Are most marriages invalid?

[Xantippe]

Or perhaps people in the US have 1) a serious lack of understanding of the nature of marriage which leads to more invalid marriages and 2) excellent infrastructure meaning people can apply for annulment, more easily gather records and evidence, and have many Tribunals to hear their cases.

Do you understand how a case ends up at the Rota?

First, let’s start at the beginning. To start the annulment process a person has a meeting with their priest and/or Procurator-Advocate. At that meeting, the priest pre-screens and determines if there is even grounds to apply. If the priest or Advocate think the case weak they will turn away the applicant. If they think there is a case, then the Petitioner gathers their evidence, their documents, and fills out the paperwork.

The paperwork is submitted to the Tribunal, who reviews it and decides if there is indeed grounds and enough evidence to support those grounds. If so, the case proceeds. If not, the case is not accepted.

Once the case is accepted and all testimony and evidence is present it is reviewed by a Defender of the Bond, who will make a case for the marriage being valid. The Procurator-Advocate makes a case for the marriage being invalid. The judge reviews the case and determines validity or invalidity. If the marriage is determined to be valid, the case is automatically brought to a stop unless there is an appeal. If the marriage is determined to be invalid, the whole thing is sent to a 2nd Tribunal for review. If the Tribunals do not agree, one saying valid and one saying invalid, the case is kicked to the Rota for a decision.

This means that cases that go to the Rota weren’t that solid to begin with and/or are being hotly contested by one of the former spouses (sometimes for spite, BTW), so it’s not surprising the Rota denies annulments to the cases sent there from the US. It’s basically the last stop appeals court.

And there aren’t that many cases sent to the Rota. In 1986, the common year the 90% stat comes from, there were only 10… that’s right, 10!..cases sent from the US to the Rota. The current number of cases sent to the Rota is between 10 and 20 from the U.S.

**That was very helpful, MJJean.

Only 10 cases sent to the Rota to get that 90% number! That means the 90% is essentially worthless as a stat.

And you’re quite correct that the appealed cases are, quite naturally, not going to be as strong on average as the non-appealed cases.
**

 

[dans0622]

I gave the link above: " But take the case of a couple who are ten years married and have children, in the first years they had a happy marriage, but for different reasons the marriage fell apart. This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way."

Right. Nowhere do you see the word “many.” I can understand his point and, if he is saying what I think he is saying (and I will give him the benefit of the doubt and conclude that he is), I have no problem with the comment.

Dan

 

[dans0622]

What do you say is the correct statistic?
“The percentage of marriages declared invalid by an American Tribunal but reversed by the Roman Rota. In his book, The Annulment Crisis in American Catholicism, Sociology Professor Robert Vasoli analyzed two studies of marriage cases from America that were reviewed by the Roman Rota over a ten year period in the 1980’s and 1990’s. His analysis reveals what he called a “stunning” 92 percent reversal rate.”
fathersofmercy.com/news/fr-chuck-zmudzinski-annulments/

Hello,

I did my own research on the question a year or two ago, for a different thread here. I can’t recall specific numbers but it was nearer to…60%? I should dig those posts up and put them on my blog, perhaps…

Dan

 

[dans0622]

Hi Dan, glad to see you on the thread.
So…what say you?
What would your answer, based on your experience in the field, be to the OP?

Hello,

I would say no, that is not what it implies and no, most mariages are not invalid.

Dan

 

[Xantippe]

Hello,

I did my own research on the question a year or two ago, for a different thread here. I can’t recall specific numbers but it was nearer to…60%? I should dig those posts up and put them on my blog, perhaps…

Dan

Please do!

Also, the other studies with a high percentage were done for the 80s and 90s. That’s getting to be a loooong time ago now–I think we’d need fresher numbers for understanding the current situation.

 

[Xantippe]

I believe Easter Joy talked upthread about advances in psychology and psychiatry over the 20th century and early 21st century making a big difference in treatment of annulments.

I think this really cannot be overemphasized. Even in my lifetime, I feel that there have been more and more discoveries, with the result that more and more, what had previously been thought to be just persistent bad choices turns out to be a fundamental problem with the psychological wiring that interferes with a person’s moral freedom (and hence their ability to validly contract a marriage).

Also, it’s worth bearing in mind that the US is, globally speaking, unusually good with psychological and psychiatric stuff, even compared to a number of developed countries. I remember reading a year or so ago about how backward France (France!!!) was with regard to autism treatment. In France until almost the present day, the go to protocol for autism has been Freudian analysis, which as I’m sure you can imagine isn’t a whole heck of a lot of good with a non-verbal child.

 

[hwriggles4]

About the annulment process:

About four years ago, I was a witness in a case. The annulment was granted for several reasons, and I will say that the petitioner’s former mother-in-law was a key witness, which I believe helped the case. The case was also a short marriage (16 months), and the petitioner began the paperwork about a week after the civil divorce was granted. The process for the investigation took about a year.

Why do I mention this?

**The tribunal looks for an impediment at the time of the wedding. ** For a shorter marriage or a more recent marriage, this seems to expedite the process, because witnesses and the petitioner can remember data much easier. This is why if someone just begins to apply for an annulment for a marriage that took place in 1979, it may be much harder to verify the circumstances at the time of the wedding, because witnesses may be deceased, hard to be found, or just may not recall any information. The lack of response from witnesses makes the case much longer.

I do know that for converts (and reverts), if a marriage took place outside of the church (say, a Justice of the Peace), and the marriage fell to divorce, sometimes the petitioner (particularly a revert) can get an annulment based on “lack of form”. These “lack of form” types of annulments are rather common, and although one has to go through the tribunal, the paper trail is often reduced. I’ve actually heard that these annulments are a high percentage in the United States, and I’ve known people that have gotten an annulment in this case within a matter of months. I guess it would also depend on the Diocese - a larger Diocese like Los Angeles may get so many of these that it could take longer than a few months.

I have heard by some critics that being pregnant at the time of the wedding can be an automatic ground for an annulment. My opinion on this today is if the wedding happened between 1930 and 1970, the majority of these unions could be invalid, because parents often made their daughters and sons get married in these situations, so the couple did not freely come to the altar. Today, there are more options in these cases, like adoption and sometimes waiting until after the baby is born, that getting married in the case of pregnancy today would not be an automatic ground for an annulment.

I do know some good priests who advise the divorced to not be dating until if an when an annulment is granted. That way, if and when a special someone comes along, the divorced person will be available for a sacramental marriage if an annulment is granted. I would like to see this advice given more often. People I have known who went through the annulment process found it healing.

 

[Tomdstone]

Only 10 cases sent to the Rota to get that 90% number! That means the 90% is essentially worthless as a stat.

This is not true. The 92% statistic was over a ten year period. Further," In 2004 …the Roman Rota received 246 appeals regarding marriage annulments. Of these, 163 came from dioceses in Europe, 73 from the Americas, and 10 from Asia."
See the site: Save Our Sacrament:
saveoursacrament.org/Facts.html

 

[Xantippe]

This is not true. The 92% statistic was over a ten year period. Further," In 2004 …the Roman Rota received 246 appeals regarding marriage annulments. Of these, 163 came from dioceses in Europe, 73 from the Americas, and 10 from Asia."
See the site: Save Our Sacrament:
saveoursacrament.org/Facts.html

73 is pretty week tea.

By the way, I was thinking about the 1929 and 1930 10 annulment figure, and it occurs to me that there would be way more than 10 people every year who had unknowingly married a person who was not actually sexually interested in their gender.

Even if we assume that only 3 or 4% of the population is gay, that would still affect a large number of marriages in absolute terms.

 

[Tomdstone]

73 is pretty week tea.

By the way, I was thinking about the 1929 and 1930 10 annulment figure, and it occurs to me that there would be way more than 10 people every year who had unknowingly married a person who was not actually sexually interested in their gender.

Even if we assume that only 3 or 4% of the population is gay, that would still affect a large number of marriages in absolute terms.

73 is for one year. The 92% overturned statistic covers a ten year period, not a one year period.

 

[MJJean]

This is not true. The 92% statistic was over a ten year period. Further," In 2004 …the Roman Rota received 246 appeals regarding marriage annulments. Of these, 163 came from dioceses in Europe, 73 from the Americas, and 10 from Asia."
See the site: Save Our Sacrament:
saveoursacrament.org/Facts.html

Yes. An average of 10-25 cases sent from America to the Rota each year over a 10 year period with a 92% “reversal” rate. And these are annulment cases that are basically at the last appeals court. This is NOT representative of the typical American annulment. These are cases that are already on shaky ground.

Mind you, the average number of US annulments is 60,000 per year, yes? And of those only about 10-25 go to the Rota. That’s a very small percentage of contested verdicts each year.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. An average of 10-25 cases sent from America to the Rota each year over a 10 year period with a 92% “reversal” rate. And these are annulment cases that are basically at the last appeals court. This is NOT representative of the typical American annulment. These are cases that are already on shaky ground.

Mind you, the average number of US annulments is 60,000 per year, yes? And of those only about 10-25 go to the Rota. That’s a very small percentage of contested verdicts each year.

For comparison, there were about 26 lightning fatalities in the US in 2014, and that’s a pretty freakish event.

lightningsafety.noaa.gov/fatalities.htm

We have no reason to think that the 10-25 appealed annulments are typical of the tens of thousands that are done every year.

 

[YADA]

ahhh ok. That makes more sense. Though I think it is a cop out rather than looking at the real issue. Even if you cut the annulment in HALF by the fact that 100 percent of US annulments have a non Catholic participant, then we still by far take up more of our fair share. Why is that?

you are still assuming a Catholic party … many marriages submitted to the Tribunal were contracted between two non-Catholics … the marriage could have been contracted between two atheists … and as the other poster mentioned - they may have been married multiple times before having a conversion experience … and is coming into the Catholic Faith … this one person may have *multiple marriages *that come before the Tribunal for decision … not one of the marriages having involved a Catholic partner, a Catholic Priest or a Catholic marriage ceremony - but are included in the statistics - which renders the over all number of annulments per number of Catholics meaningless - there is no correlation between the two numbers

 

[pianistclare]

you are still assuming a Catholic party … many marriages submitted to the Tribunal were contracted between two non-Catholics … the marriage could have been contracted between two atheists … and as the other poster mentioned - they may have been married multiple times before having a conversion experience … and is coming into the Catholic Faith … this one person may have *multiple marriages *that come before the Tribunal for decision … not one of the marriages having involved a Catholic partner, a Catholic Priest or a Catholic marriage ceremony - but are included in the statistics - which renders the over all number of annulments per number of Catholics meaningless - there is no correlation between the two numbers

Very true. One person who needed 4, (YES four) annulments out of six marriages…was a person seeking entry into the church. Two of the spouses had passed. None of these involved Catholics.
The party eventually became Catholic.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

you are still assuming a Catholic party … many marriages submitted to the Tribunal were contracted between two non-Catholics … the marriage could have been contracted between two atheists … and as the other poster mentioned - they may have been married multiple times before having a conversion experience … and is coming into the Catholic Faith … this one person may have *multiple marriages *that come before the Tribunal for decision … not one of the marriages having involved a Catholic partner, a Catholic Priest or a Catholic marriage ceremony - but are included in the statistics - which renders the over all number of annulments per number of Catholics meaningless - there is no correlation between the two numbers

This is really grasping at straws.

It is alarming to me the absolute refusal of many in the Church to look at the problem or even admit there is one. What you get is either american flag waving or bashing, either way, A real grasp on the issue alludes many who just want to have their heads in the sand. And once again, modern society and the media will rule the day.

 

[YADA]

This is really grasping at straws.

It is alarming to me the absolute refusal of many in the Church to look at the problem or even admit there is one. What you get is either american flag waving or bashing, either way, A real grasp on the issue alludes many who just want to have their heads in the sand. And once again, modern society and the media will rule the day.

No - sir - actually attempting to equate the numbers of Catholics in the World and United States versus the total number of worldwide annulments and US Annulments is what is grasping at straws …

You are proving the old adage that “Statistics don’t lie - but liars use Statistics”**** and that is alarming.

I am in the Church - I too share dismay an the number of divorces in our society - along with poorly catechized adults and the general decay of our sex crazed, drug fueled society that murders its young via abortion and thinks its acceptable for 12 year olds to have access to ABC in order to engage in “safe sex”

I do know a lot about the underlying data of annulment applications and the demographics associated with them.

I spent 15 years working with RCIA and Catholics returning to the faith. This is the source of many of the cases we are discussing. Many that are coming into and returning to the faith and the Church have past marriages and divorces … Being a person who was actively working in these ministries - I can tell you that in that decade and a half - most - not all - but most of the annulment cases submitted from that parish [large urban with over 2000 households] were marriages that involved non-Catholics - neither party were Catholic, the marriage was not performed by a Catholic Priest nor was the wedding ceremony performed in a Catholic church.

Yet every annulment discussion makes the leap that it is Catholics - or at least one Catholic that is in involved in each and every case … and each case submitted involves two unique persons - that one person could not be responsible for multiple marriages.

There are people with multiple marriages and divorces - so one person accounted for more then one marriage that was presented to the Tribunal.

Some of those marriage involved two people who were un affiliated with any religion - they were Atheist or Agnostic or Pagan … They were not Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist etc., nor a non-Catholic Christian.

Some were between non Affiliated and non Catholic Christian persons.

Some were between two non Catholic Christian persons.

Only one that I know of involved two Catholics - though when they married one party was un-baptized non affiliated at the time of the wedding which was performed by a priest - not in the Church because the young lady was pregnant … Thus - even this one was not really a marriage between two Catholics - but one Catholic … the two teenagers dropped out of school to marry because of the impending birth - they had only known each other for 5 months at the time of the wedding - that and for many other reasons - the marriage was determined to be invalid - … The Church would require 6 months of marriage preparation today to even marry - these two went from how do you do - to carnal relations -to impending birth - to married in 5 months … How valid do you really think the vow of a 17 year old in this case really is

 

[Xantippe]

This is really grasping at straws.

It is alarming to me the absolute refusal of many in the Church to look at the problem or even admit there is one. What you get is either american flag waving or bashing, either way, A real grasp on the issue alludes many who just want to have their heads in the sand. And once again, modern society and the media will rule the day.

We don’t actually know that there is an annulment abuse problem.

We know that there is a divorce problem.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We don’t actually know that there is an annulment abuse problem.

We know that there is a divorce problem.

There is an annulment problem somewhere, Either in the US or abroad. Because the divorce problem is not unique to the US.

The Scary thing to me is the absolute refusal of people to look at the issue objectively. Either one side says there are too many annulments in the US or that there should be millions more in the world. And neither side really has a grasp on the Truth.

 

[Xantippe]

There is an annulment problem somewhere, Either in the US or abroad. Because the divorce problem is not unique to the US.

The Scary thing to me is the absolute refusal of people to look at the issue objectively. Either one side says there are too many annulments in the US or that there should be millions more in the world. And neither side really has a grasp on the Truth.

Here is a table of world-wide divorce rates.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography

The one I would suggest looking at is the one that gives the percentage value for number of divorces divided by number of marriages (I think that’s what it is).

You’ll observe that the US number in that chart is 53. Portugal has 68, which is I think the highest one. However, there are a lot of lower ones. Here are some values for other countries:

Albania 19
Chile 3
Brazil 21
Canada 48 (so pretty close)
China 22
Colombia 9
Croatia 23
Ecuador 20
Egypt 17
France 55 (I’m somewhat surprised–I thought the French were supposed to be sophisticated and just have affairs–apparently not)
India 1
Ireland 15
Japan 36
Mexico 15
Vietnam 4

So, globally speaking there really is enormous variation.

Also bear in mind that people who are legally married to each other are not necessarily even cohabitating, especially in countries with strict divorce laws.

 

[Xantippe]

Also bear in mind that for a lot of ordinary people, it’s an easy shortcut to believe that if something is legal, it must be morally OK. In the US, it genuinely is a hard sell to the ordinary person to say that divorce and remarriage is not OK when divorce and remarriage is the law of the land. That is not the case in other parts of the world.

Also, among our Protestant brethren, it is usual to disapprove of divorce, but to see the sin in the divorce itself, rather than in the following remarriage, even if adulterous in origin. The remarriage “fixes” the divorce, in their eyes, and puts a stamp of sanctity on the new relationship. That helps a bit to explain the Catholics who think that they can’t receive communion after having been divorced, as that would make sense from the common Evangelical view of divorce and remarriage.

There’s also a common Protestant view (even found among Catholics) that a spouse’s adultery automatically justifies divorce and remarriage.

Inevitably, Catholics are going to be affected by the majority culture in the US, and that does happen to be the majority culture.

So, given the circumstances of 1) our legal environment and 2) the views about marriage held even by fairly serious Protestants in the US, it isn’t surprising that there are a lot of problems with validity of Catholic marriages in the US. It would actually be very surprising if there weren’t.