Cutting off your arm can’t be undone. Changing your beliefs and who you say you are because of them can be done in the blink of an eye. There’s nothing magical about baptism in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, it’s just symbolic of belief. When you change beliefs you are “dirty” again you don’t stay “clean” as it is symbolic of.Hmmm. What about Catholicism? After a person is baptized, they are Catholic. It can’t be “undone.” It’s a permanent mark on the soul. Such a person may then go on to reject everything (including God) and be a horrible Catholic in danger of hellfire. But they would be a Catholic who went to hell.
Some people who reject most everything about the Catholic faith still even call themselves Catholics, and they are. They’re just lousy, quasi-apostate or apostate Catholics.
Pretty much true of any atheist.How is it not a contradiction if you deny the source of what caused you to be who you are?
That’s not correct in regard to Catholicism.There’s nothing magical about baptism in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, it’s just symbolic of belief.
All three religions say that, it’s like the CIA, you leave when you die. I reject that notion though. You are what God sees you to be, if you no longer profess the basics of Catholicism which should most certainly include belief in God, then you are no longer a Catholic. And as Paul said, a real Jew is regarded by God not men.That’s not correct in regard to Catholicism.
Baptism is much more than a symbol.
It leaves an indelible mark on the soul and is the way one enters the Church.
The same is true of Holy Orders, by the way.
I agree it’s confusing. But it looks to me as if there’s a religious component and then there’s an ethnic component.I just wanted to see if anyone here wanted to take a crack at justifying the absurd notion that a Jew can reject the thing that makes him a Jew and still honestly call himself a Jew.
I think that’s a false dichotomy. In one sense you are correct. Just as “all Israel” is not truly Israel, not all Catholics are truly Catholic. But in another sense, God most certainly does see Catholics who have rejected their faith as Catholic. And Jews are still Jews. Again, in the case of Catholicism, the sacrament of Baptism leaves an indelible mark that cannot be undone.All three religions say that, it’s like the CIA, you leave when you die. I reject that notion though. You are what God sees you to be, if you no longer profess the basics of Catholicism which should most certainly include belief in God, then you are no longer a Catholic. And as Paul said, a real Jew is regarded by God not men.
Most Jews today say it’s got nothing to do with Judah unless you are a Jew because you came from an unbroken line of female Jews of Judah, and that’s about impossible to prove since anyone could say they were of Judah, like the Queen of England, and there’s no way to really know.I agree it’s confusin. But it looks to me as if there’s a religious component and then there’s an ethnic component.
The word “Jew” comes from the word “Judah”, one of the tribes of Israel. It encompassed the Southern Kingdom, which included Benjamin, if I recall correctly.
So if one is tied to this people, they could be “Jews” in the ethnic sense even if not “Jews” in the religious sense.
That’s how it looks to me anyway.
What about a Catholic who converted to Judaism and rejected Jesus, would God see him as a Catholic Jew?I think that’s a false dichotomy. In one sense you are correct. Just as “all Israel” is not truly Israel, not all Catholics are truly Catholic. But in another sense, God most certainly does see Catholics who have rejected their faith as Catholic. And Jews are still Jews. Again, in the case of Catholicism, the sacrament of Baptism leaves an indelible mark that cannot be undone.
God knows this. He sees it. He created it.
A baptized Catholic can sin mortally, die and go to hell. He would be a Catholic who went to hell. One mortal sin is the loss of faith.
Even more hypocritical when they say Trinity and worship of Jesus disqualifies one from being a Jew, but then accept other doctrines of Kabbalah that God can enter a Tzadik or righteous rabbi and become God clothed in a human body, thus making him God on earth and worthy of worship.Aside from that, I’d like to say that the entire “Jews aren’t Jews they’re Ashkenazi” is offensive and out of line. I’ve seen that before and it’s extremist garbage, imo.
A couple of people already put up some information debunking it with genetics, which I’d seen before, too.
But I do admit to finding it hypocritical that at least some (many?) Jewish people will say that Jews who believe in Jesus aren’t Jewish anymore.
That doesn’t make any sense that I can see.
Many Irish can trace themselves back to Scotland, England or what have you. They’re still Irish.Most Jews today say it’s got nothing to do with Judah unless you are a Jew because you came from an unbroken line of female Jews of Judah, and that’s about impossible to prove since anyone could say they were of Judah, like the Queen of England, and there’s no way to really know.
I don’t think that one can deny ‘history’ its place (inevitably) but I’d suggest that you have to see it (look at it from a Jewish perspective just for a moment) at the level of rejection of religion/people/culture on the part of the convert to Christianity.But I do admit to finding it hypocritical that at least some (many?) Jewish people will say that Jews who believe in Jesus aren’t Jewish anymore.
That doesn’t make any sense that I can see.
What qualifies as a Jew (religion) depends on the Jew you ask. What qualifies a person as a Jew (meaning ethnic Hebrew) is a matter of genetics. One is or isn’t ethically a Jew the same way someone is or isn’t Italian. The confusion exists because being a Jew refers to a religion and an ethnicity.Fact is, the Jews don’t even agree on what makes a Jew… some say it’s through the bloodlines (but that is difficult to trace pre-Diaspora). Others say it’s a life-style. Still others would argue that anyone can be a Jew (able to be fully joined with the Jewish community) per Ezekiel 47:22.
Ezek.47:22,23 You shall divide it by allotment as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who reside among you and shall have children born among you. They shall be to you as those born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall inherit with you among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the foreigner resides, there shall you give him his inheritance, says the L-rd G-d.
I must say tho’ after reading through much of this thread (albeit, not all), that I’m not sure what the point of all this is. Can anyone help me with this?
Understood. Buddhism, too. I know atheists who are accepted as Jews. That one is the most odd to me.Even more hypocritical when they say Trinity and worship of Jesus disqualifies one from being a Jew, but then accept other doctrines of Kabbalah that God can enter a Tzadik or righteous rabbi and become God clothed in a human body, thus making him God on earth and worthy of worship.
I understand. I’ve been given that explanation before. But here is what doesn’t make sense to me:I don’t think that one can deny ‘history’ its place (inevitably) but I’d suggest that you have to see it (look at it from a Jewish perspective just for a moment) at the level of rejection of religion/people/culture on the part of the convert to Christianity.
Muslims prescribe killing the convert, which solves the religion/culture rejection problem for them, of course.
Yeah I think I said enough about it for a while, I don’t want to make anyone feel bad, just get them to think about it.Understood. Buddhism, too. I know atheists who are accepted as Jews. That one is the most odd to me.
What could be more of a rejection than that?
But I don’t want to turn this into a “let’s beat on Jewish people” session. It’s important to keep these discussions on an even keel and recognize that we are not enemies. That only plays into the hands of THE enemy.
Just a small point, but I do not know this claim to be true (about the Kabbalah). I’ve read a lot of supposed things that come from the Kabbalah, Talmud or what have you that have turned out to be untrue.Even more hypocritical when they say Trinity and worship of Jesus disqualifies one from being a Jew, but then accept other doctrines of Kabbalah that God can enter a Tzadik or righteous rabbi and become God clothed in a human body, thus making him God on earth and worthy of worship.
It’s what Chabad teaches.Just a small point, but I do not know this claim to be true (about the Kabbalah). I’ve read a lot of supposed things that come from the Kabbalah, Talmud or what have you that have turned out to be untrue.
If it is true, then I agree with your point.
Regardless, I think it was a good call on your part (your last entry) to make sure things stay on the right level.
It was an information and interesting discussion for the most part.