Are most Jews really Jews?

[Melchior]

So a person can be a religious jew but not an ethnic one (as proven by genetic tests).
Is that correct?

Or vice versa. Any gentile can convert to the Jewish religion. But the vast majority of Jews are Jews by ethncity as well as religion. Though, it is debatable if most of modern Judaism or any since Christ can rightly be called the true Jewish religion. I would argue that the people are the same people (ethnically) but the religion, fullfilled in Christ is available to all people, Jew and Gentile alike. All Jews of the heart in Christ.

But that must never be used to deny a people of their heritage which is very real. And if they wish to identify their religion as Judaism that is their right - it just means something different, thologically, than it did in 5 BC. Of course I believe the Faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is found in Christ alone now.

But the crux of the biscuit is the Jews are the Jews. Ethnically and religiously. I think the Orthodox Jews are as close as one can get to the real Jewish religion though. Reform Judaism is real Judaism in the way that Unitarianism is Christianity, the tradtional and orthodox would deny that it is.

 

[Rick09]

Ethnic is most used to refer to Jews who convert Orthodox or born to a Jewish mother, halachly Jews. There is no race called Jew, you are either Israelite or you aren’t.

Jews came into existence after Sinai where non-Israelite sojourners along with Israelites accepted Torah and were thus Jews. So Jews are a mixed race people who observe Torah.

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

That’s not reasonable, imo. There are different levels on which one may be validly called a “Jew”. Historically, the word “Jew” comes directly from Judah. It looks like you’re creating capricious rules as to who and what a Jew is, imo.

Regarding who the first Jews were, the first occurrence of the word “Jew” or any variation in the O.T. that I see is 1 Chronicles (estimated around the 5th century B.C.)

 

[Melchior]

I understand. I’ve been given that explanation before. But here is what doesn’t make sense to me:

Being Jewish may be a matter of ethnicity and/or religion. It is perfectly logical to say that one who becomes Christian has “rejected” the religion of modern Judaism. That much I follow. But how does one who may still keep a kosher home and remain culturally Jewish in all other ways “reject” his “people” and “culture” by believing that Jesus is the Messiah?

It doesn’t but it is so ingrained in Jewish families that one can believe anything and “remain” a Jew except belief in Jesus. There are a lot of reasons for this, mostly bad Christians throughout the centuries persecuting Jews. Jews do not take into account of one is religious or not. To them, then Nazi’s were Christians because Germany was Christian country. There is some heavy duty social psych involved. But I do not tolerate other Jews trying to deny me my existence. I have uncles and aunts that would say I am only what my non Jewish parent was ethnically. I would say so I am half nothing? There really is no logic to it. I defy any Jew to deny me my heritage when they themselves may be atheist or agnostic. Believing in Jesus does not make one less Jewish, it makes one more Jewish. In fact it grafts the non Jew into the Jewish family (theologically).

 

[Rick09]

I’m pretty tolerant of most things, atheism isn’t one of them especially among those who like to claim to be God’s Chosen People. I also reject that Jesus ever claimed to be God in the NT. And really do blame Christians for not making more believers of Jews with that doctrine.

It’s fine to disagree or to find things objectionable. I find many things objectionable, including atheism. But I also object to what comes across as a tone of superiority.

None of us have reason to be that way. We are all saved by the grace of God and not one of us deserves or is owed it.

You do not know these people. But they are real. They have immortal souls and matter every bit as much as you or I. If your intent is to help rather than to make yourself look good by making others look bad, then this is no way to go about it.

I assume you want the discourse to be contructive.

 

[Melchior]

Ethnic is most used to refer to Jews who convert Orthodox or born to a Jewish mother, halachly Jews. There is no race called Jew, you are either Israelite or you aren’t.

Jews came into existence after Sinai where non-Israelite sojourners along with Israelites accepted Torah and were thus Jews. So Jews are a mixed race people who observe Torah.

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

Sorry, your definition is your own an not a historical one. Jews are a people, it has come to be a synonym for Hebrew, Israelite, etc. The ethnicity consists of descendent of Jacobs 12 sons and all foreigners who joined them through circumcision, this group most certainly blended into one ethnicity over the centuries as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures. These are who Jesus was descended from. All ethnicities have mixes of other ethnicities if you go back far enough. Italians were all once fair and blue eyed until the Moors. Celt did not have red hair until the Vikings blended with them etc.

I also reject what you say theologically, that great Jew St. Paul said a true Jew (theologically) is a Jew of the heart.

In a strict sense I am not a Jew (when speaking of the religion) but I when most people refer to Jews they are talking about the people in general and not necessarily their faith. The modern word “Jew” encompasses a religion and an ethnicity. Unless you two are from a Jewish family I think I am slightly more qualified than you to answer this.

One more time, in the modern usuage, “Jew” refers to a member of the religion and/or an ethnic Hebrew. Those are the stubborn facts.

 

[Rick09]

It doesn’t but it is so ingrained in Jewish families that one can believe anything and “remain” a Jew except belief in Jesus. There are a lot of reasons for this, mostly bad Christians throughout the centuries persecuting Jews. Jews do not take into account of one is religious or not. To them, then Nazi’s were Christians because Germany was Christian country. There is some heavy duty social psych involved. But I do not tolerate other Jews trying to deny me my existence. I have uncles and aunts that would say I am only what my non Jewish parent was ethnically. I would say so I am half nothing? There really is no logic to it. I defy any Jew to deny me my heritage when they themselves may be atheist or agnostic. Believing in Jesus does not make one less Jewish, it makes one more Jewish. In fact it grafts the non Jew into the Jewish family (theologically).

I wasn’t aware that you were Jewish. Yours is an important testimony.

But I was dancing around what you have said here, Melchior. I agree with you.

I have never heard an answer that made real sense to me. I believe it is more of an emotional response on the part of Jews who do not believe in Jesus than it is a logical one.

That being said, I do understand the reasons for the emotional response. It isn’t as if there is nothing behind it…completely without cause.

Nonetheless, the truth of a thing is not dependent upon the subjective witness of those who believe it.

Once a Jew, always a Jew.

 

[Valke2]

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

I’ll answer in rhyme, that’s just not true.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That’s not reasonable, imo. There are different levels on which one may be validly called a “Jew”. Historically, the word “Jew” comes directly from Judah. It looks like you’re creating capricious rules as to who and what a Jew is, imo.

Regarding who the first Jews were, the first occurrence of the word “Jew” or any variation in the O.T. that I see is 1 Chronicles (estimated around the 5th century B.C.)

Jew may derive from Judah since that house returned from Babylon and were the remnant left observing Torah, while Israelites were scattered to the winds, most of them may be Gentiles now.

But Paul was a Benjamite as well as a Jew. A Jew observes Torah. A Gentile doesn’t.

Abraham wasn’t a Jew, neither Isaac nor Jacob. Those at Sinai, Israelites and non-Israelites who traveled with them, were the first Jews when they accepted Torah. And if you don’t want to follow Torah then you become a Gentile and try to follow only those few laws of Torah from Acts.

Or you don’t want to believe in God at all then you just become a heathen Gentile.

 

[Melchior]

I agree with this by and large. But again, as with, say, the Irish…many can eventually trace themselves back to England, Scotland or even France. Does that mean they aren’t “really” Irish?

People can be naturalized. How much time that takes? I’m not an expert. But there is a bit of a grey area here.

No we agree completely. What is in the “soup” of an Irish person, or a Greek for that matter is not pure, unmixed Emerald Isle blood. Most Celts have some Norwegian and Anglo in the soup. But the modern Irish are still the descendants of those Irish who may not have had Norwegian in the soup.

Most modern Greeks (though most would go nuts if you said this) likely have as much Albanian, Slav and Turkish blood as they do Greek. But they are still the Greeks, or what the Greeks have become.

Jews/Hebrews are a semitic people who were settled in the land of Israel for thousands of years and were and are still and ethnic group. But in the ancient soup of this people is more than just the blood of the 12 tribes. It includes all the converts from other ancient ethnicities. Abraham himself was from Ur. The Jews as a people had an origin in time, and they were made of a mix of people. The twelve tribes and those added to them - such as Ruth. Kind of beautiful to think of Jesus being ethnically descended from Ruth and other godly “foreigners” grafted in.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Sorry, your definition is your own an not a historical one. Jews are a people, it has come to be a synonym for Hebrew, Israelite, etc.

Or atheist. Jew can mean just about anything those who say they are Jews want it to mean. But here in reality it only means one thing, Jews observe Torah, Gentiles don’t.

 

[Melchior]

I’m pretty tolerant of most things, atheism isn’t one of them especially among those who like to claim to be God’s Chosen People. I also reject that Jesus ever claimed to be God in the NT. And really do blame Christians for not making more believers of Jews with that doctrine.

That you don’t recognize Jesus very clear claims to be God, just means (and I mean this respectfully, not as insult) that you are ignorant of the Old Testament cotext of his claims and the meaning of his words to those he spoke to. To call God ones Father to first century Jews was to call yourself equal with God. He also said He and His Father are one. And most clearly He claimed to be the very god who spoje to moses in the Buring bush when He said “before Abraham was I AM”. His meaning is unmistakable if read without bias.

Mel

 

[Valke2]

It doesn’t but it is so ingrained in Jewish families that one can believe anything and “remain” a Jew except belief in Jesus. There are a lot of reasons for this, mostly bad Christians throughout the centuries persecuting Jews. Jews do not take into account of one is religious or not. To them, then Nazi’s were Christians because Germany was Christian country. There is some heavy duty social psych involved. But I do not tolerate other Jews trying to deny me my existence. I have uncles and aunts that would say I am only what my non Jewish parent was ethnically. I would say so I am half nothing? There really is no logic to it. I defy any Jew to deny me my heritage when they themselves may be atheist or agnostic. Believing in Jesus does not make one less Jewish, it makes one more Jewish. In fact it grafts the non Jew into the Jewish family (theologically).

If you are a Jew, and you believe Jesus was/is God, then you are rejecting a founding pillar of Judaism. You are still a Jew, but you are an outcast of Judaism. Moreso if you are doing this publicly. This is not denying you your heritage. Again, if I am Catholic but I reject Jesus, am I somehow ethinicly Catholic?

As an aside, a Jew who converts to another religion is still a Jew. however, there would need to be some sort of public cermony/declaration if that person wanted to return to the community, or if their children wanted to embrace the Jewish faith.

 

[Melchior]

Or atheist. Jew can mean just about anything those who say they are Jews want it to mean. But here in reality it only means one thing, Jews observe Torah, Gentiles don’t.

You are right in reference to the religion alone. But again, modern usage has two meanings. A people and a religion.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It’s fine to disagree or to find things objectionable. I find many things objectionable, including atheism. But I also object to what comes across as a tone of superiority.

None of us have reason to be that way. We are all saved by the grace of God and not one of us deserves or is owed it.

You do not know these people. But they are real. They have immortal souls and matter every bit as much as you or I. If your intent is to help rather than to make yourself look good by making others look bad, then this is no way to go about it.

I assume you want the discourse to be contructive.

If I’m going to bother to talk about religion I’m going to talk about what is correct and not cater to rumor and misinformation. Sometimes there is compromise, other times there is just one way and that’s it, there’s no argument about it.

If I’m right I’m right, I’m not going to get all wishy-washy and say, “well, maybe I’m wrong…” if I know I’m not. If I look pompous well I guess that’s the sacrifice for truth.

 

[Rick09]

Or atheist. Jew can mean just about anything those who say they are Jews want it to mean. But here in reality it only means one thing, Jews observe Torah, Gentiles don’t.

No, no one has said that “Jew” can be “synonymous” with “atheist.”

All apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples. There is not an identity between atheist and Jews.

But some Jews are atheists. They are lousy Jews, imo. I wouldn’t want to be them when they meet their Maker. But they are Jews.

If you want to keep denying that, you can. But I doubt you’re going to convince anyone. So why continue? Do you want constructive discourse, or do you want to dictate?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That you don’t recognize Jesus very clear claims to be God, just means (and I mean this respectfully, not as insult) that you are ignorant of the Old Testament cotext of his claims and the meaning of his words to those he spoke to. To call God ones Father to first century Jews was to call yourself equal with God. He also said He and His Father are one. And most clearly He claimed to be the very god who spoje to moses in the Buring bush when He said “before Abraham was I AM”. His meaning is unmistakable if read without bias.

Mel

The Quran talks also about this Son of God idea relating to Ezra and his comparison to Moses, as they thought he might be Messiah too. It is simply a term relating to the Messiah as is also conveyed in Psalms. So if you went around saying you were Messiah and had authority over them, you are making yourself God over them. They believed he was a false prophet and killed him. That’s the story.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, no one has said that “Jew” can be “synonymous” with “atheist.”

All apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples. There is not an identity between atheist and Jews.

But some Jews are atheists. They are lousy Jews. I wouldn’t want to be them when they meet their Maker. But they are Jews.

If you want to keep denying that, you can. But you’re not convincing anyone.

So why continue? Do you want constructive discourse, or do you want to dictate?

If any people and almost any faith or atheism is allowed in this Jewish soup, then what really is a Jew? Anything a self-proclaimed Jew wants it to be, apparently. Except of course, for Jesus.

Anything in the world, except for Jesus. Now you think hard about what that really means Biblically then tell me I’m wrong telling them their notions of what a Jew is are whacked out.

 

[Rick09]

If I’m going to bother to talk about religion I’m going to talk about what is correct and not cater to rumor and misinformation. Sometimes there is compromise, other times there is just one way and that’s it, there’s no argument about it.

If I’m right I’m right, I’m not going to get all wishy-washy and say, “well, maybe I’m wrong…” if I know I’m not. If I look pompous well I guess that’s the sacrifice for truth.

And this is one of my complaints with certain followers of Islam. I understand that Islam means “submission”. But certain followers of Islam seem to think that this need for others to submit extends beyond God and on to themselves.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And this is one of my complaints with certain followers of Islam. I understand that Islam means “submission”. But certain followers of Islam seem to think that this need for others to submit extends beyond God and on to themselves.

You don’t have to agree with me, or submit. You just have to look at what you really believe. If you are a Catholic and you really believe Jesus is God, and if Judaism is the main religion of the world that specifically doesn’t allow Jesus among its members, in any way, shape, or form – what really then is Judaism to a Catholic? What is it the religion of?

 

[Rick09]

If any people and almost any faith or atheism is allowed in this Jewish soup, then what really is a Jew? Anything a self-proclaimed Jew wants it to be, apparently. Except of course, for Jesus.

Anything in the world, except for Jesus. Now you think hard about what that really means Biblically then tell me I’m wrong telling them their notions of what a Jew is are whacked out.

False dichotomy. Non-sequitur.

And I hope you are not appealing to my belief in Jesus in order to turn me against Jews, are you?

Because that would be wrong.

I was the one who originally pointed out the inconsistency on this point. It is illogical for a Jew to say that one is no longer Jewish simply because one believes in Jesus.

No longer a follower of modern, rabbinic Judaism? Yes. No longer ethnically Jewish? No, it is illogical for anyone to say that, imo.

But the rest of what you are arguing does not follow.