Are most Jews really Jews?

[Melchior]

If you are a Jew, and you believe Jesus was/is God, then you are rejecting a founding pillar of Judaism. You are still a Jew, but you are an outcast of Judaism. Moreso if you are doing this publicly. This is not denying you your heritage. Again, if I am Catholic but I reject Jesus, am I somehow ethinicly Catholic?

As an aside, a Jew who converts to another religion is still a Jew. however, there would need to be some sort of public cermony/declaration if that person wanted to return to the community, or if their children wanted to embrace the Jewish faith.

No argument. Mine is a mixed heritage. I am a half Jew. I have always been an outcast but I did grow up with the heritage and the holidays. But baptized a Christian as a baby. So I have always been a Jew ethnically/culturally but not religiously, though I did come close to being Bar Mitzvah’d as a kid but that is another story. Us half-Jews travel a lonely road half-jewish.org/index.html.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

False dichotomy. Non-sequitur.

And I hope you are not appealing to my belief in Jesus in order to turn me against Jews, are you?

Because that would be wrong.

Seeing as how I’ve said Jews observe Torah and believe in God, of course not. If they have honest doubts about Jesus I can’t fault them for that either, since they have been conditioned to believe that the Christian way is the only way to accept him.

Those who have honest doubts though, not venom.

 

[Rick09]

You don’t have to agree with me, or submit. You just have to look at what you really believe. If you are a Catholic and you really believe Jesus is God, and if Judaism is the main religion of the world that specifically doesn’t allow Jesus among its members, in any way, shape, or form – what really then is Judaism to a Catholic? What is it the religion of?

IMO, Judaism is a religion that still has a great many valid and beautiful aspects to it. Jesus did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

The moral law is still true. The Old Testament is still true. It is God’s word. The Jewish people are still loved by God.

But I believe modern Judaism also has aspects that are wrong…just as the form of Judaism practiced by the Sadducees was wrong. And I believe these modern errors center around the fact that modern Judaism does not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church, from the New Testament to Vatican II and beyond.

And I also believe that Islam is wrong. Jesus is God. Jesus rose from the dead. I do not believe that Muhammad was a prophet. I do not believe that the Koran is divinely inspired.

But there is a good deal that is true and beautiful within Islam, too.

 

[Rick09]

If you are a Jew, and you believe Jesus was/is God, then you are rejecting a founding pillar of Judaism. You are still a Jew, but you are an outcast of Judaism. Moreso if you are doing this publicly. This is not denying you your heritage. Again, if I am Catholic but I reject Jesus, am I somehow ethinicly Catholic?.

Two things.

First, there is no Catholic ethnicity. But there is Jewish ethnicity, aside from religion. I think we agree with each other on this.

Second, I disagree that belief in the Trinity involves an actual rejection of a “founding pillar of Judaism.” But I agree that most Jews find it to be so.

For instance, my understanding is that the Hebrew word for “one” in the Shema is “echad”, which does not necessarily indicate an absolute numerical singularity. It may also be a joint unity, such as a man and woman becoming “one” (as is the case with Adam and Eve, “echad”, Genesis 2:24).

yeshuaconnection.com/shema.htm

Catholics are monotheists. I’m sure you’ve heard this before…

I have to leave. Not sure if I can get back to this…

Peace.

 

[Rick09]

Seeing as how I’ve said Jews observe Torah and believe in God, of course not. If they have honest doubts about Jesus I can’t fault them for that either, since they have been conditioned to believe that the Christian way is the only way to accept him.

Those who have honest doubts though, not venom.

I think we’ve gone about as far as I am willing to go about this.

Take care.

 

[Valke2]

No argument. Mine is a mixed heritage. I am a half Jew. I have always been an outcast but I did grow up with the heritage and the holidays. But baptized a Christian as a baby. So I have always been a Jew ethnically/culturally but not religiously, though I did come close to being Bar Mitzvah’d as a kid but that is another story. Us half-Jews travel a lonely road half-jewish.org/index.html.

I"m still a little confused about your upbringing. Probably because of how we define things and my own personal bias. My father is Catholic (lapsed). But I am Jewish. For 40 years I did not pray, believe in God (or at least think much about God), etc. I would also refer to myself as half jewish. But under Jewish law there’s no such defniition. You are either Jewish or not.

In a sense, much of this is hair splitting because it doesn’t change the fact that you identify with your Jewish culture on many levels and had to endure the cold shoulder from many Jews and possibly many christians. As a kid I was often mocked for being Jewish and mocked for being Hispanic. I am sure that if I lived in a more religous community, whether it was a Jewish or Christian community, the issues would have been more severe for me. Which only highlights how crazy we all are.

 

[Melchior]

I"m still a little confused about your upbringing. Probably because of how we define things and my own personal bias. My father is Catholic (lapsed). But I am Jewish. For 40 years I did not pray, believe in God (or at least think much about God), etc. I would also refer to myself as half jewish. But under Jewish law there’s no such defniition. You are either Jewish or not.

In a sense, much of this is hair splitting because it doesn’t change the fact that you identify with your Jewish culture on many levels and had to endure the cold shoulder from many Jews and possibly many christians. As a kid I was often mocked for being Jewish and mocked for being Hispanic. I am sure that if I lived in a more religous community, whether it was a Jewish or Christian community, the issues would have been more severe for me. Which only highlights how crazy we all are.

We are somewhat similar, though my mother was Catholic and my father a Jew. My mother was very careful to respect our Jewish heritage and the holidays were always important in my home. So I grew up with a strong Jewish (cultural) identity and did indeed get the cold shoulder from two worlds. Never a real Jew and never a real white, or European either. To non Jews, if you have a Jewish parent and you look Jewish, you are “one of them”. I felt this most acutely from older half siblings whose father was Irish. To them those of us born to my father and mother, we are Jews. But really it is a no mans land on either side.

 

[HashemEchad]

As far as I’m concerned, vast majority of “Jews” are not Jews, they are Khazars, ancestors of a Turkic tribe that accepted judaism as their religion and became “Ashkenazi Jews”. As a result, can they call themselves the chosen nation? Do they have the moral right to rule Palestine if most of them have no semitic origin?
Funny thing is that Khazars’ descendants believe that judaism is their “national” religion. A special relation between judaism and being a Jew doesn’t seem to make much sense as foreigners are majority of Jews.
I think it’s very important that in this case religion for most of “Jews” is not something “given” by God but it’s a matter of choice. Their ancestors made a decision and so can they. Obviously they will be called traitors, especially if they become Catholic. But I think that conscience that they are not (or not necessarily) real Jews can be helpful when making decision of conversion.
God bless

Jews are a religio-nation. This means that when someone genuinely converts to traditional (Halachic) Judaism, they are 100% Jewish despite their backgrounds.

My mother is a convert to traditional Judaism, but in addition to that, she descends from Spanish (Sephardic) Jews who were forcibly converted to Catholicism, but who chose to practice Judaism in secret (usually called conversos, or, derogatorily, “marranos”).

This means she is technically Jewish by birth and by adoption. But she has no Khazar ancestry, only Sephardic ancestry, so using your logic, she is a true Jew no matter what!

So what are you trying to say with your “most Jews are really khazars anyway” line of reasoning (which, btw, is usually only used by white supremacists and neo-nazis, just so you know.)

 

[Lapell]

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

So, if my brother doesn’t go to church, he’s not a Catholic even if he was baptized and confirmed?

 

[Lapell]

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

So, if my brother doesn’t go to church, he’s not a Catholic even if he was baptized and confirmed?

 

[Lapell]

So you personally may be Israelite but if you don’t observe Torah you aren’t a Jew.

So, if my brother doesn’t go to church, he’s not a Catholic even if he was baptized and confirmed?

 

[Lapell]

:banghead: :banghead: Aaaaaargh! I now got a trinity of posts when I wanted only one…
How did this happen??? :hypno: :juggle:

 

[KatyElizabeth]

As far as I’m concerned, vast majority of “Jews” are not Jews, they are Khazars, ancestors of a Turkic tribe that accepted judaism as their religion and became “Ashkenazi Jews”. As a result, can they call themselves the chosen nation? Do they have the moral right to rule Palestine if most of them have no semitic origin?
Funny thing is that Khazars’ descendants believe that judaism is their “national” religion. A special relation between judaism and being a Jew doesn’t seem to make much sense as foreigners are majority of Jews.
I think it’s very important that in this case religion for most of “Jews” is not something “given” by God but it’s a matter of choice. Their ancestors made a decision and so can they. Obviously they will be called traitors, especially if they become Catholic. But I think that conscience that they are not (or not necessarily) real Jews can be helpful when making decision of conversion.
God bless

Some of today’s Jews do indeed practice Judaism which consists of the first five books of the OT and the Talmud which was written by Rabbis through the ages.

But indeed today many modern Jews are converts or descendents of converts. Almost non can trace their lineage to Israel of the OT. This has been stated many times by Rabbis and learned members of modern Judaism.

They have not before tried to hide it but of course in the current climate of today it is politically incorrect to point this out.

On that note I will say that I respect their right to worship however they choose.

 

[KatyElizabeth]

*"…Talmudic Judaism is not the Judaism of Moses and the prophets. It is a hybrid *-- the same as nominal Christianity. It comes in various forms – Hassidic (Kabalistic believers in Jewish Mysticism), Orthodox, Conservative and then the Liberal Reformed who are basically humanists. The religion has more to do with culture and ethics than with real belief. That’s Talmudic Judaism. Then there is a third kind of Judaism, also valid. It is what Paul and the Apostles observed. It’s that Judaism which says Jesus it the Messiah who fulfilled the Torah – Messianic Judaism…"

Just a snippet for starters. More at: moriel.org/articles/sermons/who_are_the_jews.htm
(This is a Jewish website)

I guess we can also call the Jews of today “nominal Jews”.??
In name only, not necessarily descendants of the tribes of Israel.

 

[Lapell]

Some of today’s Jews do indeed practice Judaism which consists of the first five books of the OT and the Talmud which was written by Rabbis through the ages.

But indeed today many modern Jews are converts or descendents of converts. Almost non can trace their lineage to Israel of the OT. This has been stated many times by Rabbis and learned members of modern Judaism.

They have not before tried to hide it but of course in the current climate of today it is politically incorrect to point this out.

Are you sure of what you’re telling us? What are your sources please?

 

[KatyElizabeth]

Are you sure of what you’re telling us? What are your sources please?

“…This genetic evidence supports a common patrilineal descent for about a quarter of current Jews, regardless of their geographic origin, and confirms the historical and Biblical concept of the People of Israel. Genetics also provides an objective test to confirm historical claims, as for example with the Lemba people…”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite (Genetic evidence for common descent)

I am saying that the majority of those today that identify themselves as Jews are converts or descendents of converts.

Conversely, there are many true genetic Israelites that do not know of their true heritage, for instance, the Pathans of Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan ( From the book, Lost Tribes from Assyria, by A Avihail and A Brin, 1978, in Hebrew by Issachar Katzir)

p.s. Previous website link moriel.org. Is a Messianic Jewish site. Not for everybody.

Sometimes I use jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ They have the Talmud in English there.

 

[chosen_people]

"…This genetic evidence supports a common patrilineal descent for about a quarter of current Jews, regardless of their geographic origin, and confirms the historical and Biblical concept of the People of Israel. Genetics also provides an objective test to confirm historical claims, as for example with the Lemba people…"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite (Genetic evidence for common descent)

I am saying that the majority of those today that identify themselves as Jews are converts or descendents of converts.

Conversely, there are many true genetic Israelites that do not know of their true heritage, for instance, the Pathans of Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan ( From the book, Lost Tribes from Assyria, by A Avihail and A Brin, 1978, in Hebrew by Issachar Katzir)

p.s. Previous website link moriel.org. Is a Messianic Jewish site. Not for everybody.

Sometimes I use jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ They have the Talmud in English there.

What you wrote is another demonstration as to why wikipedia is not a exactly a reliable source. All genetic surveys, at least the real academic ones, show that all Jews, whether Ashkenazic or Sephardic, show similar unique genetic markers traceable back thousands of years to a common middle eastern origin. They also show that the Jewish line of Cohanim can be traced back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. In other words, the Jews celebrating the passover seder are in fact the descendents of their forefathers who went out of Egypt.

see for instance: med.nyu.edu/pediatrics/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html

Furthermore, any one with even the most rudimentary knowledge of history,even without the real academic genitic surveys, knows and understands that there was not nor could there have been massive intermarriage and conversions to Judaism.

 

[HashemEchad]

What you wrote is another demonstration as to why wikipedia is not a exactly a reliable source. All genetic surveys, at least the real academic ones, show that all Jews, whether Ashkenazic or Sephardic, show similar unique genetic markers traceable back thousands of years to a common middle eastern origin. They also show that the Jewish line of Cohanim can be traced back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. In other words, the Jews celebrating the passover seder are in fact the descendents of their forefathers who went out of Egypt.

see for instance: med.nyu.edu/pediatrics/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html

Furthermore, any one with even the most rudimentary knowledge of history,even without the real academic genitic surveys, knows and understands that there was not nor could there have been massive intermarriage and conversions to Judaism.

This info is basically correct. I learned quite a bit about the genetics of DNA as it applies to genealogy, when I decided to have my mitochondrial DNA tested (maternal side.)

I could not have my father’s side tested, because in order to do that, my father would need to have a brother or son who could be tested, and he had neither (and he himself is deceased.)

But with mitochondrial DNA, they can test ANY member of the maternal line, so I had myself tested.

The info showed that my mother’s lineage goes back to the Iberian Peninsula and the Near East, and she has the Sephardic Jewish DNA markers. There are also many people of her DNA haplogroup in Spain, Portugal, Israel, Italy, Sicily and Egypt. This confirms what a cousin of mine discovered when he did the genealogy of her side of the family.

 

[KatyElizabeth]

This info is basically correct. I learned quite a bit about the genetics of DNA as it applies to genealogy, when I decided to have my mitochondrial DNA tested (maternal side.)

I could not have my father’s side tested, because in order to do that, my father would need to have a brother or son who could be tested, and he had neither (and he himself is deceased.)

But with mitochondrial DNA, they can test ANY member of the maternal line, so I had myself tested.

The info showed that my mother’s lineage goes back to the Iberian Peninsula and the Near East, and she has the Sephardic Jewish DNA markers. There are also many people of her DNA haplogroup in Spain, Portugal, Israel, Italy, Sicily and Egypt. This confirms what a cousin of mine discovered when he did the genealogy of her side of the family.

That does not contradict my previous post at all.

As judged by the shared mutations for certain genetic diseases, including Gaucher disease, Connexin 26-based deafness and familial Mediterranean fever, considerable historical contact can be demonstrated between Ashkenazi Jews and the Christians of Spain, Italy and other Mediterranean countries. The legacy of the Spanish Inquisition can be found in Latin American populations. Mutations of Jewish origin for the rare genetic conditions of Laron dwarfism and Bloom syndrome have been found among Christian peoples residing in remote communities in Latin America…from
med.nyu.edu/pediatrics/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html

And I stand by it.

Is this link for proseltyzing purposes?
whatjewsbelieve.org/

Totally useless here, Rabbi.

 

[HashemEchad]

Is this link for proseltyzing purposes?
whatjewsbelieve.org/

Totally useless here, Rabbi.

A, I’m not a rabbi, I’m a female traditional Jew.

B, My sig link line was put there out of necessity quite some time ago, due to the many efforts on this forum to proselytize ME. I got tired of having to repeatedly explain what Jews believe (and why we do not accept nonJewish beliefs), hence the sig line.

Jews do not proselytize, but we do defend our faith when others proselytize US.