Are most marriages invalid?

[Tomdstone]

My thoughts too … especially after the “illicit relations” with a priest too …she is obviously someone who is not a respecter of vows …

The husband should have participated in the process

It also sounds like they did not really know each other very long - really a year and a half is not long …

And either one was not Catholic when they met or was a non practicing Catholic - because the qualifier was that they were practicing “during the marriage”

and I wonder how much is really known about the home life of both parties - the conditions in which we are raised have a real impact on our thoughts and actions

They were both Catholics from infancy.

 

[powerofk]

They were both Catholics from infancy.

Regardless of the circumstances, help him look on the bright side. The decree of nullity allows him to start over and marry in the Church again, as well. Or, he could use it and realize that he has been called to the priesthood (as widowers and men who have received decrees of nullity, yet have not remarried are allowed to apply to the seminary). Who knows.

From what you stated, it’s horrific what this man has gone through. Seriously. Be there, as his friend, and try to help him pick up the pieces. And help him put his trust back into God and His Church. Pray for him, as I post here prayers for him, as well:

Our Father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy Will be done,
On Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
The LORD is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.
Amen.

Glory be to the Father,
And to the Son,
And to the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

 

[Xantippe]

Regardless of the circumstances, help him look on the bright side. The decree of nullity allows him to start over and marry in the Church again, as well. Or, he could use it and realize that he has been called to the priesthood (as widowers and men who have received decrees of nullity, yet have not remarried are allowed to apply to the seminary). Who knows.

Yes!

 

[Tomdstone]

you obviously have a theory.
Let’s hear it.

My theory is taken from something that His Eminence Walter Cardinal Kasper had written:
“take the case of a couple who are ten years married and have children, in the first years they had a happy marriage, but for different reasons the marriage fell apart. This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way.”
My theory is that divorce is a more honest approach to this situation. To say that there never was a marriage, or that the marriage was null and void, or something like that seems to me to be dishonest. The way I see it, in cases such as His Eminence Walter Cardinal Kasper was talking about, something that happens 15 years after the marriage, a divorce is the correct thing to do, as the Eastern Orthodox have it. There really was a marriage in cases such as he mentioned, and the marriage lasted for a while, but later on the marriage had failed perhaps because of the infidelity of one of the partners, so a divorce would be in order, and the honest way of correcting the problem. To say that there never was a marriage, or that it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me also, and so I agree with Cardinal Kasper.

 

[Tomdstone]

Regardless of the circumstances, help him look on the bright side.

Yes, you are right. He was happy for 14 years of marriage, but when he found out what was occurring in the 15th year, he was devastated and felt his whole life was ruined. But to be honest, in the end, he was glad to get rid of her. Unfortunately, he has left the Church and his decision appears to me to be quite firm. He has since remarried, but not in the Church, and all indications are that this new marriage is working out quite nicely for both people.
So in some sense it has turned out OK for him in the end, except that he lost his house and the wife had the custody of the children and he no longer is Catholic. But as I mentioned in my previous post, #183, this seems to me to be a case that is relevant to what Cardinal Kasper was talking about.
Wishing you and everyone on this thread every success and good wish for the year 2015.

 

[mariemargaret]

i’ve been watching this thread, and I’ll put my .02 in…

I just want to add that there are often ‘little’ things that are there at the time of the vows that can and do cause problems in marriages that look perfectly happy, and maybe are happy for years, but can cause a marriage to fall apart years later…

So, in this 15 year marriage, let’s say there is some personality issue that was unnoticed or didn’t become an issue until children were born. Let’s say the wife leans towards narcissism and the marriage fulfilled her ego needs at first and all looks good, but then kids came along and the couple becomes busy with the kids now. She becomes overwhelmed with responsibilities that aren’t about her, and her husband is now attentive to the children instead of her; she becomes very unhappy. This is something that existed when they were married, but didn’t become a problem until later.

Or, say the husband has a pornography habit at the time of the wedding, that he knows his wife would disapprove of, so he keeps it hidden from her for those 15 years. He slowly distances himself from his wife over those years, she sees the distance but doesn’t know why it is happening, and it goes downhill from there.

Just two examples, but I’m sure there are others. These marriages could be salvaged, but I would argue that they could be found to have been invalid from the beginning. To salvage these marriages would require a willingness for both parties to choose to try to fix the marriage, and by the time they are discovered it may be too late. The wife in the last example would need to overcome some pretty major trust issues, and the wife in the first example would probably not be very happy, for example.

And I saw that HoosierDaddy has a different thread on this topic too… should these marriages be salvaged, if they were indeed not sacramental from the start?

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Friends of mine are seeking annulments of prior marriages. The person with whom they are working told them that most of the time, annulments are granted. This seems weird to me. It implies most marriages are invalid according to the catholic church. Is this correct?

Rather it implies that valid marriages never fail. Maybe the graces that one receives in a valid marriage really always are sufficient. I don’t know if I really buy it but I don’t have a dog in the fight either.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Refocusing on the original question. Viewing the fact that the divorce rate is high in western culture. And in some countries, America included, the norm and the majority, not to mention the millions of marriages that would be contracted invalidly according to Catholic law, I would say that , yes, most marriages are indeed invalid according to the Catholic viewpoint. Up to and including state sanctioned gay “marriage” Which will force the Church to further curb and define what a “civil marriage” means from a Catholic perspective.

 

[marymary1975]

Having a dear friend in Columbia…he told me that almost no one in Columbia gets married. They just decide who their partner is and run with it. In fact, they have the lowest marriage rate in the world. Which could also possibly account for the low divorce rate.

This is true, while Colombia has the lowest divorce rate after Peru (and technically chile but i wouldnt count Chile here) they have a low marriage rate. They have a lot of cohabitation and very high rates of children born outside of marriage. However despite that I think their divorce rate within the past 3 year has gone up considerably.

The low divorce rate in Chile is a no brainer. Civil Divorce is not permitted in Chile except in very rare and extreme cases, so the divorce rate is the lowest there worldwide probably because is the only country that doesn’t allow divorce.

 

[marymary1975]

Doesn’t Columbia have a large Catholic population?

actually Colombia has been massively affected by secularism imported from the united states and the radical feminist movement and pro gay movement have gained a lot and I mean a lot of adepts in Colombia. Back in the 90’s it used to be 80% of catholics but I know for a fact that that number has gone considerably down.

 

[MJJean]

Refocusing on the original question. Viewing the fact that the divorce rate is high in western culture. And in some countries, America included, the norm and the majority, not to mention the millions of marriages that would be contracted invalidly according to Catholic law, I would say that , yes, most marriages are indeed invalid according to the Catholic viewpoint. Up to and including state sanctioned gay “marriage” Which will force the Church to further curb and define what a “civil marriage” means from a Catholic perspective.

I agree with you. I do believe most marriages here in the U.S. are invalid.

First, because most of our culture believes that divorce can and does dissolve a marriage. The fact that so many are marrying believing themselves to be entering into a union that can be dissolved means they aren’t consenting to marriage as understood by the Church.

Second, many people marry with intentions against marriage itself. Those who believe monogamy is optional, who never want to have children, those who only speak the vows for some kind of gain (green card, money), etc.

Third, because so many catholics believe it’s ok to marry outside the Church. We, here, know those marriages to be invalid. The participants either don’t know they are/were required to marry in the Church or get a dispensation or they don’t care.

Fourth, those who marry without being able to understand and fulfill the duties and obligations of marriage. Example, those who suffer from mental illness that affects their ability to understand, their ability to function as a spouse, and/or that affects their judgement.

And, last, because so many catholics and non-catholics marry persons who have been previously married and who have not received annulment.

You asked earlier if it was possible for someone to spend their entire lives in an invalid marriage without knowing it. Sure it is! I have aunts, uncles, in-laws, and friends who are in what are invalid marriages according to the Church and who either don’t know that or don’t believe it.

When I began researching annulment and learned the Church’s teachings on marriage I realized I know very few people who are in valid marriages. By few, I mean less than 10.

 

[dans0622]

What do you say is the correct statistic?
“The percentage of marriages declared invalid by an American Tribunal but reversed by the Roman Rota. In his book, The Annulment Crisis in American Catholicism, Sociology Professor Robert Vasoli analyzed two studies of marriage cases from America that were reviewed by the Roman Rota over a ten year period in the 1980’s and 1990’s. His analysis reveals what he called a “stunning” 92 percent reversal rate.”
fathersofmercy.com/news/fr-chuck-zmudzinski-annulments/

I put a review of this statistic on my blog. This link or the one in my signature will take you there. I hope it is both informative and understandable.

anotherbrickinthelaw.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-rota-overturns-92-of-usa-nullity.html

Dan

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s an example of a situation that I suspect might involve invalidity (and even possibly some mental illness or mental impediment):

dearwendy.com/topic/my-husband-resents-me-because-he-wants-to-move-and-i-dont/

The couple has two little kids (3 and 5), the husband has a tendency frequently to quit jobs, endangering his family’s financial well-being, he initially wanted to move them back to his home state with no savings and no solid job lined up (he wanted to start a business), he regarded the wife’s plan of saving up for the move as unreasonable, and by the end of the thread, the wife has discovered that he wants a divorce. (“He cares about me, but doesn’t love me. Probably never did.”)

This is a type of person who makes bad decision after bad decision. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that the immaturity and impulsivity that guides his job-quitting and his desire for a divorce also points to a possibility that similar immaturity may have been in play years ago when he and his wife married.