Are most people going to Hell?

[JReducation]

The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved
by St. Leonard of Port Maurice

Saint Leonard of Port Maurice was a most holy Franciscan friar who lived at the monastery of Saint Bonaventure in Rome. He was one of the greatest missioners in the history of the Church. He used to preach to thousands in the open square of every city and town where the churches could not hold his listeners. So brilliant and holy was his eloquence that once when he gave a two weeks’ mission in Rome, the Pope and College of Cardinals came to hear him. The Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus were his crusades. He was in no small way responsible for the definition of the Immaculate Conception made a little more than a hundred years after his death. He also gave us the Divine Praises, which are said at the end of Benediction. But Saint Leonard’s most famous work was his devotion to the Stations of the Cross. He died a most holy death in his seventy-fifth year, after twenty-four years of uninterrupted preaching.

One of Saint Leonard of Port Maurice’s most famous sermons was “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved.” It was the one he relied on for the conversion of great sinners. This sermon, like his other writings, was submitted to canonical examination during the process of canonization. In it he reviews the various states of life of Christians and concludes with the little number of those who are saved, in relation to the totality of men.

The reader who meditates on this remarkable text will grasp the soundness of its argumentation, which has earned it the approbation of the Church. Here is the great missionary’s vibrant and moving sermon.

I know this sermon very well. It does not mean that most people go to hell. What Leonard is saying is that most of those who do not convert away from sin, regardless of their place in the world or the Church will not get to heaven, because they have done nothing to work with their salvation.

There is nothing knew here.

St. Leonard is taking off on a theme from his father and founder, St. Francis and on the importance of conversion from sin. He uses scripture, sacred tradition and dogma to drive this point home to those who are in need of a conversion of manners, which is what it was called by St. Francis and St. Benedict.

If you read the sermon carefully, Leonard tells those who are vituous to leave the room, because this sermon is not for them…

If the virtuous leave the room and those in sin remain, you do the math.

JR

 

[expectthebest]

Well, I’ve posted four in a row, I’d might as well go for another!

What do you all think about this:

I was once in a discussion with a person about the comprehension of God. The discussion context was how one answers that we just can’t understand the mind of God. He answered the question this way:

Man is a finite being. God is an infinite being to even a greater level than infinity since He created infinit to being with. Logically, the finite (man) **can not ** comprehend the infinite (God).

This always seemed to make a lot of sense to me. Now, if one takes this line of thinking and places it in the context of this discussion, one could come to the conclusion that it is impossible for man as a finite being to fully comprehend the infinite nature of Heaven or hell just as it is impossible for us to fully comprehend all the mystical Truths of the Faith (fully God and man, the Trinity, the uncaused first cause, etc.).

Man is absolutely incapable of understanding the mind of God. Devine revelation might help us understand on a very minor level but the ability for man to understand what God understands is the difference between the intellect of a genious and that of an insect; a stupid insect for that matter! Even if God came down to earth and explained all the secrets of the universe, we would still not be able to comprehend what he was telling us. Our minds simply are not capable.

So, just as God knows we cannot gain Heaven by ourselves because of our very nature as a finite being, he must know that we can’t really comprehend hell by the same reason. If we can’t fully comprehend a punishment, how can we give full consent to an action which might deliver that punishment? For example, if I told my 6 month old child that if he did not go to sleep, he would have to write “I will always obey what my parents tell me” 500 times, it would not make any difference because the kid does not have the capability to fully comprehend the punishment for his action.

This line of thinking often makes me wonder if there really isn’t more to judgement after death then what the Church has revealed. Could it be that during judgment, God actually allows us to have a more infinite knowlege of eternity once we are free of our human bodies which allows us to truely decide with at least something approaching full comprehension of what lies ahead? Perhaps the “hell” being talked about is really Purgatory. Not that there isn’t an enternal hell, but as differenciated as a place saved for only the most wretched evil souls in the sense that most would think there is a very big difference between someone who is guilty of using artificial birth control and one who murders a million people. Surely both can’t deserve the same punishement.

Ok, enough for now.

 

[JReducation]

This, in a nutshell is the hear of St. Leonard’s sermon. He’s not playing a simple numbers game. He’s actually speaking about God’s mercy toward sinners and the hard heart of sinners. He writes it in a beautiful and persuasive way. But his intention is not to start counting who goes to heaven or hell. His inention is to persuade sinners to take advantage of God’s grace.

Brothers, you must know that the most ancient belief is the Law of God, and that we all bear it written in our hearts; that it can be learned without any teacher, and that it suffices to have the light of reason in order to know all the precepts of that Law. That is why even the barbarians hid when they committed sin, because they knew they were doing wrong; and they are damned for not having observed the natural law written in their heart: for had they observed it, God would have made a miracle rather than let them be damned; He would have sent them someone to teach them and would have given them other aids, of which they made themselves unworthy by not living in conformity with the inspirations of their own conscience, which never failed to warn them of the good they should do and the evil they should avoid. So it is their conscience that accused them at the Tribunal of God, and it tells them constantly in hell, “Thy damnation comes from thee.” They do not know what to answer and are obliged to confess that they are deserving of their fate. Now if these infidels have no excuse, will there be any for a Catholic who had so many sacraments, so many sermons, so many aids at his disposal? How will he dare to say, “If God was going to damn me, then why did He create me?” How will he dare to speak in this manner, when God gives him so many aids to be saved? So let us finish confounding him.

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

It is a sermon worth reading, but don’t get caught on the numbers game. Focus on the virtues that St. Leonard is spaking about which are necessary for salvation.

He was a great mystic and had tremendous insight into the human soul.

JR

 

[expectthebest]

I posted a thread called The Problem of Hell, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=243620 and it naturally transitioned into a discussion about predestination, and someone posted this link from the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Catholic dogma of predestination. newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm Fascinating and dense reading. Here’s a snippet:

This seems to me a totally inadequate answer by the Church. I mean, come on. The Church can dogmatize the sinlessness of Mary but it can’t come to a conclusion of what Jesus meant by many would follow the road of destruction while few would follow the narrow road to salvation? This just drives me nuts about the Church!

 

[clmowry]

This seems to me a totally inadequate answer by the Church. I mean, come on. The Church can dogmatize the sinlessness of Mary but it can’t come to a conclusion of what Jesus meant by many would follow the road of destruction while few would follow the narrow road to salvation? This just drives me nuts about the Church!

I think the Saint and the Church take the same approach.

Whether it is 14 billion or just one person who is going to go to hell, you do not want to be that one.

So we should act accordingly.

Chuck

 

[JReducation]

This seems to me a totally inadequate answer by the Church. I mean, come on. The Church can dogmatize the sinlessness of Mary but it can’t come to a conclusion of what Jesus meant by many would follow the road of destruction while few would follow the narrow road to salvation? This just drives me nuts about the Church!

The sinlessness of Mary is based on scripture, tradition and reason.

The above referenced citation requires insight into the person’s soul. We’re not speaking of one person, as was the case with Mary and the canonized saints. We’re speaking here about humanity. The Church cannot make a blanket statement about all of humanity.

It can make blanket statements about sin, heaven, hell, salvation, but not every individual’s circumstance. That would be irresponsible and an unreasonable expectation.

JR

 

[expectthebest]

I know this sermon very well. It does not mean that most people go to hell. What Leonard is saying is that most of those who do not convert away from sin, regardless of their place in the world or the Church will not get to heaven, because they have done nothing to work with their salvation.

There is nothing knew here.

St. Leonard is taking off on a theme from his father and founder, St. Francis and on the importance of conversion from sin. He uses scripture, sacred tradition and dogma to drive this point home to those who are in need of a conversion of manners, which is what it was called by St. Francis and St. Benedict.

If you read the sermon carefully, Leonard tells those who are vituous to leave the room, because this sermon is not for them…

If the virtuous leave the room and those in sin remain, you do the math.

JR

Please explain what you mean by “If the virtuous leave the room and those in sin remain, you do the math”. We don’t know how many left the room, do we?

Also, Jesus railed against those who perceived themselve as virtuous. Why then would this Saint ask those who presume themselves to be virtuous to leave because they are not in need of these words?

 

[expectthebest]

The sinlessness of Mary is based on scripture, tradition and reason.

The above referenced citation requires insight into the person’s soul. We’re not speaking of one person, as was the case with Mary and the canonized saints. We’re speaking here about humanity. The Church cannot make a blanket statement about all of humanity.

It can make blanket statements about sin, heaven, hell, salvation, but not every individual’s circumstance. That would be irresponsible and an unreasonable expectation.

JR

It could just as easily be argued that the Church should have direction on this because of Scripture, Tradition and reason. There is not lack of these discussion throughout history and there certainly is Scripture.

 

[expectthebest]

I think the Saint and the Church take the same approach.

Whether it is 14 billion or just one person who is going to go to hell, you do not want to be that one.

So we should act accordingly.

Chuck

The point is if we are more than likely to go to hell no matter how hard we try, we should really be living in a state of incredible fear for our future!

 

[JReducation]

Please explain what you mean by “If the virtuous leave the room and those in sin remain, you do the math”. We don’t know how many left the room, do we?

Also, Jesus railed against those who perceived themselve as virtuous. Why then would this Saint ask those who presume themselves to be virtuous to leave because they are not in need of these words?

I would suggest that you go to the sermon and read his introduction. Because he actually explains himself. I can’t do him justice by paraphrasing him and the introduction is very long.

It is beautifully written, the entire thing I mean. Keep in mind while you read it, this is a theologian and a mystic. He’s coming at this topic from many angles at the same time. He even says in his sermon that those who do not understand theology will have a difficult time understanding what he’s talking about.

This is why he takes the time to go through scripture, patristics, doctors of the church, philosophy, saints, and metaphors, to help those who are not theologically trained understand him.

You have to read the entire thing. It is a beautiful summary of what Christian spirituality should be. Those who live the spiritual life will recognize what applies to them and what does not.

I will say this, there is a little in there for each of us.

JR

 

[JReducation]

It could just as easily be argued that the Church should have direction on this because of Scripture, Tradition and reason. There is not lack of these discussion throughout history and there certainly is Scripture.

You’re right that we do have scripture, tradition and reason, but the Church is not satisfied with any of the conclusions that have been presented.

The Church in her wisdom, will never make an authoritative statement on anything if she is not comfortable with the statement.

This does not mean that the Church has given up on this topic. It means that she is still studying it. She’s studying many things that are said in scripture.

We can trust that since she has been givent he fullness of truth, she will eventually arrive at a clear explanation. Not every explanation concerning scriptural matters been found immediately or easily. They have often required a great deal of study and discussion.

JR

 

[expectthebest]

I would suggest that you go to the sermon and read his introduction. Because he actually explains himself. I can’t do him justice by paraphrasing him and the introduction is very long.

It is beautifully written, the entire thing I mean. Keep in mind while you read it, this is a theologian and a mystic. He’s coming at this topic from many angles at the same time. He even says in his sermon that those who do not understand theology will have a difficult time understanding what he’s talking about.

This is why he takes the time to go through scripture, patristics, doctors of the church, philosophy, saints, and metaphors, to help those who are not theologically trained understand him.

You have to read the entire thing. It is a beautiful summary of what Christian spirituality should be. Those who live the spiritual life will recognize what applies to them and what does not.

I will say this, there is a little in there for each of us.

JR

I will take your advice and read the whole thing even at the risk of becoming more afraid!

 

[clmowry]

The point is if we are more than likely to go to hell no matter how hard we try, we should really be living in a state of incredible fear for our future!

I think the point is that if there is “any chance” you are going to hell (which there is for everyone single one of us) then we should be doing what Christ and His Church say we should be doing to avoid that fate.

Philippians 2:12

“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Chuck

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The point is if we are more than likely to go to hell no matter how hard we try, we should really be living in a state of incredible fear for our future!

Jesus said in the scripture, “take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

We need to remember that Jesus’ yoke is easy and his burden light. It’s not like he gives us something impossible or severe.

Of course, Jesus did also say that the road to heaven is narrow and few find it, but the road to hell is broad and many find it. That passage says that most people will go to hell. However, this is of their own choice, their own evil. It’s not that God will reject people no matter how hard they try. That is certainly an inaccurate portrayal of his character. He offers us all of his love, and bathing in the delight of that love is pure joy. He wants all the best for us, offers all the best for us, and is very kind and merciful toward us in our errors and sins along the way. The problem is that most people won’t accept Christ’s “easy” and “light” yoke. They won’t accept the gift that would provide them with “rest” (in this life as well as the hereafter) and joy.

God offers us a free gift of salvation and an intimate love relationship with their Creator, and when we accept that gift, he sanctifies us with deep kindness, gentleness and mercy. When we reject that gift consistently in spite of all God’s mercy toward us and kind ways of seeking to bring us back to himself, we damn ourselves, for separation from God is the essence of damnation and it is always self-chosen, never inflicted.

We need to just trust in God, rely on him and his teachings, pray for more intimacy with him and seek his face. And rejoice as he answers our prayers bit by bit over time, if we persist. And we’ll go to heaven . But woe to those who refuse to seek him and who consistently shut out his voice. Those who willfully damn themselves through intentional separation from God on their part will ultimately be allowed to merge with the completeness of what they desire: Hell.

Let us be those who seek the light and receive it. Most people will go to Hell, but only because they choose it for themselves and purposefully spurn the continually outstretched and offered love and mercy of their Creator. We who seek God have NOTHING to fear, for we are encased in God’s love and mercy. Only if we willfully separate ourselves from God and refuse to repent for our sins do we have something to fear: Ourselves.

But praise be to God, we can rely on his strength which is vast, to guide us safely to our heavenly home!

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I think the point is that if there is “any chance” you are going to hell (which there is for everyone single one of us) then we should be doing what Christ and His Church say we should be doing to avoid that fate.

Philippians 2:12

“So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Chuck

“Fear and trembling” exists in a couple different senses. One is that God is just so awe-striking that the powerful manifestation of his presence can naturally create fear. When he appeared to his disciples, he had to say, “Do not be afraid,” and his angels also had to say this often when they appeared before people.

The second sense I know about in which we fear God is that we fear his wrath against sin and therefore would not sin. He is so powerful that we would be fools to willfully sin and break our communion with him. However, we have Confession and God’s overwhelming mercy to rely on. If we think of this as a license for sin, we are fools and our repentance insincere, but if we think of it as an invincible defense against sin for those who seek God truly, Satan cannot harm us.

 

[JReducation]

Jesus said in the scripture, “take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

We need to remember that Jesus’ yoke is easy and his burden light. It’s not like he gives us something impossible or severe.

Of course, Jesus did also say that the road to heaven is narrow and few find it, but the road to hell is broad and many find it. That passage says that most people will go to hell. However, this is of their own choice, their own evil. It’s not that God will reject people no matter how hard they try. That is certainly an inaccurate portrayal of his character. He offers us all of his love, and bathing in the delight of that love is pure joy. He wants all the best for us, offers all the best for us, and is very kind and merciful toward us in our errors and sins along the way. The problem is that most people won’t accept Christ’s “easy” and “light” yoke. They won’t accept the gift that would provide them with “rest” (in this life as well as the hereafter) and joy.

God offers us a free gift of salvation and an intimate love relationship with their Creator, and when we accept that gift, he sanctifies us with deep kindness, gentleness and mercy. When we reject that gift consistently in spite of all God’s mercy toward us and kind ways of seeking to bring us back to himself, we damn ourselves, for separation from God is the essence of damnation and it is always self-chosen, never inflicted.

We need to just trust in God, rely on him and his teachings, pray for more intimacy with him and seek his face. And rejoice as he answers our prayers bit by bit over time, if we persist. And we’ll go to heaven . But woe to those who refuse to seek him and who consistently shut out his voice. Those who willfully damn themselves through intentional separation from God on their part will ultimately be allowed to merge with the completeness of what they desire: Hell.

Let us be those who seek the light and receive it. Most people will go to Hell, but only because they choose it for themselves and purposefully spurn the continually outstretched and offered love and mercy of their Creator. We who seek God have NOTHING to fear, for we are encased in God’s love and mercy. Only if we willfully separate ourselves from God and refuse to repent for our sins do we have something to fear: Ourselves.

But praise be to God, we can rely on his strength which is vast, to guide us safely to our heavenly home!

You’re describing what

St. Francis called embracing the cross

St. Catherine of Siena called the spiritual marriage

St. Teresa called the mystical union

St. John of the Cross called the Ascent to Mt. Carmel

and so forth.

JR

 

[Julianna]

As I understand it, most people are going to Hell. Jesus Himself says so in the Bible when he says that the road to hell is wide, and the gate to Heaven is narrow and few enter it or something like that.

Furthermore, the Catechism says that no one is deemed ignorant of the moral law written in our conscience (or something similar), so people who deliberately and with full knowledge commit adultery, murder, theft etc. are in mortal sin even if they never heard of Catholicism. Right?

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml is a sermon by a saint, and here are some quotes:

The answer is. “I don’t know and you don’t know either…nor does any human being walking this earth.”

So is it true that most people are going to Hell?

Thanks!

 

[JReducation]

If you really want to understand St. Leonard’s sermon, I would suggest that you study Franciscan theology or as a Friar Minor how St. Leonard arrived at these conclusions and how much of these conclusions are still held by their spirituality.

Even though he says many truths, we must also remember that he did not have the knowledge of human behaviour, human development, psychology and Christian anthropology that his confreres have today. These discipllines were not available to him.

Being a very holy man and a very intelligent man, he would have looked at the issue of salvation through many lenses, if he had had as many as we have today. Neither the Church nor St. Francis ever encouraged anyone not to consider all the disciplines that help us understand human behaviours and choices.

This is not to say that Heaven is available without any work. You do have to work for it. The point here is that our understanding of why people do some things has expanded. This is good, because it’s a sign of God’s mercy operating among us.

Again, Heaven isn’t free. There is much more than what our anscestors understood.

JR

 

[Lief_Erikson]

You’re describing what

St. Francis called embracing the cross

St. Catherine of Siena called the spiritual marriage

St. Teresa called the mystical union

St. John of the Cross called the Ascent to Mt. Carmel

and so forth.

JR

Wow . That’s exciting- I didn’t know that.

 

[JReducation]

Wow . That’s exciting- I didn’t know that.

If what you posted above is your spirituality, you’re in good company.

JR