Are most 'Conservative' Christians completely irrational?

[SuperLuigi]

Off-topic 16 char

 

[upant]

support for Roy Moore than to see their irrationality.

so much for innocent until proven guilty.

the left has been against this guy for a long time for his religious beliefs. why weren’t these charges brought up then? if they were provable they would have been used prior.

 

[anon65111186]

Taqiyya is dissimulation when one is under threat. When one of the companions of the Prophet (S) was tortured by the disbelievers with fire, he ended up insulting Allah and the Prophet (S), was subsequently freed, and then went to the Prophet (S) and lamented. It was then revealed to the Prophet (S) that if one is forced to commit disbelief, it does not count as disbelief (Surah 16:106).

Okay, do all muslims agree to this definition?

What constitutes a threat, and what doesn’t?

Isn’t it saying you can lie if ——-?

It is justifying lying in some circumstances, correct?

 

[Reuben_J]

I think that is simply stupid accusation and generalisation. Not all Christians who count themselves as conservative are as stupidly irrational as that. Those may be, but perhaps they are more of extremists unable to rationalise. People like that can from all stripes and colors.

 

[Kei]

1. You have to prove that those who voted for him believe these things about him, (and indeed that they are true. That America was better during slavery? Did he really ever imply that slavery made America better while it was happening?) for instance many believe that someone is “innocent until proven guilty” and as such, mere accusations shouldn’t count against him.
2. You further have to show that his beliefs would be believed to affect the legality and actions of the Congress
3. You’d have to demonstrate that voting for him is worse than than voting for a candidate that advocates for late term abortion, an issue that is clearly against morals.

Going against your opinion=/= irrational

 

[upant]

voting for a candidate that advocates for late term abortion, an issue that is clearly against morals.

some christian democrats don’t seem to have an issue with this? their subjective morality is superior to the objective morality of the bible

 

[De_Maria]

Kei:

There are many myths about us, you know!

I am already aware and I can acknowledge that, a shame that De_Maria can’t look at Islam objectively and instead said:

It seems strange to me that so many people believe it to be true and yet, Muslims now claim that it isn’t.

On the contrary, I am quite objective about Islam. I studied it diligently and decided that it was too full of contradictions to be a true religion of God.

Here’s the problem. You want to convince me, that Muslims are taught not to lie.

But, the Muslim who tried to convince me that I should become Muslim, he thought that this freedom to lie was a great selling point.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

In addition, I studied Islam and learned that it was one of the doctrines in my own independent studies.

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).
The importance of being truthful - Islam Question & Answer

Notice that lying is permitted at times of war.

What is the definition of war or jihad?

WHAT JIHAD IS

The Arabic word “jihad” is often translated as “holy war,” but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
The arabic word for war is: “al-harb”.
In a religious sense, as described by the Quran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s), “jihad” has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims or believer, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam.
Islamic Supreme Council of America – Islamic Supreme Council of America

So, a war, jihad, can be defined as a mere striving about the faith.

And, that, is something that I didn’t have to look up. I was told that by a Muslim, face to face. And I have spoken to many Muslims on this forum and others.

So, why is it irrational of me to doubt your teaching, when I have been taught the exact opposite, by a sincere Muslim that I can see and touch? And I corroborated all his teachings with my own independent studies.

In fact, I have provided examples of the teaching from the internet and provided the links.

 

[dann]

You are correct. Having a discussion with someone who lies is a waste of Time.
But it is entertaining!!

 

[Rozellelily]

Salamkhan,

It’s good to keep in mind that you are interacting on this forum primarily with Americans.
No offence to Americans but a lot of them do seem to have less tolerance to some other religions particularly Islam religion.
I assume this is due to fear and due to believing certain negative things “fed to them” by their politicians and their media.

At the same time,some responsibility does also lie with Muslims themselves as there are some Muslims that do “live the stereotype” (ie:repressing of women,aggressive etc) however the majority of Muslims are very good people.

Unfortunately,we are living in an era where things like Isis exist,so some of these Americans only experiences with Muslims may be through their media reporting about Isis/Islamic state.
They see them acting violently and horrifically and from there form (the wrong) opinion that this is what all Muslims and Islam is about.

Here in Australia,many people are much more tolerant of different religions.
The “down side” here though,is that religion-especially talking about religion- is not very popular here and there is not that much conversation about it in everyday life.

It’s good to remember that any forum members hostility is not a reflection on the Catholic faith but is rather due to that persons “sins”,ignorance,past experiences or fears.

Regarding lying,or Taqiyya,it’s not something I know much about but when people on the forums misinterpret something you have said about it,it’s helpful to practice the virtue of patience with them and gently clarify their misconceptions even if you have to do it five times and feel like your banging your head against a brick wall
In the bible,Jesus predicted to his apostle Peter that Peter would deny/disown knowing Jesus and Peter say “I’ll never do that even if I have to die with you”.
After they “arrested” Jesus though,and it came to the crunch and Peters life was at risk,Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus three times.
Peter was very upset that he did this and Jesus forgave him.
This to me seems a similar analogy to what you speak about Taqiyya.

God Bless

 

[anikins]

There are Catholics that are indeed more conservative than others and in my opinion they are most definitely irrational in most cases.

 

[Reuben_J]

Regarding lying,or Taqiyya,it’s not something I know much about but when people on the forums misinterpret something you have said about it,it’s helpful to practice the virtue of patience with them and gently clarify their misconceptions even if you have to do it five times and feel like your banging your head against a brick wall
In the bible,Jesus predicted to his apostle Peter that Peter would deny/disown knowing Jesus and Peter say “I’ll never do that even if I have to die with you”.
After they “arrested” Jesus though,and it came to the crunch and Peters life was at risk,Peter lied and denied knowing Jesus three times.
Peter was very upset that he did this and Jesus forgave him.
This to me seems a similar analogy to what you speak about Taqiyya.

God Bless

With due respect, it is a false analogy. Jesus did not condone Peter’s lie nor he ever said it is okay to lie if your life is in danger in order to save yourself. He predicted it because he knew Peter would be weak and afraid, not able to live to his boast.

Taqiyya or whatever it is, as admitted by Muslims and mentioned in the Quran and Hadith, that telling a lie is allowed in certain situations.

 

[SuperLuigi]

No offence to Americans but a lot of them do seem to have less tolerance to some other religions particularly Islam religion.

That is pretty laughable. Islam is atop the hiearchy of victimhood all over the West.

 

[upant]

No offence to Americans but a lot of them do seem to have less tolerance to some other religions particularly Islam religion.

you need to understand that islam and christianity can not both be true. the inspired books makes claims that are in conflict with each other.

is Jesus God or a just a prophet?
did Jesus die on the cross or an impostor?
is there a trinity or not?

there is a duty to spread the gospel, not be tolerant of false religions.

I assume this is due to fear and due to believing certain negative things “fed to them” by their politicians and their media.

it has nothing to do with what is “fed” as opposed to what is written. does this seem tolerant of christianity?

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

Here in Australia,many people are much more tolerant of different religions.

being in the majority doesn’t make it right. will you let a person be damned because you want to be seen as tolerant? is this benefiting you or the other person?

It’s good to remember that any forum members hostility is not a reflection on the Catholic faith but is rather due to that persons “sins”,ignorance,past experiences or fears.

who are you to judge this? is pointing out errors hostility? the faith requires us to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Regarding lying,or Taqiyya,it’s not something I know much about but when people on the forums misinterpret something you have said about it

if you don’t know about it how do you know which poster is correct on the issue?

read their book and hadith for a better understanding.

read a few islamic scholars on what lying is allowed

make your own informed opinion from their books teachings and not your tolerances.

 

[Rozellelily]

Thanks.Maybe the analogies not quite perfect but
I’m not 100 % sure though that lying is always a sin in the Catholic religion and I couldn’t get a clear indication either way from the Catholic catechism or even from google/Catholic websites.

Some Catholics may say that lying is always a sin,but realistically,if they were put in a life and death situation they would likely lie to save their families or themselves or lie to Nazis to save Jews or (using our current times) -lie to someone like Isis if they asked where their family was etc.
Sure they could just refuse to tell them,but they would get immediately killed.
They hadn’t lied but was it wise thing either?
Do they owe someone like Isis anything?
Does this lie hurt anyone?

To me it would seem isn’t sin sin because it affects the relationship between people and with God?
Not lying just for the sake of not lying-I don’t see the good in this.

 

[Rozellelily]

I agree both can’t be true.
Tolerance doesn’t suggest both are true,it just promotes peace and good will to people of other belief system (even if we don’t agree it’s true).

Regarding what is written,I’m not a scholar of Islam (or Christianity even) so I can’t profess I can interpret Quaran scripts of a cursory glance.
If I looked briefly at some parts of the bible and formed my understanding just off my mind,then I would be alarmed too.
The bible should be interpreted with the guidance from priests, and if I wanted to understand passage/s from the Quaran I would seek guidance from an Iman(?) instead of purely from my own interpretation.

Regarding judging,I’m certainly not judging anyone,I was responding to the original poster who was (in their view at least) feeling some people were responding hostile like and that they were in disbelief that he could be saying something that was true due to him being Muslim and Islam permitting(?) Muslims to lie to non Muslims.
Pointing out errors is definitely not hostile,but perhaps he was referring to how something was said rather than the content of what was said?
How people interact with someone is also a mark of how/how they are applying Christ and Catholic church’s teachings.

 

[Reuben_J]

I can understand your reason and it may be reasonable to people generally. However, the truth is, there is no teaching in Christianity where lies are mitigated and therefore not sins. There is none other than rational human thinking.

Yes, Christians are killed for their belief. There were many examples of that in the past or recent years. Martyrs were made of such stuff - I mean, they preferred to die rather than denying their faith or saying that they were not Christians, after being caught or tortured by their persecutors or enemies.

There were testimonies of Christians in Eygpt (Coptic) and Iraq, who rather die and to be killed by their captors (ISIS) rather than lying about their belief.

There is a difference in Christianity and Islam with regards to lying. It may be small but the presence or absence of this teaching is quite significant in theology and how it can affect the entire culture of its adherents.

I am not saying which is better except we have to be honest and truthful with/in what we have or do not have.

 

[Theo520]

You might want to read up on “Stages of Faith”
It may give you an alternative perspective on how to engage.

 

[PJM]

" Are most ‘Conservative’ Christians completely irrational?"

a Better question would be [IMO]

Are ANY Conservative Christians COMPLETELY irrational?

God Bless you Brother!

Patrick

 

[SuperLuigi]

Regarding what is written,I’m not a scholar of Islam (or Christianity even) so I can’t profess I can interpret Quaran scripts of a cursory glance.

Then maybe you should learn about things instead of automatically defending them indirectly.

The fact that you say “Oh, I’m not really up to speed on this, but here is what I think” isn’t going to cut it.

Also, Australia has become pretty intolerant towards religious ministers who won’t officiate a gay “wedding”.