above…

• Christians believe that the Bible is inerrant, Mormons do not.

LDS 8th Article of Faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

• Christians believe Christ suffered for sin on the Cross, Mormons do not.

LDS believe that between the suffering on Gethsemane and on the cross Christ’s atonement was wrought for all. LDS certainly believe that without the cross there would have been no atonement.

• Christians believe that, although people can have the gift of prophecy, there will be no more new prophets, Mormons do not.

Are you saying that Christians do not believe Revelation 11:3, 10 (KJV)

1. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
2. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And what about poor old Moses? Do we just discard his wishes?

Numbers 11:29 (KJV)

And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

• Christians believe not only that there is only ONE GOD, but that God has always been God, even that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever, and that God is God from Eternity unto Eternity, Mormons do not.

LDS do believe that Christ has changes. After all, he was born, he died, and he was resurrected. If that isn’t change, I don’t know what is! We do believe that Jesus is unchanging in his righteous desires.

• Christians believe in ONE GOD, Mormons do not.

If I have time later I may dig up some ECF quotes about Jesus being a second God, but no promises…

 

[Per_Crucem]

Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity? Neither do many Protestants, and many more will at least concede that it is not a necessary doctrine. Most of those who do believe it do not have any understanding other than phrases such as “three yet one” or “three in one” (which, taken by itself, sound like modalism). When did the definition of “Christian” become “believes in the Trinity?” What about all the other essential doctrines of faith that Protestants reject? Pardon me if I say the application of this term seems inconsistent to my eyes.

Neither do many Protestants? Only 99% of non-Catholic churches. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Oneness Pentecostals. That’s hardly many.

 

[superwimp]

Hello Gazelam,
This is slightly off topic. When I left the LDS church I joined the Church of Christ (temple lot) group. While my understanding of our purpose here has evolved over the years, I'm still a member of that church. Does the LDS church consider me to be a Mormon?

 

[LivingWaters7]

*]Christians believe that, although people can have the gift of prophecy, there will be no more new prophets, Mormons do not.

If someone has the gift of prophecy, then they are prophets. The Catholic Church has had many prophets and prophetesses, visionaries, etc throughout its history. However, none of them supersede the Revelation of Christ and His self-revelation of God (the ultimate form of Divine revelation). There will be no more new “Public Revelation” (i.e. what is necessary for salvation, which has been the same since the New Testament times), however there has been continuous inspiration and revelation, many times through people that can be regarded as prophets and prophetesses.

*]Christians believe that wine and unleavened bread should be the representing elements of Jesus’ body and blood, Mormons do not.

Not all that are regarded as “Christians” believe that wine and unleavened bread should be the “representing elements”. Many Protestants do not use wine nor unleavened bread. Also, Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox use leavened bread.

It may also be important to note that the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is the most ancient Christian understanding of the Eucharist, as we see in the ECFs (the same ECFs that some LDS apologists attempt to cherry pick quotes to support their unique positions), and in the most ancient Christian churches (whether in Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Ethiopia, India, etc).

*]Christians believe not only that there is only ONE GOD, but that God has always been God, even that Jesus Christ
is the same yesterday and today and forever, and that God is God from Eternity unto Eternity, Mormons do not.

Yes. The belief that God the Father progressed to Godhood is found nowhere in the Bible, nor in the writings of the earliest Christians.

Also, it’s important to be specific as to what is unchanging about God. His Divine nature, His Godhood, is unchanging. God has always been God. God has eternally existed as three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He did not progress to God. He was not a man that learned how to be God after being not-God. God the Son incarnated on this earth, however that was not a change in His Divinity, as He always was and always will be fully God.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This one I don’t get. They believe in the Trinity, ipso facto they are Christian. Am I missing something? Even Catholic Answers puts them in the Christian category: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-seventh-day-adventism-a-cult

My error, I was thinking of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Linus2nd

 

[RebeccaJ]

Does any church even have a canonized list of what makes a Christian a Christian? Does the so-called criteria defining a Christian include issues that divide Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, such as, the primacy of Rome, sola scriptura, sola fide, and purgatory?

Through the ages, heresies have arisen which the Church has refuted via ecumenical councils. Heretics and schismatic still adhere to the Christian faith, which most certainly has been defined. Having been done so hundreds of years ago in response to heresies.

Mormonism is not a schismatic or heretical belief system. Not of the same vine, but entirely something other.

If I have time later I may dig up some ECF quotes about Jesus being a second God, but no promises…

And what authority are you turning to, to understand the faith of the ECF? What context are you placing them in?

Trinitarian doctrine is very clear. There is One God, and you will find no ECF who claims otherwise.

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

They speak of three PERSONS, but never forsake God’s name of Himself, “I AM”. Mormons insist God meant to say His name is, “WE ARE”.

Rejection of the Holy Trinity is what makes the Mormon church a non-Christian church, as the Mormon church rejects the God Who Christians worship.

 

[bzkoss236]

Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity? Neither do many Protestants, and many more will at least concede that it is not a necessary doctrine. Most of those who do believe it do not have any understanding other than phrases such as “three yet one” or “three in one” (which, taken by itself, sound like modalism). When did the definition of “Christian” become “believes in the Trinity?” What about all the other essential doctrines of faith that Protestants reject? Pardon me if I say the application of this term seems inconsistent to my eyes.

Those Protestant churches that don’t believe in the Trinity are also not considered Christians and their baptisms are not valid.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If someone has the gift of prophecy, then they are prophets. The Catholic Church has had many prophets and prophetesses, visionaries, etc throughout its history. However, none of them supersede the Revelation of Christ and His self-revelation of God (the ultimate form of Divine revelation). There will be no more new “Public Revelation” (i.e. what is necessary for salvation, which has been the same since the New Testament times), however there has been continuous inspiration and revelation, many times through people that can be regarded as prophets and prophetesses.

Prophets, with a capital “P” if that helps. The OT, called the Law and the Prophets, is fulfilled in the New Covenant, Who is Jesus Christ. He is our Prophet, High Priest and King. Any prophet, from NT forward, is not proclaiming something new, given to us by God as in OT Testament times, but is sharing in the prophetic ministry of Jesus Christ. This Prophetic ministry is given by Jesus to the Apostles: go forth and preach the Kingdom of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel being the Good News. Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.

All the baptized share in the prophetic nature of Jesus, just as we share in His Priesthood and Kingship. Some are given the gift of prophecy, as you are addressing very well. Which is also sharing in the prophetic nature of Jesus. All starts with and is centered on Him.

Every person who has ever received a Christian baptism, is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus Christ. The last Prophet was John the Baptist. Christ is the New Moses. Salvation for all is fulfilled in Him.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Can anyone direct me to anything official from the Catholic church on the matter?

I tried here, but it ended up not providing any sources at all.

I mean, I hear you all presenting evidence and reasons. I’m just wondering if any Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, or authoritative assembly has actually had anything to specifically say on the matter.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Can anyone direct me to anything official from the Catholic church on the matter?

I tried here, but it ended up not providing any sources at all.

I mean, I hear you all presenting evidence and reasons. I’m just wondering if any Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, or authoritative assembly has actually had anything to specifically say on the matter.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-navarrete_en.html

ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

LDS 8th Article of Faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

"…as far as it is translated correctly…", Mormon’s thus don’t believe in the Bible, they don’t even fully trust Joseph’s Smith’s corrupt version of it. Bible says there is only ONE GOD, Mormon’s say, “That isn’t true.”

LDS believe that between the suffering on Gethsemane and on the cross Christ’s atonement was wrought for all. LDS certainly believe that without the cross there would have been no atonement.

Mormon DOCTRINE doesn’t say that. Christians believe that Christ suffered in both the garden and on the cross, but for sin it was on the cross, but Mormon DOCTRINE actually belittles the cross, calling it only a brutal form of execution and hold no honor for it.

Are you saying that Christians do not believe Revelation 11:3, 10 (KJV)
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And what about poor old Moses? Do we just discard his wishes?
Numbers 11:29 (KJV)
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Well first Revelation, that is written for the end times, which did come in the 1830, and the two prophets are already identified by CHRISTIAN belief as *probably *Enoch and Elijah.
Numbers was written for the Old Covenant, you are taking it out of context.

LDS do believe that Christ has changes. After all, he was born, he died, and he was resurrected. If that isn’t change, I don’t know what is! We do believe that Jesus is unchanging in his righteous desires.

Even though the Bible says otherwise, which again is an indicator that Mormons do not believe in the Bible.

If I have time later I may dig up some ECF quotes about Jesus being a second God, but no promises…

Okay, challenge accepted, but don’t go for John 1:1, we already have a good understanding of it.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for the welcome!

I see what you’re saying. I wasn’t using formal doctrine in that sense, though, Steve. I was responding to the aforementioned statement by the LDS poster that, “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as defined by the councils is not found in the New Testament.” This seemed to be arguing that the doctrine as stated by the councils was invented by the councils, rather than being based on anything in the NT.

I understand. But what Gazelam was using as an argument is no argument at all because no one has ever claimed that formal doctrine is found in the Bible. The statement he read was true; there is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible, but it does not support his assertion that therefore the doctrine of the Trinity is bogus. That’s my point.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormons are not Christian by the same manner the Christians are not Jewish.

The view of God is very different in both instances

 

[gazelam]

Hello Gazelam,

 This is slightly off topic.  When I left the LDS church I joined the Church of Christ (temple lot) group.  While my understanding of our purpose here has evolved over the years, I'm still a member of that church.  Does the LDS church consider me to be a Mormon?

Hey superwimp,
If you were not excommunicated from the LDS Church and did not request that your name be removed from the records of the LDS Church, you are considered a “member of record”, or in other words the LDS Church sees you as having joined and never left.

 

[gazelam]

"…as far as it is translated correctly…", Mormon’s thus don’t believe in the Bible, they don’t even fully trust Joseph’s Smith’s corrupt version of it. Bible says there is only ONE GOD, Mormon’s say, “That isn’t true.”

There are 5700 known variations of the Greek New Testament. None of those manuscripts are original. (Bart Erhman’s book “Misquoting Jesus” provides an excellent description on the state of NT textual scholarship.) It doesn’t seem a stretch to say that an error or two may have crept in over the millennia. LDS believe that the words of the biblical authors were inspired at the time they were written. And yes, we’re grateful to all of those who preserved and compiled what we have today.

 

[gazelam]

Mormon DOCTRINE doesn’t say that. Christians believe that Christ suffered in both the garden and on the cross, but for sin it was on the cross, but Mormon DOCTRINE actually belittles the cross, calling it only a brutal form of execution and hold no honor for it.

I’ve never heard any LDS teaching belittling Christ suffering on the cross. LDS believe that the cruxificxion wasn’t the only component in the atonement. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Isaiah 49:16 (KJV) “Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands…” is a nice concise statement showing the importance (and clearly lots and lots of honor) of Christ’s crucifixion in our lives.