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debbie_h
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The problem with this example is that you are comparing apples to oranges here.
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LivingWaters7
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As a Catholic-Christian, how would you answer that question?
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eddie_too
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all of the popes were sinful men just like the rest of us. the RCC has never taught otherwise, neither have any of the popes.
there is little to no comparison between the RCC’s office of pope and the status of joseph smith within the lds.
for example, no pope ever declared himself to be the sole arbiter between God and man.
that is think is what debbie was saying when she wrote that comparing the pope to joseph smith is like comparing apples to oranges.
there is little to no comparison between the RCC’s office of pope and the status of joseph smith within the lds.
for example, no pope ever declared himself to be the sole arbiter between God and man.
that is think is what debbie was saying when she wrote that comparing the pope to joseph smith is like comparing apples to oranges.
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kimg901
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Let us not forget that no pope has said that they have done more for the church then smith did.
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SteveVH
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I think you mean “than Jesus did”.
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SteveVH
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I would answer it by pointing out that we freely admit the errors of our leaders and call their misdeeds by their true names: “sacrilege, simony, perjury, adultery, and incest.” A pope does not get caught committing adultery and then proclaim it as a dogma of the Church. We call sin a sin, no matter who commits it.
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M1Garand
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Mormons are not Christians. They are no different than Branch Davidians or for that matter Muslims with their further revelation. They believe the gates of hell prevailed against the Church until their leader, Joseph Smith, rediscovered the “truth” in his visions. And like David Koresh he did not die a martyr for the true faith but in a hail of bullets. Unlike Koresh however he was shot to death in a religious coup d’etat.
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kimg901
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Oops, smith did more than Jesus didI think you mean “than Jesus did”.
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nmgauss
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.Are Christian Scientists Christians? Are Unitarians Christians? Neither believe in the Trinity.
. Where in the Bible is Trinitarianism supported?
So, Arius was not Christian? Wasn’t he at the church council where the big debates of ideas of Athanasius and Arius occurred?
Arius was an ascetic North African Christian presbyter and priest in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, who was of Libyan origins.[1] His teachings about the nature of the Godhead, which emphasized the Father’s divinity over the Son,[2] and his opposition to Trinitarian Christology, made him a primary topic of the First Council of Nicea, convened by Roman Emperor Constantine in AD 325.
Although virtually all positive writings on Arius’ theology have been suppressed or destroyed, negative writings describe Arius’ theology as one in which there was a time before the Son of God, when only God the Father existed. Despite concerted opposition, ‘Arian’, or nontrinitarian Christian churches persisted throughout Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa, and also in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms, until suppressed by military conquest or voluntary royal conversion between the fifth and seventh centuries.
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RebeccaJ
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The Second Ecumenical Council in 381AD declared that Arians were received into the Church via Confirmation only, therefore, their baptisms were valid. The same Council declared others, such as as Sabelianism, required baptism therefore their baptism were not valid.
It is more than a matter of theological correctness, in degrees. The intent must be that of the Church, which Mormonism does not have. Their view of Godhead is even far, far removed from Arianism. Arius never taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three Gods. His Christology was off, but he never professed a belief in more than one God, as Mormons do. This view, from Mormonism, describes another God altogether, not only a misunderstanding of the nature of God and the Person of Jesus Christ.
The Trinity is found in Scripture, but of course Catholics, are not sola scriptura. John 1:1 is a good place to start.
It is more than a matter of theological correctness, in degrees. The intent must be that of the Church, which Mormonism does not have. Their view of Godhead is even far, far removed from Arianism. Arius never taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three Gods. His Christology was off, but he never professed a belief in more than one God, as Mormons do. This view, from Mormonism, describes another God altogether, not only a misunderstanding of the nature of God and the Person of Jesus Christ.
The Trinity is found in Scripture, but of course Catholics, are not sola scriptura. John 1:1 is a good place to start.
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eddie_too
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since mormons follow the teachings of joseph smith and place the book he dictated in a place above the bible (although they might say at the side of the bible) and say that the teachings of joseph smith are necessary for salvation, they are more appropriately called smithians than christian.
but the fact that they acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ and profess Him as Savior is a positive and i have no objection to their calling themselves christians so long as they make it clear it is not the same belief system as that followed throughout the previous 1,800 years by those professing to be christians during those 1,800 years.
the mormons have a new and unique idea of christian. there idea of christian is completely unrelated to the idea of christian held by the earlier billions of christians. there is no historical or biblical support for their idea of christian.
the mormon idea of christian is totally based on smith. that is why it is more accurate to call mormons smithians than christians.
but the fact that they acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ and profess Him as Savior is a positive and i have no objection to their calling themselves christians so long as they make it clear it is not the same belief system as that followed throughout the previous 1,800 years by those professing to be christians during those 1,800 years.
the mormons have a new and unique idea of christian. there idea of christian is completely unrelated to the idea of christian held by the earlier billions of christians. there is no historical or biblical support for their idea of christian.
the mormon idea of christian is totally based on smith. that is why it is more accurate to call mormons smithians than christians.
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Brandon_Cal
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May I ask, how much of the reason also has to do with “intending to do what the Church does”, Trinitarian formula notwithstanding? The LDS do not believe in Original Sin, and as the Catholic Church “intends” to wash away the stain of Original Sin with baptism (as well as particular sin), does this at all add to the invalidity of LDS baptisms?
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RebeccaJ
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ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm is very thorough. Fr. Ladaria says in this document that the rejection of original sin is not as fundamental as the intent of the Mormon minister, but it is important.
Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism. Those are three important differences.
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TexanKnight
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because lds does not believe in the True God. They believe multiple gods exist and that their god was once a sinful man.
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Porknpie
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There is a lot to the article to say the least, explaining the differences between Mormon and Christian baptism. It struck me that it referred to infant baptism as a reason for the Mormon belief in the “great apostasy”, yet we read in the bible that “Whole Households” were baptized. This then prompts one of my favorite questions on CAF:
Are infants members of a household, yes or no?
- If yes, we’ve solved the conflict from the bible. Infants were baptized as scripture says and Church Tradition is consistent with the bible. No apostasy, no great apostasy.
- If no, then what are they members of if not a household? And where can we find this in scripture?
“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).
It’s clear: no apostasy, no great apostasy, no reason for J Smith to restore the Church.
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RebeccaJ
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There are a lot of reasons that Mormon ideas for rejecting infant baptism do not make sense. They don’t address them, just continue to claim authority by assertion.
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kimg901
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Something I just read. ksl.com/?sid=27553081&nid=148&title=utah-in-god-we-trust-license-plate-now-available&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-11 . Perhaps it should say In gods we trust
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Porknpie
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Which God is the license plate referring to? I really don’t know?Something I just read. ksl.com/?sid=27553081&nid=148&title=utah-in-god-we-trust-license-plate-now-available&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-11 . Perhaps it should say In gods we trust
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Boatswain2PA
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Huge thanks to livingwaters, stephen, Rebecca, texan, et al for their well thought out responses. I just finished reading this entire thread and learned a lot.
To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you. Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods? Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??
To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you. Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods? Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??
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mtolympus
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Good question.
**Arius was a Christian at the beginning of the Nicene council in 325 AD but not after it was over. Those who would not sign the Necene creed were disposed as heretics. This was the begining of definition #2 below. **
- The dictionary definition: “Christian - A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.”
- The Trinitarian definition: Those who believe in the triune God as described in the Nicene creed. This is the official definition of “Christian” of the Catholic Church and many of the protestant churches. This is OK. Mormons do not believe in the triune God and therefore when they understand the trinitarian definition, they will agree they are not trinitarian Christians.
- The Biblical definition: This definition is put together using three verses from the Bible. The first tells us that a Christian is a disciple of Christ. The other verses tells us how we can know a disciple of Christ in the words of Jesus Himself:
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