Are most Jews really Jews?

[Rick09]

It’s what Chabad teaches.

Hmmm. I just looked, never saw that before.

But two things: I’ve seen enough to know that Jewish ways of putting things can appear one way to non-Jews than what they are really intended to mean. And then, also, just because Chabad says it, it does not mean that stands for all Jews or even those who adhere to Kabbalah.

Still, if true, it’s a serious contradiction. All the more interesting that it (Chabad) involves Rabbi Schneerson. Some thought Shneerson was the Messiah. Maybe some still do.

Do you have a link to the article that says what you mentioned?

Maybe we should do this by private message…

I think this thread is finished.

Thanks.

 

[Kaninchen]

Being Jewish may be a matter of ethnicity and/or religion. It is perfectly logical to say that one who becomes Christian has “rejected” the religion of modern Judaism. That much I follow. But how does one who may still keep a kosher home and remain culturally Jewish in all other ways “reject” his “people” and “culture” by believing that Jesus is the Messiah?

The suggestion that it may be in some way ‘neutral’ might be more persuasive if it wasn’t part of the whole Christian program to actively try to convert others.

The two religions are very distinct - Jesus isn’t some missing factor in an equation that would make a Jew a Christian. They are two very different ways of thinking about God and two very different worldviews, two very different sets of observances and performance of observances, it’s not merely a question of not mixing meat and dairy.

It doesn’t appear to me that such a person is the one doing the rejecting on that level…it is the general Jewish community who has rejected him.

I can understand that you would think that but it’s two different religions, two different worldviews.

 

[Valke2]

But I do admit to finding it hypocritical that at least some (many?) Jewish people will say that Jews who believe in Jesus aren’t Jewish anymore.

That doesn’t make any sense that I can see.

They’re jewish. But they are Jews who have abandoned their faith. You can’t believe in a God that takes human form and still be practicing Judaism. Would a Catholic who said he/she didn’t believe in Jesus be considered a Catholic?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

They’re jewish. But they are Jews who have abandoned their faith. You can’t believe in a God that takes human form and still be practicing Judaism. Would a Catholic who said he/she didn’t believe in Jesus be considered a Catholic?

Have Lubavitchers abandoned their faith by saying the Rebbe is God in human form? Are there any published documents from all the denominations of Judaism saying that, as they do about Messianics?

 

[Valke2]

I understand. I’ve been given that explanation before. But here is what doesn’t make sense to me:

Being Jewish may be a matter of ethnicity and/or religion. It is perfectly logical to say that one who becomes Christian has “rejected” the religion of modern Judaism. That much I follow. But how does one who may still keep a kosher home and remain culturally Jewish in all other ways “reject” his “people” and “culture” by believing that Jesus is the Messiah?

This common answer I have heard from Jewish people (the one you gave above) seems to confuse the issue. If I am Irish and I become a French citizen, then one may reasonably say I “rejected” my Irishness. But those who become Catholic have done no such thing that I can see.

It doesn’t appear to me that such a person is the one doing the rejecting on that level…it is the general Jewish community who has rejected him.

First of all, we’re talking about a very few people here. THe vast majority of Jews who worship Jesus were never Jews to begin with. There are some who buy into the Jews for Jesus movement, and will retain some traditions. But that’s only a means of getting Jews to believe they are still practicing judaism while worshipping Jesus as God. That’s like serving the cheese next to the hamburger instead of on top of it and saying its a kosher meal.

Personally, I’ve never met or even heard of anyone who was born Jewish, keeps Jewish traditions, and worships Jesus.

Out of all the messainic sects I’ve run across, the only one that actually has a majority of Jews that believe in Jesus is the Hebrew Catholics, which I recently read about.

 

[Valke2]

Have Lubavitchers abandoned their faith by saying the Rebbe is God in human form? Are there any published documents from all the denominations of Judaism saying that, as they do about Messianics?

Most Lubavitchers do not say that and the ones that do are in conflict with a lot of other Jews. And I’ve never heard the Rebbe described as God in human form. Do you mean they believe the Rebbe is the Messiah?

 

[Valke2]

It is not an abadonment of faith to believe that an individual is the Messiah, even if one is wrong. There’s a big difference in Judaism between Messiah and God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Most Lubavitchers do not say that and the ones that do are in conflict with a lot of other Jews. And I’ve never heard the Rebbe described as God in human form. Do you mean they believe the Rebbe is the Messiah?

Messiah and God. Schneerson taught the idea himself.

“The Rebbe is completely connected with his Hasidim, not like two separate things that connect, rather they become completely one. And the Rebbe is not an intermediary which separates rather he is one that connects. Therefore by a Hassid, he with the Rebbe with God are all one…Therefore one can not ask a question about an intermediary since this is the essence of God Himself, as He has clothed Himself in a human body”

So how is that real different than God in a human body called Jesus?

 

[Valke2]

Messiah and God. Schneerson taught the idea himself.

“The Rebbe is completely connected with his Hasidim, not like two separate things that connect, rather they become completely one. And the Rebbe is not an intermediary which separates rather he is one that connects. Therefore by a Hassid, he with the Rebbe with God are all one…Therefore one can not ask a question about an intermediary since this is the essence of God Himself, as He has clothed Himself in a human body”

So how is that real different than God in a human body called Jesus?

It sounds to me that this is referring to the fact he is at one with God. When we say that God is one, we are saying that there is nothing, including ourselves, that are outside of God. But this is the first I’m hearing of that quote and only my impression. God breathed life into man so we all have a spark of God in us.

The quote you gave, after looking at the links, was used to describe the fact/belief that according to kabbalah, a tzadik, because he has completely nullified himself and his desires to what God wants, his Godly soul (which like every Godly soul is part of God) is revealed within him more than other people who have not completely nullified themselves to God. However, all of the sources below [including your quote] do not believe in the Tzadik being like God, as this belief is incompatible with Judaism.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It sounds to me that this is referring to the fact he is at one with God. When we say that God is one, we are saying that there is nothing, including ourselves, that are outside of God. But this is the first I’m hearing of that quote and only my impression. God breathed life into man so we all have a spark of God in us.

The quote you gave, after looking at the links, was used to describe the fact/belief that according to kabbalah, a tzadik, because he has completely nullified himself and his desires to what God wants, his Godly soul (which like every Godly soul is part of God) is revealed within him more than other people who have not completely nullified themselves to God. However, all of the sources below [including your quote] do not believe in the Tzadik being like God, as this belief is incompatible with Judaism.

It doesn’t seem to agree with “essence of God Himself” but it’s true that they worship Rebbe S. as God, and true they haven’t been kicked from Judaism. So I’ll leave that one there.

 

[susankndrck]

What qualifies as a Jew (religion) depends on the Jew you ask. What qualifies a person as a Jew (meaning ethnic Hebrew) is a matter of genetics. One is or isn’t ethically a Jew the same way someone is or isn’t Italian. The confusion exists because being a Jew refers to a religion and an ethnicity.

So a person can be a religious jew but not an ethnic one (as proven by genetic tests).
Is that correct?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So a person can be a religious jew but not an ethnic one (as proven by genetic tests).
Is that correct?

The common usage is that ethnic Jew means one who has been converted to Judaism or is born to a Jewish mother. It doesn’t refer to Hebrew “blood” or race at all.

A religious or as they prefer, observant Jew observes Torah and believes in God. A secular or non-observant Jew may not do either and be atheist or even of another religion like Hinduism. But they are still considered Jews by Judaism.

An Israelite descended from Jacob and is one of the Twelve Tribes and may or may not be identified as Jewish.

This is the only case where DNA might show anything, all other Jews may have been converted from other nations. But it would be very hard to prove someone’s ancestor actually belonged to one of those tribes.

 

[Rick09]

The suggestion that it may be in some way ‘neutral’ might be more persuasive if it wasn’t part of the whole Christian program to actively try to convert others.

The two religions are very distinct - Jesus isn’t some missing factor in an equation that would make a Jew a Christian. They are two very different ways of thinking about God and two very different worldviews, two very different sets of observances and performance of observances, it’s not merely a question of not mixing meat and dairy.

I can understand that you would think that but it’s two different religions, two different worldviews.

Let me try again. That wasn’t my point. You indicated that converting to Christianity involved a rejection of the Jewish “culture” and “people.” That is not true, imo. A rejection of modern Judaism? That I see, yes.

As such, it is not reasonable to say that a Jew who believes in Jesus is no longer a Jew, imo. Such a person is no longer a follower of modern Judaism.

That does not annihilate one’s ethnic ties.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I can see that Jews may reject the Christian Jesus, even though they have their own Rebbe/God/Failed Messiah scandal to deal with, and to explain why they haven’t treated that as harshly as Jesus. That is mostly the fault of Christians for turning Jesus into a deity.

But the Muslim view of Jesus I have, and which is easily derived from a contextual reading of the NT, leaves no room to do that, since he is a prophet made God to the people like Moses.

And their own reasoning for treating Jesus as a failed Messiah lies in Isaiah 42:4, saying Messiah, God’s Servant, cannot fail nor be discouraged till he sets judgment in the earth.

But then they deny that Isaiah 53 is about the same Servant, they say it is a different one (namely all Jews), because they know Isaiah 53 prophesies that Messiah will be rejected at first but then triumph in the end and will not fail or be discouraged at all.

So all objections to Jesus as going against Jewish beliefs are really nonsense. Jesus goes against modern Judaism because modern Judaism doesn’t teach true Jewish beliefs. Like, that you kind of need to believe in God to be a Jew, for one thing.

 

[Rick09]

They’re jewish. But they are Jews who have abandoned their faith. You can’t believe in a God that takes human form and still be practicing Judaism. Would a Catholic who said he/she didn’t believe in Jesus be considered a Catholic?

Okay. So we agree that they’re Jewish. Faith and ethnicity are two different things.

(Before I go on, let me preface my comments by saying I intend no offense by anything I write.)

However, whether they are practicing Judaism can be viewed in different ways. By today’s practice of Judaism? Yes. I agree. It’s not what would commonly be viewed as Judaism. But Judaism has long had many serious variations and developments going back to the days before Jesus.

Whether these developments are valid/correct seems to be the pertinent question, imo. And only God knows the answer.

Jesus and his disciples attended synagogue. They were considered a sect of Judaism (at least until the malediction was pronounced upon them).

The Pharisees and Essenes had extremely serious differences in views of God/salvation than say, the Sadducees, which were the “traditional” form of Judiasm…the resurrection, for one.

But the Sadducee version of Judaism has seemingly lost out. Modern Rabbinic Judaism (as diverse as it is) is still generally in line with the Pharisees, right?

Today, we have Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Chasid. My understanding is that the Orthodox in Israel don’t consider Reform or Conservative Jews to be real Jews (religiously) at all.

So, who is to say?

Who is to say that the sect following Jesus was not correct, after all?

It does strike me as significant that the Temple was destroyed about 40 years (a number that has obvious significance) after the death of Jesus.

So, since the destruction of the Temple, has God spoken to His people as He had over millenia until then? Why is there no more sacrifice as God commanded? Did He give those who rejected Jesus new directions for worship? Or did men choose a new course that incorporated as much of what could still be maintained while making new accommodations?

Is this the way God ever led His people in matters of faith…and for 2,000 years as is the case now?

Is there any precedent for that?

Again, I’m sorry if this seems rapid fire or disrespectful. It can be hard in this kind of forum to handle things as well as one would like.

I’m not sure I even want to continue this in such a forum.

Better in person. We’ll see.

 

[Melchior]

The common usage is that ethnic Jew means one who has been converted to Judaism or is born to a Jewish mother. It doesn’t refer to Hebrew “blood” or race at all.

A religious or as they prefer, observant Jew observes Torah and believes in God. A secular or non-observant Jew may not do either and be atheist or even of another religion like Hinduism. But they are still considered Jews by Judaism.

An Israelite descended from Jacob and is one of the Twelve Tribes and may or may not be identified as Jewish.

This is the only case where DNA might show anything, all other Jews may have been converted from other nations. But it would be very hard to prove someone’s ancestor actually belonged to one of those tribes.

Ummm, no. “Ethnic Jew” refers to a member of the Hebrew race - though it can be used as a euphemism for a non-religious Jew. Thus the word “ethnic”. As opposed to say, Sammy Davis Jr. who was a Jew by religion but not an ethnic Jew, which is more accurately called Hebrew. I am an ethnic Jew who is a Christian so I know a little bit about it.

As for proving it, would you say the same thing of Italians, or Armenians? There is quite clearly a ethnic group of people commonly known as Jews who have ethnic features, a common ancestry and even diseases unique to their ethnic background. So it has everything to do with blood, though it is unique. Just as in the Bible the Jews were a people, Jesus and the Apostles were all of the same ethnicity, which was Jewish/Hebrew. Of course there is a religion tied to the Jewish people, but it does not change their genes. I am not a Jew by religion, yet I exist. And am descended from the semitic people known as Jews. Until 20th century America Jews never mixed with gentiles, as in marriage, in the old world. It was almost unheard of. That is why the lineage is actually very easy to trace - and it does not lead to that little tribe of Khazars.

 

[Rick09]

FaithofAbraham,

Take it easy, please. Sarcasm isn’t going to help anything. There are things that I find troubling about Islam but I don’t plan to try to ridicule you about them.

You probably believe there are things to ridicule about Catholicism, too.

That being said, I think you have a point regarding why the followers of Jesus were treated so harshly.

To me, it makes sense. I believe the rejection was prophesied and it was “necessary” ( a la St. Paul ) in that it led to the faith being brought to the rest of the world.

Although, of course, your description of Christians “turning Jesus into a deity” is not one with which I or any Catholic would concur. Even the Jewish leaders of the time understood that Jesus believed Himself to be God. That was why they crucified Him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Ummm. No ethic Jew refers to a member of the Hebrew race. Thus the word “ethnic”. As opposed to say, Sammy David Jr. who was a Jew by religion but not an ethnic Jew, which is more accurately called Hebrew. I am an ethnic Jew who is a Christian so I know a little bit about it.

As for proving it, would you say the same thing of Italians, or Armenians? There is quite clearly a ethnic group of people commonly known as Jews who have ethnic features, a common ancestry and even diseases unique to their ethnic background. So it has everything to do with blood, though it is unique. Just as in the Bible the Jews were a people, Jesus and the Apostles were all of the same ethnicity, which was Jewish/Hebrew. Of course there is a religion tied to the Jewish people, but it does not change their genes. I am not a Jew by religion, yet I exist. And am descende from the semitic people known as Jews.

Ethnic is most used to refer to Jews who convert Orthodox or born to a Jewish mother, halachly Jews. There is no race called Jew, you are either Israelite or you aren’t.

Jews came into existence after Sinai where non-Israelite sojourners along with Israelites accepted Torah and were thus Jews. So Jews are a mixed race people who observe Torah.

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

 

[Rick09]

Ummm, no. “Ethnic Jew” refers to a member of the Hebrew race - though it can be used as a euphemism for a non-religious Jew. Thus the word “ethnic”. As opposed to say, Sammy Davis Jr. who was a Jew by religion but not an ethnic Jew, which is more accurately called Hebrew. I am an ethnic Jew who is a Christian so I know a little bit about it.

As for proving it, would you say the same thing of Italians, or Armenians? There is quite clearly a ethnic group of people commonly known as Jews who have ethnic features, a common ancestry and even diseases unique to their ethnic background. So it has everything to do with blood, though it is unique. Just as in the Bible the Jews were a people, Jesus and the Apostles were all of the same ethnicity, which was Jewish/Hebrew. Of course there is a religion tied to the Jewish people, but it does not change their genes. I am not a Jew by religion, yet I exist. And am descended from the semitic people known as Jews. Until 20th century America Jews never mixed with gentiles, as in marriage, in the old world. It was almost unheard of. That is why the lineage is actually very easy to trace - and it does not lead to that little tribe of Khazars.

I agree with this by and large. But again, as with, say, the Irish…many can eventually trace themselves back to England, Scotland or even France. Does that mean they aren’t “really” Irish?

People can be naturalized. How much time that takes? I’m not an expert. But there is a bit of a grey area here.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FaithofAbraham,

Take it easy, please. Sarcasm isn’t going to help anything. There are things that I find troubling about Islam but I don’t plan to try to ridicule you about them.

You probably believe there are things to ridicule about Catholicism, too.

That being said, I think you have a point regarding why the followers of Jesus were treated so harshly.

To me, it makes sense. I believe the rejection was prophesied and it was “necessary” ( a la St. Paul ) in that it led to the faith being brought to the rest of the world.

Although, of course, your description of Christians “turning Jesus into a deity” is not one with which I or any Catholic would concur. Even the Jewish leaders of the time understood that Jesus believed Himself to be God. That was why they crucified Him.

I’m pretty tolerant of most things, atheism isn’t one of them especially among those who like to claim to be God’s Chosen People. I also reject that Jesus ever claimed to be God in the NT. And really do blame Christians for not making more believers of Jews with that doctrine.