Are most marriages invalid?

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So, you are saying: the person went to the priest and said
I want to dump my husband because I have a new lover…and then they proceeded to fill out the papers and they got an annulment just like that?
The priest said NOTHING about reconciling.
The priest said “just pay up and do whatever you please”?

Really?
come on.
Is this why you are so bent on this?
Is this someone close to you that was hurt by the annulment process?
Yes to all questions. She did not quite use the language you have used in the first sentence, but it amounted to that. There was a piece in the CBS TV program 60 minutes where a Lutheran lady related a story quite similar to the one I have given, except that it was her Catholic husband who was unfaithful to the marriage and he was the one who applied for and received the marriage annulment.
 
Annulments are granted for reasons not accepted in 1929. Please see 25 difficulties in the Annulment system, from the perspective of almost 700 Respondents with Save Our Sacrament:
saveoursacrament.org/Facts.html
Hello,

I can’t be too impressed with that page, when they say “The Code of Canon Law states marriage annulments are to be based only on ‘GRAVE marital deficiencies.’” I can’t say that I have the entire Code committed to memory but I have no recollection of such a quote anywhere in the Code.

And, to laud the so-called “internal forum” as if that would help anyone “save our sacrament”? Odd.

I guess I must be one of the “majority” of “tribunal personnel” who “are angry, arrogant, and verbally abusive to Respondents.”

That being said, there indeed differences in procedure now, compared to 1929. Most importantly, a lot more people can now submit a nullity case. Maybe another topic for another time.

Dan
 
Yes to all questions. She did not quite use the language you have used in the first sentence, but it amounted to that. There was a piece in the CBS TV program 60 minutes where a Lutheran lady related a story quite similar to the one I have given, except that it was her Catholic husband who was unfaithful to the marriage and he was the one who applied for and received the marriage annulment.
You do know, that people lie in their paperwork, correct?
And you do know that if the other party does not participate in the process they assume that the inquirer is correct? I know plenty of people whose marriages were not annulled because the previous spouse would NOT verify the claims of the person seeking the annulment.
That’s why it takes so long. Lots of stories to verify.
I’m sorry for your friend.
It’s not a perfect not infallible situation, but for many, it’s a healing thing that brings people back from a really dark place.
 
Did you forget that “almost no one in Columbia gets married…” If no one in Columbia is marrying, then how can they get a divorce?
There’s a small percentage of people getting married and then an even smaller percentage of those getting divorced.

Have a look at the stats I linked.
 
Hello,

I can’t be too impressed with that page, when they say “The Code of Canon Law states marriage annulments are to be based only on ‘GRAVE marital deficiencies.’” I can’t say that I have the entire Code committed to memory but I have no recollection of such a quote anywhere in the Code.

And, to laud the so-called “internal forum” as if that would help anyone “save our sacrament”? Odd.

I guess I must be one of the “majority” of “tribunal personnel” who “are angry, arrogant, and verbally abusive to Respondents.”

That being said, there indeed differences in procedure now, compared to 1929. Most importantly, a lot more people can now submit a nullity case. Maybe another topic for another time.

Dan
Hello Mr. Dan:
It seems from your answer that you are a tribunal member or a participant in the tribunal process. In your experience, of those who got divorced and applied for the annulment, what percentage actually received it?
Thanks.
 
You do know, that people lie in their paperwork, correct?
And you do know that if the other party does not participate in the process they assume that the inquirer is correct? I know plenty of people whose marriages were not annulled because the previous spouse would NOT verify the claims of the person seeking the annulment.
That’s why it takes so long. Lots of stories to verify.
I’m sorry for your friend.
It’s not a perfect not infallible situation, but for many, it’s a healing thing that brings people back from a really dark place.
In the case that I had mentioned, the husband was thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation and as a result refused to participate in the annulment process. The wife had stolen his house and children and he had nothing left in life. His heart and his life were ruined. He and many of his relatives sobbed and cried for many days at the injustice of the situation, especially since his wife was so friendly (in an illicit sense) with the local priest.
Please read: A Daughters Reflection:
saveoursacrament.org/index.html
 
I haven’t read your links, but you seriously think that only 10 people in the entire US deserved an annulment in 1929?

What about all the women with secretly gay husbands? Even today, there are probably into six digits of those across the US.

Or what about serious mental illness predating marriage?

Or Vegas weddings?

Or immigration fraud weddings?

Or women marrying FLDS, knowing that they will be the legal wife, to be followed by half a dozen sister wives?

Even with very atypical situations (like the FLDS), it’s very easy to get above 10. There’s almost always 10 of something.
Right - all of these are easy, “open-and-shut” cases, (as is a pre-nuptial agreement, btw). But it is true that, honestly, I think this is probably the minority of cases. They do exist (for example, my wife’s annulment was given due to her 1st husband marrying her only for a green card), but I think the vast majority are much vaguer instances - instances where a marriage ended, and the petitioner is looking for an “excuse” to why it wasn’t valid to begin with. Unfortunately, most of these are granted, as well, due to the fact that our catechesis has been poor in general, and specifically regarding what marriage is.

And I can understand the hurt that some people would have regarding annulments - especially if the petitioner for the annulment is the same as the petitioner for a divorce, and even more especially if such petitioner asked for a divorce in the first place because he/she had “found a newer model”, as it were. In other words, I can see how a respondent would feel if the petitioner asked for an annulment due to the petitioner leaving to please the petitioner’s needs, yet trying to put the blame on the respondent.
 
Not true. Because I know of the actual case. It is not hypothetical.
You say you know the case - but you must have left out some aspects … you say
However, if a couple gets married, and has several children, and for 15 years everything is OK, but then all of a sudden the wife decides she wants to be free from the current marriage and with her new boyfriend, then what? She also wants to stay in the Catholic Church and be able to receive Holy Communion with her newfound lover. So she applies for an annulments saying that she did not know what she was getting into when she was married 15 years ago?


What facts were presented in support that she did not know what she was getting into? …

Did you know the couple before they married?

Did they live together or engage in sexual relations before marriage?

Was there abuse in either household growing up whether sexual, substance, physical?

How long did the couple know each other?

Did they use ABC in the marriage?

Are both active practicing Catholics?

I personally know many priests - not one of which would accept a case if someone walked in and said - I did not know what I was getting into when I married and I have a new boyfriend I want sleep with while actively practicing my faith … 🤷 They would require far more information then that. So they must have given more then what you presented.

What matters is the conditions that existed at the time of the marriage - behavior [like using ABC] can be an indication of the conditions that existed - not being open to life … or finding out that one of the parties had sex with a third person a month before the wedding as well as other adulterous relationships after could indicate they had no intention of fidelity …

A marriage contracted because of a pregnancy is not being made freely without pressure - laudable as it may be …

A young woman who is from a home where abuse is present may see it as an escape route - only to escape into a different kind of hell - even if they did not fully realize that is what they were doing at the time due to immaturity or other stress …

It is not as easy as you might think to obtain an annulment … and one of the complaints on your favorite website is the depth and personal nature of the questions being asked … they complain that there is something wrong - but also complain about the investigation being too intrusive … You cant really have it both ways …

I also note there is no real angst about the civil aspects - is it really so much worse to determine that the couple did not fully comprehend the vow they were making when they made it - more so then that the marriage ended by divorce … For example - the daughter’s story - she is not greatly concerned that her parents are divorced - actually seems somewhat relieved - but very concerned that the Church states no Sacramental marriage occurred. She indicates that her father is unstable - not wanting children … Would that not give credence that he was not well prepared for marriage? The real tragedy here is that her parents [both of them] failed to provide a stable home for her and her sister - instead of voicing that - she is mad at the Church.

I think people mourn the death of their marriages, it is not easy to fail at one of the most important life events you experience - one that is very public and involves a wide circle of people [children, family and friends] -

The annulment process can help them understand why it failed - even if the validity is upheld - thus it should be a positive process that can prepare them for future relationships … whether that is a renewal of opportunity for those whose marriages are upheld to rethink their separation/divorce, for those who might later marry again due to the decision - or those who know with certainty that they cannot date and marry because their marriage was determined valid …
 
Right - all of these are easy, “open-and-shut” cases, (as is a pre-nuptial agreement, btw). But it is true that, honestly, I think this is probably the minority of cases.

**Right. I was just attempting to demonstrate that 10 annulments a year would be ridiculously low for the US as a goal, as tomdstone was holding that up as an ideal.

Here are two more open-and-shut ones:

–One spouse feels that deep down inside he is actually a she, or she is actually a he.

–One spouse is a pedophile.

There are lots of those cases.**

They do exist (for example, my wife’s annulment was given due to her 1st husband marrying her only for a green card), but I think the vast majority are much vaguer instances - instances where a marriage ended, and the petitioner is looking for an “excuse” to why it wasn’t valid to begin with. Unfortunately, most of these are granted, as well, due to the fact that our catechesis has been poor in general, and specifically regarding what marriage is.

And I can understand the hurt that some people would have regarding annulments - especially if the petitioner for the annulment is the same as the petitioner for a divorce, and even more especially if such petitioner asked for a divorce in the first place because he/she had “found a newer model”, as it were. In other words, I can see how a respondent would feel if the petitioner asked for an annulment due to the petitioner leaving to please the petitioner’s needs, yet trying to put the blame on the respondent.
 
You say you know the case - but you must have left out some aspects … you say …

What facts were presented in support that she did not know what she was getting into? …

Did you know the couple before they married?

Did they live together or engage in sexual relations before marriage?

Was there abuse in either household growing up whether sexual, substance, physical?

How long did the couple know each other?

Did they use ABC in the marriage?

Are both active practicing Catholics?

I personally know many priests - not one of which would accept a case if someone walked in and said - I did not know what I was getting into when I married and I have a new boyfriend I want sleep with while actively practicing my faith … 🤷 They would require far more information then that. So they must have given more then what you presented.

What matters is the conditions that existed at the time of the marriage - behavior [like using ABC] can be an indication of the conditions that existed - not being open to life … or finding out that one of the parties had sex with a third person a month before the wedding as well as other adulterous relationships after could indicate they had no intention of fidelity …

A marriage contracted because of a pregnancy is not being made freely without pressure - laudable as it may be …

A young woman who is from a home where abuse is present may see it as an escape route - only to escape into a different kind of hell - even if they did not fully realize that is what they were doing at the time due to immaturity or other stress …

It is not as easy as you might think to obtain an annulment … and one of the complaints on your favorite website is the depth and personal nature of the questions being asked … they complain that there is something wrong - but also complain about the investigation being too intrusive … You cant really have it both ways …

I also note there is no real angst about the civil aspects - is it really so much worse to determine that the couple did not fully comprehend the vow they were making when they made it - more so then that the marriage ended by divorce … For example - the daughter’s story - she is not greatly concerned that her parents are divorced - actually seems somewhat relieved - but very concerned that the Church states no Sacramental marriage occurred. She indicates that her father is unstable - not wanting children … Would that not give credence that he was not well prepared for marriage? The real tragedy here is that her parents [both of them] failed to provide a stable home for her and her sister - instead of voicing that - she is mad at the Church.

I think people mourn the death of their marriages, it is not easy to fail at one of the most important life events you experience - one that is very public and involves a wide circle of people [children, family and friends] -

The annulment process can help them understand why it failed - even if the validity is upheld - thus it should be a positive process that can prepare them for future relationships … whether that is a renewal of opportunity for those whose marriages are upheld to rethink their separation/divorce, for those who might later marry again due to the decision - or those who know with certainty that they cannot date and marry because their marriage was determined valid …
Yes!
 
In the case that I had mentioned, the husband was thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation and as a result refused to participate in the annulment process. The wife had stolen his house and children and he had nothing left in life. His heart and his life were ruined. He and many of his relatives sobbed and cried for many days at the injustice of the situation, especially since his wife was so friendly (in an illicit sense) with the local priest.
Please read: A Daughters Reflection:
saveoursacrament.org/index.html
From the SOS website:

“There are Canon Laws, & U.S. tribunals, that would annul even Mary and Joseph’s marriage!”

It was unconsummated, so yeah. I forget the exact canonical terminology, but I believe an unconsummated marriage may be dissolved.
 
In the case that I had mentioned, the husband was thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation and as a result refused to participate in the annulment process. The wife had stolen his house and children and he had nothing left in life. His heart and his life were ruined. He and many of his relatives sobbed and cried for many days at the injustice of the situation, especially since his wife was so friendly (in an illicit sense) with the local priest.
Please read: A Daughters Reflection:
saveoursacrament.org/index.html
Then what needs to happen is that the respondents need to follow through and be empowered. I’m sorry about what happened to your friend. I admit, abuses occur in every system. By the same token, there are many annulments that are granted where anyone on the street would agree with the petitioner, and there are a large portion that are “gray cases”, as it were. And actually, even if a tribunal grants a decree of nullity, they can also impose restrictions on the petitioner and/or respondent should he/she wish to remarry. They can even say that the petitioner and/or respondent can never remarry due to the factors that made it so that the annulment was granted being so deep-seated that it would be impossible for the person to enter into a valid marriage.
 
In the case that I had mentioned, the husband was thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation and as a result refused to participate in the annulment process. The wife had stolen his house and children and he had nothing left in life. His heart and his life were ruined. He and many of his relatives sobbed and cried for many days at the injustice of the situation, **especially since his wife was so friendly (in an illicit sense) with the local priest.**Please read: A Daughters Reflection:
saveoursacrament.org/index.html
:eek: you are saying that this woman was having sexual relations with an active priest :eek: and all the man and the family did was cry … :confused: if this is in fact the case - the Bishop should be presented with the evidence …

Sadly many years back - nearly 15 or so - A priest in my diocese was told by the Bishop that he had to make a choice - his priesthood vocation or his girlfriend - he chose the girlfriend … its sad but really - it was important that the ‘situation’ was dealt with …

Mere recently a nearby parish had their priest announce at Mass they were leaving and then soon married …

However, all you are responding to is current actions … not any information about what the conditions and maturity level were at the marriage - which is the real crux of the issue -however, what you say about the more resent actions of the wife could be illustrative of her state of mind at the time of the marriage …
 
I read the Daughter’s Reflection from here:

saveoursacrament.org/index.html

She obviously feels a lot of pain, but it’s impossible to draw a straight line of casuality between her parents’ annulment and her feelings–it’s obvious from her account that her dad was always a selfish, erratic fruit loop, with perhaps a sprinkling of mental illness, if not more.

"During my parents’ marriage, my father twice left suddenly and did not initiate contact with either my sister or I for months afterwards. By the time we would receive a card with no return address or means of contacting him, we had already felt rejected and hurt. When I was 14, my father, disgusted and bitter over the choices that he’d made in his own life advised me, “Don’t ever get married and don’t ever have kids. That was my biggest mistake.” Apparently, it’s never too late to make “corrections”, because less than two years later he moved out, cutoff all contact with my mother, sister and I.

"Each time my father left, he blamed the entire family for his leaving, not just my mother. He claimed things at home “weren’t working.” In the months leading up to his departure, he would often tell my sister and I that if we did not start behaving or getting along that he was going to leave, and that we would have to live with the knowledge that we broke up our parents’ marriage. My sister and I had always been well-behaved kids who had high grades and filled our time with 4-H, Girl Scouts and theater. We rarely got in trouble or even disagreed much. Still, for years afterwards we often wondered what we could have done to prevent his departure.

“This is the man who the Catholic Church was saying was fit to remarry as they were granting him an annulment. Today I believe seeking an annulment is a natural course of action for somebody who had difficulty taking responsibilities for their decisions and their mistakes.”

So, he was pulling these disappearing stunts literally years before he actually divorced his wife. And yet his daughter blames all her woes on the annulment process…
 
You say you know the case - but you must have left out some aspects … you say …

What facts were presented in support that she did not know what she was getting into? …

Did you know the couple before they married?

Did they live together or engage in sexual relations before marriage?

Was there abuse in either household growing up whether sexual, substance, physical?

How long did the couple know each other?

Did they use ABC in the marriage?

Are both active practicing Catholics?.
Did you know the couple before they married? Yes.
Did they live together or engage in sexual relations before marriage? No.
Was there abuse in either household growing up whether sexual, substance, physical?
No. Except that the wife was unfaithful to the marriage on several occasions. The husband was faithful.
How long did the couple know each other? 1 year 6 mos. before marriage. 15 years of marriage.
Did they use ABC in the marriage? No.
Are both active practicing Catholics? During the marriage, yes. The wife was active in the local parish. After the annulment, the wife became more active in the parish with her new husband and the former husband has become disillusioned with the Catholic Church. In the meantime her post annulment (second) husband was arrested and put in jail a few times. I heard it was for dealing in drugs but I haven’t kept up with the situation. The wife is still very active in the Catholic Church.
 
I haven’t read your links, but you seriously think that only 10 people in the entire US deserved an annulment in 1929?

What about all the women with secretly gay husbands? Even today, there are probably into six digits of those across the US.

Or what about serious mental illness predating marriage?

Or Vegas weddings?

Or immigration fraud weddings?

Or women marrying FLDS, knowing that they will be the legal wife, to be followed by half a dozen sister wives?

Even with very atypical situations (like the FLDS), it’s very easy to get above 10. There’s almost always 10 of something.
Xantippe:

These are all good examples. I had a babysitter when I was a kid in the 1970’s (she and her sister were our next door neighbors) who married a man. A few months later, she found out he was homosexual. My mother told me many years later that her marriage was annulled.

This may have been an annulment that was granted through the civil courts. Vegas weddings that lasted a matter of days have also sometimes been annulled through the civil court system too. As of today, I know that an annulment in certain situations (such as a marriage not consummated, maybe marrying a first cousin) can be granted through the civil courts, but there are many restrictions, such as the duration of a marriage (Maybe Kim K could have received one - she was married 72 days, and that was actually her second marriage - no joke). I also think the reason these aren’t as common today is divorce lawyers are looking to make a dollar by taking advantage of couples in these situations.

I also met a Catholic girl who was a convert, and she had been married in a foreign country overseas (I think it was India). Her Church annulment was granted primarily because her marriage was an arranged marriage, so she did not freely marry her spouse.

Immigration…yes, those sometimes happen (sometimes). A man marries a woman from a foreign country, brings her to the United States, and when the woman is eligible to get a green card, she leaves. Sadly, those do occur from time to time, particularly if the woman’s motive in the beginning was to get a green card.

Now to pick on men (I am one): There have been cases of marriages where a man married a woman so she could work and put him through medical school or law school. Not long after graduation, some men (not all) ask for a divorce, and the woman is crushed. Some men in this situation did not have the intent of keeping a long-term marriage in the first place. Instead, the man should have taken out loans or worked a few years before applying to professional school.

There were also cases between 1900 and 1960 where a woman’s motivation to get married might have been (and I say, might have been) just to leave home, particularly if she had a rough life growing up. It is likely that some of the women were not exactly in love with their fiance, but felt they had no other options. My great grandmother married her second husband not long after her first husband died, primarily because she had two kids to care for. According to my dad, that was really the only option my great grandmother had for stability and income circa 1900.

It boils down to…what happened at the time of the wedding?
 
Did you know the couple before they married? Yes.
Did they live together or engage in sexual relations before marriage? No.
Was there abuse in either household growing up whether sexual, substance, physical?
Generally, No. Except that the wife was unfaithful to the marriage on several occasions. The husband was faithful.
How long did the couple know each other? 1 year 6 mos. before marriage. 15 years of marriage.
Did they use ABC in the marriage? No.
Are both active practicing Catholics? During the marriage, yes. The wife was active in the local parish. After the annulment, the wife became more active in the parish with her new husband and the former husband has become disillusioned with the Catholic Church. In the meantime her post annulment (second) husband was arrested and put in jail a few times. I heard it was for dealing in drugs but I haven’t kept up with the situation. The wife is still very active in the Catholic Church.
If the wife was persistently unfaithful throughout the marriage, that does sound like a pretty good case for annulment–it suggests that she did not marry intending fidelity.
 
If the wife was persistently unfaithful throughout the marriage, that does sound like a pretty good case for annulment–it suggests that she did not marry intending fidelity.
My thoughts too … especially after the “illicit relations” with a priest too …she is obviously someone who is not a respecter of vows … 😦

The husband should have participated in the process

It also sounds like they did not really know each other very long - really a year and a half is not long …

And either one was not Catholic when they met or was a non practicing Catholic - because the qualifier was that they were practicing “during the marriage”

and I wonder how much is really known about the home life of both parties - the conditions in which we are raised have a real impact on our thoughts and actions
 
If the wife was persistently unfaithful throughout the marriage, that does sound like a pretty good case for annulment–it suggests that she did not marry intending fidelity.
The unfaithfulness did not occur until 15 years after the marriage.
 
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