Are most of the early church fathers writings false or forgeries?

[Wesrock]

Bushum:

Because for Protestantism to be true the church fathers MUST be false.

This might be true for “non-denominational” Protestants, but “High Church” Protestants, who are learned in Church (and not meaning exclusively Catholic) History, actually embrace the Fathers of the Church.

This is true, and I wanted to come back and comment on it. We still have our disagreements, but we can’t paint all Protestants with the same brush. There are those who don’t bother with the ECFs, but others do.

 

[DictatorCzar]

Checkout Cleveland street preachers, he is an anti Catholics, he believes only some will be saved if they don’t do some of the Catholic teachings.

 

[Seeksadvice]

Would this same person say that the works ascribed to Pliny the Elder are forgeries? Or, the teachings of Socrates, which, if my history serves me correctly, were never physically written by him?

It would not surprise me if the texts of some early Church fathers were not physically written by them given the limited literacy rates at the time. That’s not to say they were not authored by them, or that they are not authentic.

 

[DictatorCzar]

Please disprove all of this please from Cleveland street preacher. He used to be Catholic but he’s kind of like one of those rogue Christians who follow the Bible but don’t have a church and preach the gospel. Please disprove this. In order for organization, after I get answers, I will email him again.

1. Where does Jesus ever say to ask for Mary to pray for others?
2. Why didn’t Jesus ever say, “Ask Saint Moses to pray for you?” Why didn’t Jesus teach us to communicate with those who already are passed on into eternity? Doesn’t Jesus say Matthew 6:6 only God the Father has the power to hear and see what we do in secret? Do you believe in what Jesus is telling you or do you want to believe in what Catholics are telling you?
3. Just because you see bishops in the Catholic church does not mean it is the true church. Did you know there are many non denominational churches with bishops and deacons???
4. 50 AD who cares! We read from the Scriptures that many people were already doing false teachings already, as soon as Christ died! Paul rebukes the Corinthians. That was earlier than 50 AD. Jesus rebukes churches in Revelation 2 and 3. So these teachings of baptism were not truth! Why? Where do we see any baby getting baptized in water? Never. Why? Because water baptism is for remission of sins. Do babies have sins? What does Jesus say? No. He says they do not have sins. They do not even have the ability to repent for the remission of sins. Jesus says the kingdom belongs to children.
5. Where in the Bible is the word “purgatory?” Nowhere. It is Catholic made.
6. Where in the Bible do we see the word, “pope?” Nowhere. It is a Catholic made position.
7. The priesthood was done away with in the New Testament. You don’t see the office of priest in Ephesians 4:11.
8. Peter was not a Catholic. Catholics lied for centuries saying he was buried in Rome. We recently found his bones in Jerusalem, not Rome. Peter did not teach anything the Catholics teach. Peter never mentions sacraments. Peter never mentions doing confessions with people. Peter never mentions to ask saints that passed away to pray for you. Peter never prayed or communicated with Mary.
9. Why didn’t ONE, SINGLE epistle ever mention communicating with Mary??? If it was so important, why didn’t Paul, John, Peter, or anyone say to do it or that they did it???
10. Have you watched my videos describing what it means to eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood?
11. Why don’t you see the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit moving in the Catholic churches? These people are dead. Their mass services are dead. The people are not alive, clapping, rejoicing. They are dead. They have bingo and serve beer on occassions to parishiners. Is this holy? Is this godly?
12. Jesus says to follow Him only in Matthew 16:24. If Jesus wanted you to follow someone else, He would have said to, but He didn’t. Why? So why do you keep wanting to follow Catholics years ago instead of following Jesus directly from His Gospels as He commands? Why do you want to obey these Catholics instead of Jesus?

 

[CTBcin]

Because for Protestantism to be true the church fathers MUST be false. When investigated past the surface with any objective reasoning Protestantism falls apart. I say this as someone who was Protestant for 36 years until I could no longer reconcile the logical fallacies and inconsistency.

Well, as someone who grew up Protestant, I know that. But what logical basis do they have to question the validity of the early Church Fathers? Even most Protestants I know who are actually familiar with their writings don’t go that far.

 

[Seeksadvice]

I spent 20-25 years of my life as a Methodist. I spent ~10-15 years as an atheist. I joined the Church this year. For the first time in forty years, I have felt the presence of Christ so strongly that it caught me by surprise one day in an empty church, and even had me readying my carry piece in its concealed location before I realize what it was.

Way back in the day, there was only one option (more or less) for Christianity. It’s where all “Western” Bibles have their roots. So, if the idea is that there were all of these false documents, teachings, etc. floating around at the time, and that the Church adopted them… well, that leaves Protestants with a problem too. If the Gospel of John (written after the other three Gospels), for example, wasn’t written by John (through his secretary/clerk/scribe), then both Catholic and Protestant Bibles are wrong. The same goes for the other Gospels and the various Epistles in the New Testament.

Hebrews is the one letter/book of the New Testament that nobody is really sure who wrote. You’ll find it across all denominations.

RE bishops: lots of denominations have bishops. This argument works the other way as well… if churches A, B, and C have bishops, then how can members of A, B, or C have any confidence that their church is the “right one?” Does his church have bishops? If so, then how can he be so sure his is “right,” after all the Catholic church has them too.

With regard to finding particular words in the Bible: remember the age of the documents, and what was going on at the time. You won’t find the word cathedral in there either, despite both Catholic and Protestant churches having such things. New words exist to address positions… is it easier to say Pope or Bishop of Rome?

As far as people being “alive” at services… that doesn’t mean anything. People were “alive” at the Nuremberg rallies. People were “alive” at Jim Jones’s thing… until they drank the Kool-Aid. Study psychology, and you’ll learn that you can get people clappin’ and slappin’ through purely secular means. Seriously, if the “validity” of a church is based on people people clappin’ and slappin’, that’s a problem. Does a heavy metal band represent the true church simply because people become more animated at their concerts?

I get the feeling that this street preacher is in the same category as the people who wander around with signs saying that the end is nigh.

 

[Seeksadvice]

I’d also challenge this street preacher whether he has the guts or not to admit that his Bible is derived from the work of the Catholic Church, and that his church has no idea who wrote The Letter to the Hebrews.

With regard to Mary, I noticed something interesting at a local Methodist Church where I was attending a funeral. They had banners up for Lent, and one of them directly addressed the exchange between Jesus and, I believe it was, John (not the Gospel writing John) and Mary about “woman behold your son.” John 19:26-27.

There is also the portion of the Old Testament, 1 Kings 2:13-21, dealing with the fact that if you really, really needed to ask something of the King (Solomon in this case), you did not go to him directly. You went to the “Queen Mother,” who was the mother of the King who would then ask the King on your behalf. If you accept the fact that the Bible is all inspired material (and this exchange is part of the Protestant Bible too), and therefore that nothing superfluous is added, then would not the same protocol follow for the King of Kings?

Haven’t watched any videos about eating Christ’s flesh and drinking his blood from this guy, nor do I plan to.

It’s late, I apologize for any typos.

 

[DictatorCzar]

For my last reply earlier, please answer each question in number format so It could changed his mind on the church. He keeps making lies of the Catholic Church.
His YouTube channel is called Cleveland Street Preacher.

 

[prayerrider]

Stick with the Church Fathers and Aquinas, and you’ll never go far astray in your theology.
In fact, Aquinas compiled a most brilliant compendium of the Church Fathers’ commentaries on the Gospels, the Catena Aurea.

 

[ZMystiCat]

He said that most of the early church writings are forgeries and false.

Unless he has some pretty convincing evidence, this argument essentially boils down to, “I don’t like it so it must be fake!”

Please help persuade this person.

Speaking as a former Protestant: There comes a point at which it just isn’t possible to convince a person. Ten years ago, I would have been completely unwilling to accept Catholicism. Even if you had convinced me that the Church Fathers were authentic, I would have retorted, “But it’s just tradition!” It was a considerable process getting me from there to becoming Catholic.

This isn’t to say to never speak to someone, but just realize that where someone is in their life at some point in time might leave them very unwilling to consider Catholicism, and you can’t so much convince them as maybe plant a few seeds for them to consider later.

His user name is [redacted]

Please delete this post. We shouldn’t share this kind of info on the forum, especially when real names are involved.

actually embrace the Fathers of the Church

This is only true to an extent. Things tend to start breaking down if you push hard enough. To be fair, the seeds of respect for tradition are sown, but there’s still a bit of cognitive dissonance that must be overcome. I say this as a former Presbyterian who wrestled with this for a while.

 

[DictatorCzar]

It’s not a real name. He’s a kind of big street preacher. As you can see in my earlier replies. He has some problems with Catholicism. If these questions can be answered in numbered format. I will be greatly appreciated. He would probably know more about the Catholic Faith. All he does is keep making lies about Catholicism.

 

[ZMystiCat]

I’m not going to cover every point. There’s too much, and there’s a lot of repetition and similar flaws in logic.

Where does Jesus ever say to ask for Mary to pray for others?

First, we should recognize that much of what Jesus said or did was no recorded, as acknowledged in Scripture (John 21:25).

Second, where did He say not to? This type of argument really comes down to argument from ignorance, which gets us nowhere. Of the two options, though, it seems more likely that Jesus would want us to seek out those to pray for us than not.

Third, Mary was alive through Jesus’ entire ministry. There was no point in “praying” to her as we understand prayer today. Someone could just go to her and ask, “Could you please pray for me?”

Doesn’t Jesus say Matthew 6:6 only God the Father has the power to hear and see what we do in secret?

No, it doesn’t. It says don’t make a show of prayers to God.

Just because you see bishops in the Catholic church does not mean it is the true church. Did you know there are many non denominational churches with bishops and deacons???

I’d look into apostolic succession, since that’s really what makes the idea of the Bishop so important in Catholicism. Protestants don’t follow this.

We read from the Scriptures that many people were already doing false teachings already

We also read that the Church was promised to stand regardless of various errors that crept in (Matt. 16:17-19).

Where do we see any baby getting baptized in water? Never.

This goes back to argument from ignorance, since we never have a command against it. (Granted, a couple episodes in Scripture indicate familial baptism, which might have included infants, but we don’t know for sure.) The earliest records of infant baptism, though, don’t hint at an ongoing debate, which would be standard if the matter were ever disputed. As such, the onus is on those denying it to indicate that this was actually debated. It was very likely never included in Scripture due to never being a point of contention, which is where much of Scripture comes from.

Where in the Bible do we see the word, “pope?” Nowhere.

“Pope” is a title for an office. The title may not appear in Scripture, but the office certainly does (Matt. 16:17-19).

The same goes for “priest”, which etymologically can be used to replace “presbyter”.

Jesus says to follow Him only in Matthew 16:24.

Well, then, I guess it is a good thing we follow Him and remain a part of the Church He set up (Matt. 16:17-19).

 

[Dovekin]

We didn’t wait for modern criticism to discern the true from the false.

The situation with the letters of St Ignatius is more complicated than you are saying. The 7 authentic letters were circulated with significant interpolations in the text. So there were two versions of the letter to Smyrna, two to Ephesus, etc.

For the most part people did not realize this. They read the version they had. The longer letters were more widespread because they supported more of theology that developed during the Councils. It was not until the 18-19th century. It was modern criticism that uncovered the originals. Some English versions provide both versions.

This led many people to reject any writing from St Ignatius as forgeries. Important passages, particularly on bishops were thrown out with the interpolations. If someonr rejects modern critical thinking, they may still br discarded somewhere.

 

[Haven]

I see. Thank you for teaching me all this. Nevertheless, there are many letters attributed to Ignatius which have been recognized as false since antiquity and which are still so today