Are Mormons Christians

[taylorf]

**Stephen,

Since you know what Christians believe about Jesus I am wondering if you could tell me if these scriptures from the Bible would be considered to be “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”? Sorry to repeat, but I am surprised that no one has been willing to answered this yet.**

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

Quoting scripture alone isn’t going to get you anywhere, and I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Doctrine isn’t defined by verses of scripture, but through the interpretation of those verses. I could use those verses to make a variety of arguments for either Christian/Mormon doctrinal position, depending on whether I base it on 1) sola scriptura; 2) sacred scripture + tradition; or 3) scripture + Joseph Smith interpretation + “modern revelation”.

You know that no matter what scripture or quotes you provide, the LDS interpretation and belief is that salvation is provided through the atonement of Christ AFTER our works merit it. It’s conditional and covers only what we couldn’t do on our own. The parable of bicycle illustrates this point. I was repeatedly taught this story going through high school.

Using your same approach, can you tell me if the following verses are considered “Christian Doctrine” or “Mormon Doctrine:”

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

 

[eddie_too]

christians do not need the teachings of joseph smith to be saved.

do mormons need the teachings of joseph smith to be saved?

 

[iepuras]

Quoting scripture alone isn’t going to get you anywhere, and I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Doctrine isn’t defined by verses of scripture, but through the interpretation of those verses. I could use those verses to make a variety of arguments for either Christian/Mormon doctrinal position, depending on whether I base it on 1) sola scriptura; 2) sacred scripture + tradition; or 3) scripture + Joseph Smith interpretation + “modern revelation”.

You know that no matter what scripture or quotes you provide, the LDS interpretation and belief is that salvation is provided through the atonement of Christ AFTER our works merit it. It’s conditional and covers only what we couldn’t do on our own. The parable of bicycle illustrates this point. I was repeatedly taught this story going through high school.

Using your same approach, can you tell me if the following scriptures are “Christian Doctrine” or “Mormon Doctrine”:

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Thank you!

The problem is that Mormons and traditional Christians are speaking two different languages. They use the same words with two entirely different meanings.

The Mormon Heavenly Father/God the Father is not the same as the Christian God the Father. The Mormon Jesus Christ is not the same as the Christian Jesus Christ. The Mormon Holy Ghost is not the same as the Christian Holy Spirit.

This is similar to the Mormon apologetic that suggests that the horses in the Book of Mormon are actually tapirs. The word “horse” is the same but the apologetic excuse (tapir) is vastly different than the common understanding of “horse”.

This is why these threads seem to go in circles all the time. I’m getting dizzy!

 

[agnosticscience]

Do Mormons consider themselves polytheists or monotheists?

 

[Stephen168]

Since you know what Christians believe about Jesus I am wondering if you could tell me if these scriptures from the Bible would be considered to be “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?

I said Christians know who Jesus is (as taught by the Twelve); Mormons do not. Therefore, they are not Christian.

People who share Christian beliefs are not necessarily Christian (i.e. Christians teach we should not murder, but believing that one should not murder does not make one a Christian.)

The New Testament canon was established by the Catholic Church and it is the Catholic Church that interprets its meaning.

Bible quotes do not equal ‘Doctrine’ so your question doesn’t make any sense to me. I will say that the New Testament is consistent with Catholic teaching; after all it is a Catholic book. I don’t know all Mormon teachings of yesterday and today, but I do know that Mormonism rejects the Eucharist, and who Christ is, as taught in the New Testament by John the Apostle; and as taught by the Catholic Church to this day.

 

[mtolympus]

Quoting scripture alone isn’t going to get you anywhere, and I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Doctrine isn’t defined by verses of scripture, but through the interpretation of those verses. I could use those verses to make a variety of arguments for either Christian/Mormon doctrinal position, depending on whether I base it on 1) sola scriptura; 2) sacred scripture + tradition; or 3) scripture + Joseph Smith interpretation + “modern revelation”.

I quote the Bible because I thought Chritians believed the Bible. Any one who really wants to know what Christians taught before the apostacy should study the Bible, not the nicene creed. Studying the teachings of Bible is the best way to find evidence of the apostacy.

You know that no matter what scripture or quotes you provide, the LDS interpretation and belief is that salvation is provided through the atonement of Christ AFTER our works merit it. It’s conditional and covers only what we couldn’t do on our own. The parable of bicycle illustrates this point. I was repeatedly taught this story going through high school.

That is because we teach the true Christain Gospel! When Christ sent out his disciples out into the world did he tell them them to “teach the world to don’t worry be happy”? Or did He tell them that they should they go out “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”? (Matt. 28:20)

Using your same approach, can you tell me if the following verses are considered “Christian Doctrine” or “Mormon Doctrine:”

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

I will gladly answer your question. This is “Christian doctrine” and it is also “Mormon doctrine.” And, I might add, that this is possibly the first time I have seen this doctrine accurately portrayed on CAF. Thank you. (Please notice however that none of the quotes above say that Jesus is one substance with the Father. That is from the nicene creed.)

So, now will you would you like to answer my question?

Do you consider these quotes from the Bible to be “Mormon doctrine” or “Christian doctrine”?

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

 

[SteveVH]

I quote the Bible because I thought Chritians believed the Bible. Any one who really wants to know what Christians taught before the apostacy should study the Bible, not the nicene creed. Studying the teachings of Bible is the best way to find evidence of the apostacy.

Except that the Bible came into being after the alleged apostasy and the canon thereof was discerned by the apostate Church. Why do you trust anything that is in it?

So, now will you would you like to answer my question?

Do you consider these quotes from the Bible to be “Mormon doctrine” or “Christian doctrine”?

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

Christian (when properly understood and interpreted according to the faith from which the Bible came).

The fact that Joseph Smith borrowed from the Bible does not translate into Mormon doctrine being biblical. It is the interpretation, not the inclusion, of Bible verses that matters.

 

[SteveVH]

This is “Christian doctrine” and it is also “Mormon doctrine.” And, I might add, that this is possibly the first time I have seen this doctrine accurately portrayed on CAF. Thank you. (Please notice however that none of the quotes above say that Jesus is one substance with the Father. That is from the nicene creed.)

Neither does it say that they are one by reason of purpose only. That they are one in being or substance is found materially in the Scriptures and explained formally in doctrine, as demonstrated in the creeds.

But you are giving a false impression of the Mormon position. You do not believe in one eternal God. Your entire theology of progression rejects that notion outright. You believe in many Gods and even believe that the God you worship has a God above him. Please. The Mormon faith is polytheistic at its core.

 

[Stephen168]

I quote the Bible because I thought Chritians believed the Bible. Any one who really wants to know what Christians taught before the apostacy should study the Bible, not the nicene creed. Studying the teachings of Bible is the best way to find evidence of the apostacy.

The Nicene Creed is consistent with the Bible. From the Bible we know that Joseph Smith led his followers into apostasy when he changed the Christian teaching on who Christ is, in 1844.

That is because we teach the true Christain Gospel

Gospel mean Good News. Mormonism may have good news, but it is not Christian.

 

[iepuras]

christians do not need the teachings of joseph smith to be saved.

do mormons need the teachings of joseph smith to be saved?

A temple recommend is a sign that someone is “worthy” to enter into the Mormon temple, which is considered to be the house of the Lord and representative of heaven on earth. In order to obtain a recommend, one must accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and affirm belief that he is the prophet of God who restored the true church, saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, etc. Yes, Mormons do need to believe the teachings of Joseph Smith to be saved.

 

[Stephen168]

So, now will you would you like to answer my question?

Your question has been answered.

Bible quotes do not equal ‘Doctrine’ so your question doesn’t make any sense to me. I will say that the New Testament is consistent with Catholic teaching; after all it is a Catholic book.

And answered again and shown to be irrelevant.

Quoting scripture alone isn’t going to get you anywhere, and I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Doctrine isn’t defined by verses of scripture, but through the interpretation of those verses. I could use those verses to make a variety of arguments for either Christian/Mormon doctrinal position, depending on whether I base it on 1) sola scriptura; 2) sacred scripture + tradition; or 3) scripture + Joseph Smith interpretation + “modern revelation”.

 

[TexanKnight]

A temple recommend is a sign that someone is “worthy” to enter into the Mormon temple, which is considered to be the house of the Lord and representative of heaven on earth. In order to obtain a recommend, one must accept the teachings of Joseph Smith and affirm belief that he is the prophet of God who restored the true church, saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, etc. Yes, Mormons do need to believe the teachings of Joseph Smith to be saved.

you also need to pay your tithing. If not, you can’t go to temple and so can’t go to heaven.

in other words, you must pay money to go heaven

 

[SteveVH]

you also need to pay your tithing. If not, you can’t go to temple and so can’t go to heaven.

in other words, you must pay money to go heaven

Yikes!

 

[Stephen168]

you also need to pay your tithing. If not, you can’t go to temple and so can’t go to heaven.

in other words, you must pay money to go heaven

And Mormons think that is Good News

 

[taylorf]

you also need to pay your tithing. If not, you can’t go to temple and so can’t go to heaven.

in other words, you must pay money to go heaven

Also, tithing is a form of payment for forgiveness of sins.

From the church handbook of instructions:

“A person who is disfellowshipped is still a member of the Church but is no longer in good standing…A person who is disfellowshipped may not hold a temple recommend, serve in a Church position, or exercise the priesthood in any way. He should be encouraged to attend public Church meetings if his conduct is orderly, but he may not give a talk, offer a public prayer, partake of the sacrament, or participate in the sustaining of Church officers.”

However…

“Disfellowshipped members are encouraged to pay tithes and offerings…”

So, you have no status and are treated as outcast, yet…give us your money.

 

[twopekinguys]

I quote the Bible because I thought Chritians believed the Bible. Any one who really wants to know what Christians taught before the apostacy should study the Bible, not the nicene creed. Studying the teachings of Bible is the best way to find evidence of the apostacy.

So, when was the “apostasy”?

Give us a date.

Once you give us a date, we can determine what was taught before, or after the so called “apostasy”.

I’m going to help you out here. No mormon has EVER been able to provide that date, so, I’m sure we are all anxiously awaiting your answer.



I’m going to help you out even more here. Many mormons have said it was “after the death of the last apostle.” Again, no date, so I’m anxiously awaiting the date you’re going to give us.



Since I’m in such a generous mood today, I’m going to help you out even more!!!

We have been told that John did not die, but, still walks the Earth. Can you give us the date of John’s death?

I’m getting so excited, I can hardly wait for your answer!!!

But!! (you knew that was coming right?) If John didn’t die, then the apostasy could not have happened because the last apostle didn’t die right?

Please, please, please give us the date of the apostasy!!!

 

[twopekinguys]

That is because we teach the true Christain Gospel! When Christ sent out his disciples out into the world did he tell them them to “teach the world to don’t worry be happy”? Or did He tell them that they should they go out “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”? (Matt. 28:20)

Does this include the “Milk before Meat” approach that mormons use, along with outright deceptions that missionaries use?

Where is polygamy taught in the gospels? I must have missed that?

Purposely leaving out information is considered deception. Purposely twisting the Gospel is deception.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, there is Christian speak, and there is mormon speak. Mormons are notorious for using their own definitions for words as opposed what is commonly used, as iepuras has so graciously pointed out.

 

[Stephen168]

So, when was the “apostasy”?

Give us a date.

Once you give us a date, we can determine what was taught before, or after the so called “apostasy”.

Church leadership were polygamist before the great apostasy and celibate after. Except for Christ and the Apostles who were celibate before, so that doesn’t make sense. I’m thinking Joseph Smith just made it up.

 

[StraitGateSheep]

Hello,

A christian most know ceratin things.

Isa.8
[20] To the LAW (?) and to the Testimony (?)
if they (any people) speak not according to this Word,
it is because there is NO light (from GOD) in them.

A Christain must be of the NEW creation.

A Christian must know how to successfull return to GOD.

There is more >>>>

Grace to all.

 

[twopekinguys]

Church leadership were polygamist before the great apostasy and celibate after. Except for Christ and the Apostles who were celibate before, so that doesn’t make sense. I’m thinking Joseph Smith just made it up.

Just knocking those strawmen down, one straw at a time.