Are Mormons part of the Christian family???

  • Thread starter Thread starter CJ_Nick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for your response ParkerD. I’m sorry to tell you, that makes the fourth story I’ve heard, from as many Mormons.

Doesn’t this mean that the prophesy failed? Let me clarify my question, point by point, below.

Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.
The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints is quite clear.

Surely, you wouldn’t want us to think Jesus could not accomplish what He had spoken through the mouth of one of His prophets?

D&C 84: 5 clarifies it more by saying, “For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord…”

That was over 160 years ago.

As I’ve said, yours is the fourth interpertation of this prophesy, that I’ve heard, from as many Mormons. It appears, many try very hard not to accept the fact, that one false prophesy, makes a false prophet, in my opinion.
.

Prodigal Son,
You can make the verses say what you want them to say, but if you think God does not give injunctions through prophets, then I guess you are saying Moses was a false prophet, because the reason the children of Israel had to wander for 40 years was that they didn’t obey the injunction by God through Moses. (Do you remember that? Do you remember that Joshua and Caleb lived to go into the promised land because they were willing to obey the injunction by God?)

So since you believe Moses was a false prophet, I have no bone to pick with you. We are just at odds about our beliefs.🤷
 
Prodigal Son,
You can make the verses say what you want them to say, but if you think God does not give injunctions through prophets, then I guess you are saying Moses was a false prophet, because the reason the children of Israel had to wander for 40 years was that they didn’t obey the injunction by God through Moses. (Do you remember that? Do you remember that Joshua and Caleb lived to go into the promised land because they were willing to obey the injunction by God?)

So since you believe Moses was a false prophet, I have no bone to pick with you. We are just at odds about our beliefs.🤷
I provided a point by point, step by step explanation of how those Doctrines and Covenants read. You simply refute them as, I make them say what I want them to say. I did not write them and am open to others in this thread to offer their interpretation of those writings. 🤷

Moses’ prophesies came true. Joseph Smith’s prophesies did not. That where we are at odds in our beliefs.

Putting words into my mouth like, So since you believe, does not make it so and is a false statement on your part. Of course, I provided a link to Robert Millet explaining how to avoid direct questions…
 
I have read ( some ) of the very long fairslds link. I understand your claim of Great Apostasy and with great respect offered, do not see any evidence from Scripyure or any early Church Fathers that this " complete lights out " took place. I am in agrrement that ( as Jesus himself taught ) that there was and is apostasy among the body of his Church.

Although the link did provide much of LDS claims and beliefs, it did not answer my question to you. I will try it again, if I may.

You claim that JS " restored " Christ’ Church back to the authentic one that existed in time of the original 12 apostles ( approx 1800 years before Joseph had his claimed first vision ), right? My question to you is can you tell me where in Scripture, Jesus’ teachings, or any of the hundreds of early Church Fathers writtings that they taught or believed anything like what Joseph taught or believed??? If not, he really didn’t restore anything about Jesus but introduces a whole new and different Jesus, no??

Peace,
CJ
Your trouble is that you have got more than one thing wrong. You not only have it wrong about what the Bible teaches, and what the early church fathers taught; and you also have it wrong about what Mormonism teaches. So your case is a pretty hopeless one. You don’t seem to stand much chance of getting it right at all.

zerinus
 
Your trouble is that you have got more than one thing wrong. You not only have it wrong about what the Bible teaches, and what the early church fathers taught; and you also have it wrong about what Mormonism teaches. So your case is a pretty hopeless one. You don’t seem to stand much chance of getting it right at all.

zerinus
Does this mean you’ll stop your proselytizing now? :rolleyes:
 
and we both know that not everything is in scripture or that we are sola-scriptura. We both believe that Tradition is also important, and we both believe that our doctrines do not contradict Scripture.
LDSGuy, I am not being sarcastic or making a jab, but I just have to know how you can say this? Zerinus keeps telling people that you are sola-scripture. Tradition is not important to you because you IGNORE what would be equivalent to Sacred Tradition. Paying attention to Tradition requires that what is believed today is in line with what was believed yesterday, 20 years or 100 years ago. Yet, your church has jettisoned much of what Joseph Smith taught and what every mormon believed, for more than 150 years.
 
The answer to this question was meant to be No. I misread your question.

zerinus
Mat 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin’s name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
Luk 1:31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
 
LDSGuy, I am not being sarcastic or making a jab, but I just have to know how you can say this? Zerinus keeps telling people that you are sola-scripture. Tradition is not important to you because you IGNORE what would be equivalent to Sacred Tradition. Paying attention to Tradition requires that what is believed today is in line with what was believed yesterday, 20 years or 100 years ago. Yet, your church has jettisoned much of what Joseph Smith taught and what every mormon believed, for more than 150 years.
Because Joseph Smith was an “injunctionist”. 😃
 
I provided a point by point, step by step explanation of how those Doctrines and Covenants read. You simply refute them as, I make them say what I want them to say. I did not write them and am open to others in this thread to offer their interpretation of those writings. 🤷

Moses’ prophesies came true. Joseph Smith’s prophesies did not. That where we are at odds in our beliefs.
Prodigal Son,
I see no reason to have a tug of war over your words. You said every word of a prophet is a prophecy, and God does not give injunctions through prophets. You have implied in your post that Moses was a prophet. Here is the injunction that was not fulfilled by the children of Israel, therefore using your terms a prophecy was not fulfilled:

Exodus 3: 7 ¶ And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:
17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

Exodus 20:10 ¶ Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
14 But I wrought for my name’s sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Numbers 32:10 And the Lord’s anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying,
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the Lord.
13 And the Lord’s anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed.

I answered your question. You just didn’t like it because it refuted what you had said. 🤷
 
Prodigal Son,
I see no reason to have a tug of war over your words. You said every word of a prophet is a prophecy, and God does not give injunctions through prophets. You have implied in your post that Moses was a prophet. Here is the injunction that was not fulfilled by the children of Israel, therefore using your terms a prophecy was not fulfilled:

I answered your question. You just didn’t like it because it refuted what you had said. 🤷
No, I did not say every word of a prophet is a prophesy. I said, every word of a prophet, in the NAME OF THE LORD, was a prophesy. Please view the Mormon Doctrines and Covenants 84:2 two below. I have bolded and underlined what makes that a prophesy, specifically, “…the word of the Lord…as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets…” I’m sorry, I didn’t say it and I didn’t write it. If you have a problem with how it reads, see your Church.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

Turning the discussion into a Mormon interpretation of Moses, does not refute anything. It does however provide a smokescreen for retreat, in my opinion.
 
In 1843, Smith predicted that if the US would not redress the wrongs suffered by the Mormons in the state of Missouri, then “in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted” (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.394).
President Smith, in concluding his remarks, said that if the government, which received into its coffers the money of citizens for its public lands, while its officials are rolling in luxury at the expense of its public treasury, cannot protect such citizens in their lives and property, it is an old granny anyhow; and I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrating a foul and corroding blot upon the fair fame of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame. Judge, you will aspire to the presidency of the United States; and if ever you turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of Almighty upon you; and you will live to see and know that I have testified the truth to you; for the conversation of this day will stick to you through life.
ParkerD,

Is the above a prophesy?
 
No, I did not say every word of a prophet is a prophesy. I said, every word of a prophet, in the NAME OF THE LORD, was a prophesy. Please view the Mormon Doctrines and Covenants 84:2 two below. I have bolded and underlined what makes that a prophesy, specifically, “…the word of the Lord…as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets…” I’m sorry, I didn’t say it and I didn’t write it. If you have a problem with how it reads, see your Church.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

Turning the discussion into a Mormon interpretation of Moses, does not refute anything. It does however provide a smokescreen for retreat, in my opinion.
Prodigal Son,
I didn’t retreat. What do you think prophets speak if not “in the name of the Lord”? Wasn’t Moses speaking “in the name of the Lord”? I gave that example as a similar situation. The children of Israel were expected to go into their promised land much sooner than 40 years later. Joshua and Caleb, among others, spied on the land and brought back a report. The children of Israel were afraid to go possess the land of promise when they heard of the prowess of the inhabitants, even though indeed as promised the land was “flowing with milk and honey.” This is not a “Mormon interpretation of Moses”. It is the Biblical story-line, written in Exodus and Numbers.

Do you want me to re-post my earlier response to you, in different words or something? (I don’t think it would do any good.)
 
Prodigal Son,
I didn’t retreat. What do you think prophets speak if not “in the name of the Lord”? Wasn’t Moses speaking “in the name of the Lord”? I gave that example as a similar situation. The children of Israel were expected to go into their promised land much sooner than 40 years later. Joshua and Caleb, among others, spied on the land and brought back a report. The children of Israel were afraid to go possess the land of promise when they heard of the prowess of the inhabitants, even though indeed as promised the land was “flowing with milk and honey.” This is not a “Mormon interpretation of Moses”. It is the Biblical story-line, written in Exodus and Numbers.

Do you want me to re-post my earlier response to you, in different words or something? (I don’t think it would do any good.)
Finally! We agree, it wouldn’t do any good. 😛

I posted another “prophesy” of Joseph Smith’s. What year was the US government utterly overthrown and wasted, to the point not even a potsherd was left?
 
To be fair, I do know one Joseph Smith got right, even though it might not exactly be a prophesy.

In D&C 3:4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”
Joseph Smith gave a speech in May 1844, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.
 
To be fair, I do know one Joseph Smith got right, even though it might not exactly be a prophesy.

In D&C 3:4 (given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him…”

Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844; Joseph Smith was shot in Carthage jail.
Didn’t he also predict the Civil War? I thought I read something about that.
 
Didn’t he also predict the Civil War? I thought I read something about that.
“Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3).
The problem with with that prophesy is the fact that the war did not pour out upon all nations, but I’d be interested in seeing the “spin”…
 
In 1843, Smith predicted that if the US would not redress the wrongs suffered by the Mormons in the state of Missouri, then “in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted” (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.394).

ParkerD,

Is the above a prophesy?
Prodigal Son,
Yes, it appears to be so, or at least a prediction. You can gloat over the unpunished mistreatment by the Missourians of the LDS if you want. You can gloat over the fact that the United States, though it suffered the effects of a Civil War, still stands. I would say personally that I am glad Joseph Smith said a few things that would test the faith of people such as yourself, since what is really at issue is whether you can be guided by the Holy Ghost in your life and where it leads you.

You will think I have copped out. I just don’t see the need to discuss these issues with you.
 
The problem with with that prophesy is the fact that the war did not pour out upon all nations, but I’d be interested in seeing the “spin”…
Prodigal,
So I take it that you don’t think almost every nation on earth has had the effects of some kind of war (the World Wars, or any other conflict either internal or external) at some point in time during the period from 1865 until now?
 
Prodigal,
So I take it that you don’t think almost every nation on earth has had the effects of some kind of war (the World Wars, or any other conflict either internal or external) at some point in time during the period from 1865 until now?
Good point, Parker - I was thinking the same thing. Wars and rumors of wars. Did Joseph Smith have any end times revelations?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top