Are most Catholics excommunicated?

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Little_Les

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The following papal Bull, originally directed at the supporters of Luther, is still “on the books” so therefore should be binding on all Catholics.

Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”

“That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”

(This view is condemned meaning that Catholics must believe that it is the will of God that heretics be burned at the stake).

And doesn’t this pronouncement meet the criteria for an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching as decreed by the First Vatican ?Council?
 
Little_Les said:
The following papal Bull, originally directed at the supporters of Luther, is still “on the books” so therefore should be binding on all Catholics.

Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”

“That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”

(This view is condemned meaning that Catholics must believe that it is the will of God that heretics be burned at the stake).

And doesn’t this pronouncement meet the criteria for an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching as decreed by the First Vatican ?Council?
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Are you suggesting that most Catholics are Lutherans?
 
BobP123 said:
If this is true, then who remains Catholic in good standing?
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Evidently only those who believe it is the will of God that all heretics (this would mean Protestants) be burned at the stake.
 
Little_Les said:
Please explain. Your question doesn’t logically follow.
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The original document stated that supporters of Luther would be excommunicated. I do not see where most Catholics nowadays support Lutheranism.
 
Little_Les said:
The following papal Bull, originally directed at the supporters of Luther, is still “on the books” so therefore should be binding on all Catholics.

Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”

“That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”

(This view is condemned meaning that Catholics must believe that it is the will of God that heretics be burned at the stake).

And doesn’t this pronouncement meet the criteria for an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching as decreed by the First Vatican ?Council?
Click to expand...
This is true. Heretics ought be burned. (And they will be, in Hell, if they do not repent.)

However, virtually all Protestants are excluded from this, by the definition of “heretic”.

Merriam-Webster on Heretic:

“a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth”

Virtually all Protestants are baptized into the Protestant Church, not the Catholic Church. So, one can say, in keeping with the Papal Bull, that…
…that most Protestants be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
 
I had actually adressed the topic about that statement, under the same confusion. Please understand that for something to be, “against the will of the Spirit,” means that the Holy Spirit has revealed to the Church that something is outright wrong and sinful. Capital punishment has never been declared by the Church to be outright wrong and sinful. Therefore, capital punishment, including the burning of heretics, is NOT against the will of the Spirit.

It does NOT logically flow, however, that this would be suggesting that all heretics MUST be burned, as you seem to be insinuating. Martin Luther was suggesting that the capital punishment of burning heretics was outright against the will of the Spirit, even though the Church has never declared capital punishment to be outright sinful. Therefore, Martin Luther’s statement was heresy, and the Church was right to declare that statement heresy.

Furthermore, for a Catholic to hold a view point that ALL capital punishment is automatically sinful and wrong would be to hold a viewpoint that is heretical to the Church’s teachings, in my inderstanding.

I hope this clears things up.
 
lak611 said:
The original document stated that supporters of Luther would be excommunicated. I do not see where most Catholics nowadays support Lutheranism.
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No. That’s not what EXSURGE says. Read the words.

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that ALL THE FAITHFUL of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”

“That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.”
 
dmar198 said:
This is true. Heretics ought be burned. (And they will be, in Hell, if they do not repent.)

However, virtually all Protestants are excluded from this, by the definition of “heretic”.

Merriam-Webster on Heretic:

“a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth”

Virtually all Protestants are baptized into the Protestant Church, not the Catholic Church. So, one can say, in keeping with the Papal Bull, that…
…that most Protestants be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
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Think it through. The first Luthrans were baptized Catholics.
 
ChangingHeart said:
I had actually adressed the topic about that statement, under the same confusion. Please understand that for something to be, “against the will of the Spirit,” means that the Holy Spirit has revealed to the Church that something is outright wrong and sinful. Capital punishment has never been declared by the Church to be outright wrong and sinful. Therefore, capital punishment, including the burning of heretics, is NOT against the will of the Spirit.

It does NOT logically flow, however, that this would be suggesting that all heretics MUST be burned, as you seem to be insinuating. Martin Luther was suggesting that the capital punishment of burning heretics was outright against the will of the Spirit, even though the Church has never declared capital punishment to be outright sinful. Therefore, Martin Luther’s statement was heresy, and the Church was right to declare that statement heresy.

Furthermore, for a Catholic to hold a view point that ALL capital punishment is automatically sinful and wrong would be to hold a viewpoint that is heretical to the Church’s teachings, in my inderstanding.

I hope this clears things up.
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Hardly. Catholics were required under penalty of excommunication to believe that it was the will of God that heretics be burned at the stake.

Do you believe that or are you excommunicated with the rest of us who don’t?
 
ChangingHeart said:
I had actually adressed the topic about that statement, under the same confusion. Please understand that for something to be, “against the will of the Spirit,” means that the Holy Spirit has revealed to the Church that something is outright wrong and sinful. Capital punishment has never been declared by the Church to be outright wrong and sinful. Therefore, capital punishment, including the burning of heretics, is NOT against the will of the Spirit.

It does NOT logically flow, however, that this would be suggesting that all heretics MUST be burned, as you seem to be insinuating. Martin Luther was suggesting that the capital punishment of burning heretics was outright against the will of the Spirit, even though the Church has never declared capital punishment to be outright sinful. Therefore, Martin Luther’s statement was heresy, and the Church was right to declare that statement heresy.

Furthermore, for a Catholic to hold a view point that ALL capital punishment is automatically sinful and wrong would be to hold a viewpoint that is heretical to the Church’s teachings, in my inderstanding.

I hope this clears things up.
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Your understanting then is incorrect. A Catholic does not have to be a supporter of captial punishment or be considered a heretic.
 
LittleLes,

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? Are you hoping to be excommunicated? Are you hoping to prove something against Holy Mother Church?
 
SeekerJen said:
LittleLes,

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? Are you hoping to be excommunicated? Are you hoping to prove something against Holy Mother Church?
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Just exploring the history of Catholic teaching. Why should that be a problem?
 
Little_Les said:
Just exploring the history of Catholic teaching. Why should that be a problem?
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It’s not a problem. However, you seem to be asking for opinions and then dismissing all of them. I merely wondered if there was an agenda.
 
SeekerJen said:
LittleLes,

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? Are you hoping to be excommunicated? Are you hoping to prove something against Holy Mother Church?
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Apparently I 'm already excommunicated. I don’t believe that it is the will of God that heretics be burned at the stake.

Infallibly so.

Do you think that they should be?
 
SeekerJen said:
LittleLes,

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? Are you hoping to be excommunicated? Are you hoping to prove something against Holy Mother Church?
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I reject this papal teaching too. Is that a problem?

Instruction of the Holy Office, 1866, Pope Pius IX:
“It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given…”
 
Little_Les said:
Your understanting then is incorrect. A Catholic does not have to be a supporter of captial punishment or be considered a heretic.
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I didn’t say that. Whether you are doing this intentionally or not, you are twisting my words around in the same manner that you are twisting the words of the Papal Bull around.

As Catholics, we are not required to actively SUPPORT capital punishment, any more than Catholics of Luther’s time were required to believe that the Holy Spirit willed for all heretics to be burned.

What we can NOT do, however, is make a personal declaration that all capital punishment is automatically by its very nature an intrinsically disordered abomination to God. To claim that it is would be heresy.

In the same way, Catholics of Luther’s time could not make a personal declaration that all burning of heretics was automatically by its very nature an intrinsically disordered abomination to God.
That is what Luther essentially claimed by stating it was “against the Will of The Spirit.” THAT is why Luther’s statement is considered heresy.

Again, though, that does not mean that all Catholics were required to hope and desire that all heretics be burned, any more than we are required today to hope that all people on death row get the chair.

If someone can explain this more clearly than I am, please do.
 
Little_Les said:
I reject this papal teaching too. Is that a problem?

Instruction of the Holy Office, 1866, Pope Pius IX:
“It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given…”
Click to expand...
It sounds like you wish for someone to tell you either that yes, you’re excommunicated, or that the Church is in error and has contradicted herself. I’m not going to say either of those things. I don’t believe that slavery and Catholicism are compatible, nor do I think that burning is an acceptable punishment for anyone, heretic or otherwise. I do not believe that this makes either of us heretics. I have a hard time believing that our current Pope or Popes of the recent past would consider slavery or burning of heretics to be acceptable. I am not an expert on Canon Law nor do I have all of the documents from the past 2000 years memorized, thus I cannot address adequately the second point. Quite possibly now you’ll tell me that I’m wrong, and as I believe that I am not, I’m going to bow out.
 
Little_Les said:
Your understanting then is incorrect. A Catholic does not have to be a supporter of captial punishment or be considered a heretic.
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ChangingHeart is correct. It is you who are mistaken.

The Church does not teach capital punishment is intrinsically evil. Therefore, a statement that it is intrinsically evil is heretical.

That does not mean one must be a *supporter *of capital punishment, nor did ChaningHeart imply such. It means only that one cannot state that capital punishment is *intrinsically *wrong. That was Luther’s error.
 
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