Are most people going to Hell?

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Hermione:
So my question to everyone here is: **If your faith gives you joy and peace, please explain how, and where does the fear of Hell and therefore of sin fit in? AND what do you believe about Hell? Do you believe it’s easy to end up there? Difficult? Do you believe most people go there? **
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Hermonie -

Mortal sin takes effort. Jesus said the road to hell was wide - He did not say it was gridlocked with all the traffic! Perhaps He just meant that there are people who look at the two ways to live, and think it is too hard to get to Heaven so they just take the wide road because it appears so much easier…

Jesus loves us, God loves us so much He allowed His SON to be tortured and die in our stead - I do not know if I could ever love anyone enough to sacrifice my son for their sake - but God DID.

God does not torture anyone in Hell, Hell is separation from the presence of God, and knowing what you rejected.

Pray, just go like a little child and ask Jesus to take away the fear.
 
God wills that all men be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4). However, we know that not all people will be saved. Thus, to use the idea that since God wills that all men to be saved, therefore, for all practical purposes, it must be very difficult to not be saved, or that if not 99%, then at least the majority of people will be saved does not follow. If only one solitary soul is not saved, then we know that God’s will that ALL men be saved must not mean what we would like it to mean. After all, if the statement is true with even one person suffering eternal damnation, then the statement remains true even if millions are eternally separated from God.

The three parables provided in Matt. 25 do not necessarily illustrate that those who are ultimately condemned have outrightly and in an absolute manner rejected the ‘bridegroom’ or the ‘master’, yet these same individuals who were unprepared were sent away to eternal punishment; that is, cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also, what are we to make of such statements in Scripture such as

‘Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter though it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’ (Matt. 7:13-14)

Now I don’t necessarily believe that Jesus was giving a statistical analysis of the breakdown of who will be ultimately saved. However, the statement is an extremely poor illustration if in actuality MANY are indeed saved and very FEW are ultimately condemned.

What about the following statement from Peter:

“For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner.’” (1 Pet 4:17-18)

After all, if almost everyone is saved, then it should not be a difficulty for a righteous man to be among them.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
I think you guys a confusing several issues here. First, it was stated in one of the previous postings that sins are finite. This is not true. Sins are an infinite offense before God – not because of our ability to do something of infinite worth, but because of the infinite majesty of whom it offends. Think about it: If I hit my brother in the face, this would be considered an offense with a particular gravity. However, if I did exactly the same thing to the President of the United States, you can bet that the secret service would have my face planted in the ground and their knee in my back… why? It’s not that President Bush has more inherent worth than my brother as a person, but because of the dignity of the office of the President. Similarly, my offense against God is infinite because of the infinite majesty of God.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
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Hermione:
Petra,

Thanks for responding 🙂

The thing that I don’t understand is that if God loves me, why doesn’t He come in person, or send an Angel, or something, ANYTHING, that would make me sure that He exists, that He loves me, that I can trust in Him.

I am having many doubts about whether God exists at all because He chooses not to intervene in our lives. I’m in so much trouble now, I don’t want to hurt Jesus, I would feel very bad if my actions were hurting Jesus.

But what if Jesus does not exist? What if there is no God? Should I give up my whole life to INSANITY because of a JUST IN CASE THIS IS TRUE I DON’T WANT TO BURN FOREVER?

If God exists, loves me, and knows all of this, why isn’t He doing anything? It’s really bothering me. What could the purpose of letting me suffer and doubt possibly be? It could end up making me lose my faith and going to Hell!

Why doesn’t God do anything for anyone who is in pain? So many completely INNOCENT people are suffering so gravely. In the Old Testament, God seemed to intervene A LOT to help the Jewish people, but this isn’t true anymore. It doesn’t seem that God ever intervenes to save a person, not even in extreme cases like torture and rape and murder.
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Blessings to you, Hermione. I’m getting the sense that there are some extremely specific things going on in your life and this issue is not merely philosophic and intellectual. Do you have people in your life that can help you? I’m going to instant message you…
 
Dear Hermione,

I hear you, dear person. I learned of God as a child.
I loved God.

Then came talk of hell, hellfire, “worthy” communions,
the thought is as serious as the deed…until I
couldn’t take it any more.

I now pray to the God Jesus called Father.
When I become fearful, I think of the words of
that Father in the Hebrew Scriptures:

“Even if your mother and father forget you,
I will never forget you,
See? I have written your name on the palm of My hand.”

I figure God has let me suffer all of this for His own
good reason. It has given me a sense of empathy
and compassion I would never have had without
that suffering. But it came at a very high cost.

Peace to you, Hermione,
reen12

The funny thing is, I’m a natural Jew at heart.
So why did He have me born an Irish Catholic?
Maybe because He knew I’d like to laugh and
I’ve always found the Irishmen I’ve known to
be incredibly funny. It has to do with a sense
of the absurd coupled with a sense of proportion,
I think. Maybe He likes to hear us laugh.
 
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mattkennel:
The reason why the youths were happy is that Jesus really does leave us peace. OCD/scrupulosity are psychological problems. But psychological problems are not restricted to Christianity, and having a psychological problem is no excuse to reject God altogether.
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Then where was my peace? I never had any when I was a Catholic.

I agree. I didn’t reject God because of my psychological problems. I first rejected Catholicism because it didn’t make sense. I then became a deist, but later rejected God because I realized that such a being also didn’t make sense.

However, I am worried about Hermione’s well-being, so I counsel her to abandon her beliefs that don’t make sense to her. Would you rather have her go insane and end up in a straight-jacket for the rest of her life or simply abandon her beliefs?
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mattkennel:
Personally, if I ever ceased to believe in God, I’d either greedily go into complete self-indulgence or commit suicide. Because without God life has NO PURPOSE. Without God, morals are pointless. After all, if no one is going to hold me accountable for my sins, why not go out and sin? After all, it’s easier than Christianity.
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Atheism is easier than Christianity, yet you are too weak to handle it. You want to kill yourself! Interesting.

You have a very immature understanding of atheism. It is not bleak, and atheists are not hedonists. Atheists make their own purpose in life. We do not need a “divine being” or an “afterlife” for purpose. Morals are not pointless, especially when it comes to hurting other people or your own body. You should not “go out and sin” for those reasons.
matkennel:
But, in reality, if hell doesn’t exist life becomes much more troubling. If sins are not either eliminated (through Christ) or punished (through hell) then the problem of evil gets really frustrating and hairly.
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If a lake of fire to punish people for eternity doesn’t exist, life becomes more troubling? :eek:

I disagree about the problem of evil. Without God in the equation, I think that the problem of evil becomes quite clear and makes sense. With God in the equation, it is just the opposite.
matkennel:
After all, if evil is not punished then there is something fundamentally unjust about the universe and life. This makes life a kind of cruel joke played by no one (since in our “happy” universe we no longer have a God). No, I think that the Christian model, wherein sin and evil are dealt with, is much preferable to having no hell.
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Well, you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but I have to disagree.

clarkal
 
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clarkal:
Then where was my peace? I never had any when I was a Catholic.

I agree. I didn’t reject God because of my psychological problems. I first rejected Catholicism because it didn’t make sense. I then became a deist, but later rejected God because I realized that such a being also didn’t make sense.

However, I am worried about Hermione’s well-being, so I counsel her to abandon her beliefs that don’t make sense to her. Would you rather have her go insane and end up in a straight-jacket for the rest of her life or simply abandon her beliefs?

Atheism is easier than Christianity, yet you are too weak to handle it. You want to kill yourself! Interesting.

You have a very immature understanding of atheism. It is not bleak, and atheists are not hedonists. Atheists make their own purpose in life. We do not need a “divine being” or an “afterlife” for purpose. Morals are not pointless, especially when it comes to hurting other people or your own body. You should not “go out and sin” for those reasons.

If a lake of fire to punish people for eternity doesn’t exist, life becomes more troubling? :eek:

I disagree about the problem of evil. Without God in the equation, I think that the problem of evil becomes quite clear and makes sense. With God in the equation, it is just the opposite.

Well, you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but I have to disagree.

clarkal
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Catholicism doesn’t make sense? What kind of arguement is that? That’s the best you can do? Seriously, though we as human beings desire justice. If a criminal goes unpunished in this life, would you not still want justice? Your arguement holds no merit. You say “without God in the equation, the problem of evil makes sense”, the reality is that there is evil. Our Catholic faith is not a faith of debate but of action. If you thing there is no God, why does science teach that in order for something to be created the thing that is created cannot be greater than its creator? Surely, we humans weren’t created by other humans, we would be less than human. That’s why God exists outside of the physical world we know.
 
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Hermione:
Petra,

Thanks for responding 🙂

The thing that I don’t understand is that if God loves me, why doesn’t He come in person, or send an Angel, or something, ANYTHING, that would make me sure that He exists, that He loves me, that I can trust in Him.

I am having many doubts about whether God exists at all because He chooses not to intervene in our lives. I’m in so much trouble now, I don’t want to hurt Jesus, I would feel very bad if my actions were hurting Jesus.
…
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The thing is God does reveal Himself to some and not to others. No one knows why some folks are visited by angels or visions or miracles. If you read up on the lives of the saints, you will see many examples of God intervening as He did in the old testament. There are histories of some spectacular miracle works some as recent as the last century.

IF you want to see some of the most recent events read up on the visionaries at Medjugore. You may even want to plan a pilgrimage there.

God’s hand is all around us. Sometimes, we just fail to look for Him. As Jesus says, blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe.

One small example, that some folks noticed involved Pope JP II’s visit to NYC :

**Subject: ltr to NY daily News

**Shining like the sun

Staten Island: It has been mentioned that most assuredly His Holiness will be made a saint by the Catholic Church. I offer the following: I am a retired New York City police lieutenant and during the Pope’s 1979 visit, I was guarding his motorcade as he traveled down Broadway. It was raining so heavily that even our raincoats could not keep us dry. However, as His Holiness went down Broadway, a slight banter could be heard over the radios. It said that wherever the Pope went the sun broke out shining, and after he passed the rain began again. I did not believe it until I looked up Broadway and saw the sun come out as His Holiness was passing by me. Several seconds later the rain began again, but you could see the sun over him as he traveled farther down Broadway. Many of my comrades spoke about that for weeks to come. He was a remarkable man, a great Christian and a lover of life and an inspiration to millions. I miss him but I am grateful to have experienced his presence.
 
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Hermione:
I
What if you were God, would you burn people for missing Mass?
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No, I would do exactly as God does, send His Son to take the punishment for all our transgressions and save us from the prospect of hell. for those who reject my ultimate gift I would at the last instant of their life offer them the chance to turn away from their rejection and to know and love God eternally. If they then continued to reject, having benefit of that knowledge, having given them free will I would let them go. God burns no one. People choose to burn eternally in the full, free knowledge that they have freely placed themselves out of God’s presence and love.
 
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Hermione:
Petra,

Thanks for responding 🙂

The thing that I don’t understand is that if God loves me, why doesn’t He come in person, or send an Angel, or something, ANYTHING, that would make me sure that He exists, that He loves me, that I can trust in Him.
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He already has. He gave you a guardian angel when you were conceived to accompany you throughout your life with all its joys and sufferings. Have you ever spoken to your guardian angel, asked his prayers for your and with you? He constantly beholds the face of God and praises Him eternally, have you ever asked him to represent you to God? He has given you all his array of saints, his cloud of witnesses, to attest that they have undergone the same struggles as you are enduring yet have come to know and love God. Have you asked them for their help?

God has send His only Son to you personally to redeem you from your sins, and from the effects of sin and evil in the world. Have you attempted to know, love, serve and obey him in recognition of this great gift? Why do you wallow in the pain when the joy is there for you to seize and own? Jesus came to you, he left his Church here for you to answer these questions, to absolve you of your sins, and to make Jesus present for you sacramentally. Have you availed yourself of this astounding awesome gift? Everything you are asking for has been granted to you, freely. Have you taken it?
 
Personally, I think faith makes a lot more sense that atheism.

In my life loss of faith or constant doubts had just the opposite effect and nearly drove me batty and nearly cost me my life. I think faith is a much more stabilizing influence.

IF you read some of the atheist’s remarks even on these forums, some of these folks suffer from periods of depression. Hopelessness is a key factor in depression, and what is more hopeless than living a life that has no meaning after death.

Doubts and uncertainty are a part of most peoples lives. Some are fortuanate enough to believe with very little doubt, Unless you have personally died and come back, how can anyone be absolutely certain. We can reinforce our faith with prayer, the sacraments, and gathering as much evidence as we can with learning from the saints and Church teachings.

But when it comes right down to it, everyone has to make the leap of faith to bridge the gap from doubt to true belief. I’ve found that the more I learn about miracles and others faith journeys, the smaller that gap becomes. IF you read up on the cloak of St. Juan Diego and the miracle of how it came about, the gap becomes but a mini-step.

When I toss in the life story of Padre Pio, and miracle workers like St. Anthony and many other, the gap is totally non- existant. It becomes more likely to me that most or all of these things are true rather than one or two peoples illusions.

When God works so many miracles through so many different people, the reality of God becomes unmistakable. The only really unbelievable thing left becomes, why there are still folks who doubt His existance. After a while it really becomes a no-brainer.

wc
 
HELL IS FOR ALL THAT REJECT GODS MERCY.That isn,t you Hermi,correct? Focus on the things that are from above. 😉 God Bless
 
I think wcknight’s words are correct and very inspiring. I’m fascinated by things like lives of the saints and I’m going to start reading up on things like that.

-b
 
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bones_IV:
Catholicism doesn’t make sense? What kind of arguement is that? That’s the best you can do?
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No.

This isn’t the place to go into my reasons for rejecting Catholicism, so instead of long, drawn-out arguments, I decided to do the more appropriate, which was to summarize my reasons in the statement “it doesn’t make sense.”
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bones_IV:
Seriously, though we as human beings desire justice. If a criminal goes unpunished in this life, would you not still want justice? Your arguement holds no merit.
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I do not see how you can make the logical leap from human beings “wanting justice” for unpunished deeds to “there must exist a lake of fire in a world which we cannot see or test or verify in which criminals will suffer eternally.”

I personally can’t leap that far.

What is interesting is that monkies also desire justice when they are wronged. What happens when they do not get justice? Does God punish the bad monkies in an eternal hellfire in this invisible spiritual world?
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bones_IV:
You say “without God in the equation, the problem of evil makes sense”, the reality is that there is evil.
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We define evil differently, but if you are saying that people who behave in destructive ways toward themselves, other people, and society are evil, then I agree that there is evil in the world. However, I still stand by my statement regarding the problem of evil, as I’m not sure how your saying that “the reality is that there is evil” relates or even rebuts it, if that was your intention
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bones_IV:
Our Catholic faith is not a faith of debate but of action. If you thing there is no God, why does science teach that in order for something to be created the thing that is created cannot be greater than its creator? Surely, we humans weren’t created by other humans, we would be less than human. That’s why God exists outside of the physical world we know.
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Does science teach that exactly? I’m unsure of that. Maybe if you provided a source. I doubt whether it is talking about “organisms”, as that statement would imply a creator god, which science would not do.

This brings to mind the development of artificial intelligence. Surely, at least in the future (if we last as a race), it will surpass that of human intelligence. Robots will be common place. Will they be “greater”? It depends upon how you define it. Certainly, some machines are “greater”, in a sense, than humans at performing certain tasks. I think we need a definition here.

clarkal
 
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Hermione:
I agree that it’s not necessarily trivial to deliberately miss Mass, but is it really bad enough to merit ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL?

I don’t think so. It just doesn’t seem loving to let a human being (who otherwise could be a good human being who helps the poor, loves his family etc.) TO BURN FOREVER for having a day of selfishness and wanting to watch a movie instead of driving to Church and spending an hour there.

What if you were God, would you burn people for missing Mass?
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Here is the way I look at it. IF we all know that using birth control, missing mass on Holy Days of Obligation, sex before marriage are sins, and we still sin then we are choosing hell. Because we know it isnt what the Church teaches, and we still turn away from it. Now there is confession, and God forgives us no matter how great the sin as long as we are truely sorry. I still fall to sin at times, but I also realize that God is not the bad guy because Hell exists, because he doesnt want to see anyone go there we are the ones that choose that for ourselves for we do have free will.

God Bless, Kerri
 
Catholicism is the only religion that makes sense. We believe the Bible provides us with a chance for purification after we leave this life - a chance to avoid Hell. Why would I want to leave a faith that interprets the Bible correctly and offers salvation to all?
 
Dear CatholicHoser

I have only just read this thread today but when I read your first post, I realised your words could have been my own. I have thought and felt the same things for a considerable time now. I also have some sympathy with Clarkal, when he says he does not feel the peace of the young guys he saw on TV and doesn’t know why. I feel the same at times and wonder what is wrong with me, that most of my life, although I believe and go to Mass weekly, is taken up with an inward horror of past or current sins.

And I empathise with Hermione who feels bad at ‘feeling bad’ when other people on the other side of the world are ‘suffering more’.

I still struggle with feelings of peacelessness and joylessness, and struggling with sins that I think will cast me into hell, and I wonder if I really understand the true meaning of these words - peace, joy - as they are spoken by Our Lord and the apostles.

I think that they do not mean as the modern wold interprets them. I think sometimes even the suffering that you, Clarkal, Hermione and others, and I, undergo, even though it is a different type from the poor ones who suffer in China or the Sudan, still somehow brings us closer to Our Lord. We still suffer. Somehow it is a merit to us, I believe, if we offer it up as a sacrifice. I do try to do this now, and try to think more of the good things I have done, and the small ways in which I have evangelised.

Behind me the picture of the Divine Mercy looks down on me. I look at this picture regularly and pray before it. It does help, I have found.

I pray for peace for all of us who are suffering like this, and I pray that Clarkal may find the way back.
love
Thea
 
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clarkal:
Then where was my peace? I never had any when I was a Catholic.

I agree. I didn’t reject God because of my psychological problems. I first rejected Catholicism because it didn’t make sense. I then became a deist, but later rejected God because I realized that such a being also didn’t make sense.

However, I am worried about Hermione’s well-being, so I counsel her to abandon her beliefs that don’t make sense to her. Would you rather have her go insane and end up in a straight-jacket for the rest of her life or simply abandon her beliefs?

Atheism is easier than Christianity, yet you are too weak to handle it. You want to kill yourself! Interesting.

You have a very immature understanding of atheism. It is not bleak, and atheists are not hedonists. Atheists make their own purpose in life. We do not need a “divine being” or an “afterlife” for purpose. Morals are not pointless, especially when it comes to hurting other people or your own body. You should not “go out and sin” for those reasons.

If a lake of fire to punish people for eternity doesn’t exist, life becomes more troubling? :eek:

I disagree about the problem of evil. Without God in the equation, I think that the problem of evil becomes quite clear and makes sense. With God in the equation, it is just the opposite.

Well, you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but I have to disagree.

clarkal
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There is no easy way out of life. Atheism is no answer for life, death, Hell or depression. To me God brought back meaning into my life. Faith gives me hope for a life better than the one here in the valley of tears. Faith inspires optimism, joy and most importantly love.

To live without faith is to live without hope. When one loses their sanity, they lose their bearing. When one loses faith they have lost everything.

For one to fight off depression, one needs professional counseling, but to give up one’s faith is the worst thing you can do. God is the source of all hope and love. To give up God is like cutting your own throat to cure a hang nail.

wc
 
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wcknight:
There is no easy way out of life. Atheism is no answer for life, death, Hell or depression. To me God brought back meaning into my life. Faith gives me hope for a life better than the one here in the valley of tears. Faith inspires optimism, joy and most importantly love.

To live without faith is to live without hope. When one loses their sanity, they lose their bearing. When one loses faith they have lost everything.

For one to fight off depression, one needs professional counseling, but to give up one’s faith is the worst thing you can do. God is the source of all hope and love. To give up God is like cutting your own throat to cure a hang nail.

wc
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Catholicism in America appears to be heading for an odd mixture of Protestant fundamentalism warmed up with a heavy dose of phychobabble,rather than fire and brimstone you can get a 12 step program to heaven.If that fails call your lawyer.

His Majesty manifests Himself in all ages and in all times for there is nowhere God is not,I am sure that other people in history have believed that their dire positions through wars or disease marked so final descent to better times but what is happening here is a descent to mediocrity and that has no ending.

I would prefer hell in order to know what I was missing in heaven than mediocrity which knows neither.What you are doing to my Catholic tradition for your effiminate phychobabble existence which drugs what it cannot face even though by definition, Christian faith insists that difficult phases come and go can never constitute any form of belief. Why,when most here have more luxury than most are finding yourselves victims,are you so spoilt that you imagine God owes you Spiritual and material happiness.

There are no more heroes,there are only those who work for pay who you call professional and I call indoctrinated.Doing something only faith and Christ can do may be a lonely road at time but the single and gentle idea of a Catholic community by its very presence accomplishes more than any programmed path a man devises.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he works for pay and cares nothing for the sheep. "

You bought into the empirical myths whether it is the structure and motion of planets and stars or the structure of the mind,while the former is easily dealt with the latter is an awful attempt by the blind to lead those who are Spiritually adrift and who need only simple things to ease their pain,often this is Sunday mass or confession.
 
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