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paul_c
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Beyond the tortured reading of scripture, isn’t it a simple fact that if don’t value the eucharist enough to devote one hour a week to it, that your love for God can’t be very strong?
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Abbadon
Guest
Ahhh the goal of infinite reward. It’s rather like trying to win the lottery isn’t it?
No thanks I’ll pass. I’m happy with living this life the best way I can.
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CentralFLJames
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That’s not inconsistent with Christianity since its formed on loving God and neighbor as best you can (with your whole heart, mind and soul). Now you just need to make sure you apply “best practises” toward God rather than serving self.
Jame
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Mickey
Guest
It is not a game of chance. The sacraments are channels of grace that God has given to us for our benefit. God is not bound by the sacraments.
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paul_c
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Mickey,
you are right. It is not a game of Chance. When we are baptized into the faith, we are washed clean. From then on, we need to work to maintain that cleanliness. If we fall from this through sin, we need to repent, and be recleaned sacramentally through the sacrament of reconciliation. At which point the process starts anew, with us striving to maintain our cleanliness and if we fall, to be “recleaned” again.
The reason that many may go to Hell is their failure to recognize this or if they do recognize it, their failure to follow through with their responsibility.
you are right. It is not a game of Chance. When we are baptized into the faith, we are washed clean. From then on, we need to work to maintain that cleanliness. If we fall from this through sin, we need to repent, and be recleaned sacramentally through the sacrament of reconciliation. At which point the process starts anew, with us striving to maintain our cleanliness and if we fall, to be “recleaned” again.
The reason that many may go to Hell is their failure to recognize this or if they do recognize it, their failure to follow through with their responsibility.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. There is a beautiful Orthodox teaching from the holy fathers that tells us tears of repentance is like another baptism.
Let us pray to God for His infinite mercy, that the multitudes will have true metanoia.
The path is narrow. Many are called but few are chosen.
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steve_b
Guest
That interpretation came from a lecture on the book of Hebrews by Dr Scott Hahn, chair of the department of theology, Franciscan University. Might I add one of the few Catholic universities in the U.S. that signed JPII request to be subject to and follow the teaching magisterium of the Church.
Scott does NOT torture scripture.
Very true.
But the question was, how does the passage quoted from Hebrews warn of NOT missing mass, and the consequences.
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expectthebest
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I guess I’m still missing something. The passage says that if we keep on sinning we will be damned if there is not repentence. I don’t think anyone would argue with that. But the passage does not say that missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin. It says that it’s a good thing, but it doesn’t say it’s a sin. Hmmm…trying to understand.
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expectthebest
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Yes and no. I’ve heard this many times and it doesn’t make sense to me either. I would say that if one really loves God, he wouldn’t sin at all. Not just missing a Mass once in a while. Many give much more than one hour to God per week but if they miss that hour on Sunday, they are in big trouble. Since it is a mortal sin to miss Mass, I would say that many, including myself much of the time, go to Mass out of love for ourselves and our infinite souls rather then the love of God. If the teaching on missing Mass was not so strict, especially to those of us who are scruplulous, we might of the oportuntity to say "I’m going to Mass today becasue I love God and want to spend time with him. Not because I’ll lose my immortal soul if I don’t.
Again, not being argumentative here. I’m trying to learn and I’m sure there will be posts to help show me another view.
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Mickey
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I think the problem arises when the Latin Church began proclaiming the “Sunday obligation”. In the East, we look at the weekly Liturgy as a privilege, not an obligation.
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paul_c
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Here is what the catechism says:
That said, I agree with you that mass should be a pleasure, not an obligation. Afterall, we get to recieve Christ within us. For me, and perhaps for many others, mass started out as an obligation but in fact became not only a pleasure but an overwhelming desire. I honestly feel compelled (in a good way) to attend mass daily. However, if it hadn’t been for the obligation part, I might never have reached the state I’m in now. Some people, like me, need to be lead…
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steve_b
Guest
First the passage says
- Don’t fail to meet as is the habit of some
I gave the scripture verses that described what day to meet, and what they did when they met…true? any disagreements with that so far?
Is there a consequence associated with the habit of failing to meet? Yes
- If you deliberately keep on sinning
What’s the context of sinning? It’s in the context of the habit that some have gotten into of not meeting on Sunday, and it is qualified with deliberate on the part of the individual. It’s not okay to be in this habit, and they are being warned to correct this habit, because it is a sin and it is to stop… True? any disagreements with this so far?
So, Is this a serious sin or a minor sin? What does the writer say? (emphasis mine)
- If we deliberately keep on sinning (missing mass) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, (after we’ve been warned NOT to deliberately miss mass) no sacrifice for sins is left(what is the sacrifice for sin? ), 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God
IOW, we now have knowledge that missing the sacrifice of the mass is a sin. That’s a truth we now possess from scripture. how serious a sin is it to deliberately go against this law we’ve been given? read it yourself. Judgement and a raging fire… Does that sound like a minor or serious sin?
- Scripture calls it serious
- Canon law calls it serious canons 1246-1248 vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
- the Catechism (CCC) call it serious #'s 2040- 2042, 2180, 2181 scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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expectthebest
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Maybe I’m just not very smart but I don’t see that missing Mass is necessrily directly related to sinning in this passage. The passage is incuraging us to go to Mass regularly but it doesn’t say that missing it is a sin. It goes on to say that sin is bad but it does not call missing Mass a sin.
This looks like encouragement. It’s not calling missing it a sin and certainly not a mortal sin. It’s like encouraging one to do good. Just becasue someone does not to good and does something wrong does not necessarily classify it as a mortal sin.
In order for this to be directly tied with missing Mass, it would first have to be decared to be a sin, which it is not. It is incouraged but not declared a sin. The statement though, in general, is true. I just don’t see it relating to something that has not been specifically declared a grave sin like the rest of the grave sins specifically called out in Scripture.
Also true. This would pertain to what has been specifically identified as sin. All sin can lead us to hell.
I know what the Church teaches and am trying to accept it. But, in the context of this passage, I think one must take a bit of a leap to necessarily tie the two together.
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expectthebest
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Is it not a damnable offense to miss Mass in the Eastern Church?I think the problem arises when the Latin Church began proclaiming the “Sunday obligation”. In the East, we look at the weekly Liturgy as a privilege, not an obligation.
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paul_c
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The catechism calls missing mass a “grave sin”
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Shlomey
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I find this interesting though:
God is omniscient and He certainly knows about everyone’s final fate.
If most people are going to hell - as te path is narrow and only few will go by it - then God did decide to go ahead with creation knowing that the majority of his beloved creation would end up in hell, in eternal torment.
That was something I had BIG issues with.
God is omniscient and He certainly knows about everyone’s final fate.
If most people are going to hell - as te path is narrow and only few will go by it - then God did decide to go ahead with creation knowing that the majority of his beloved creation would end up in hell, in eternal torment.
That was something I had BIG issues with.
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expectthebest
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I never questioned what the Catechism says. I’m trying to understand why this Scripture is used as the reason for the teaching.
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steve_b
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I don’t see that missing Mass is necessrily directly related to sinning in this passage.
Agreed, It is encouragement,
expect:
I think it’s already understood to be a sin. What is v 26 referring back to? It’s referring back to “don’t fail to meet as is the habit of some” … correct? That’s the context. The writer of Hebrews seems to take for granted that the deliberate failure to meet as is the habit of some, is already known to be a sin that’s why it immediately says without interruption or addition, “if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth”. Is this sin in general or is it speaking of a particular sin? One isn’t condemned for venial sin, only mortal sin. So again what is the context of v 26? It refers back to failing to meet on the Lord’s day. for what purpose? To celebrate the Eucharist. THAT’S the sin spoken of.
Do I hear a yes?
expect:
I would suggest, The text has already assumed the listener knows it is a sin already. That’s why the writer of Hebrews says if we continue to deliberately sin after we’ve received the knowledge of this truth. This is in past tense. They’ve already received this knowledge and are being warned to correct the bad habit that some are in i.e. (some are deliberately missing mass and the Eucharist on Sunday)
expect:
NOT sin in general. Venial sin won’t land you in hell. The context of the subject being discussed “don’t fail to meet as is the habit of some”.
There is sin that is mortal but not all sin is mortal. [1 Jn 16:16…] true? Therefore, the sin spoken of here “deliberately failing to meet as is the habit of some” is not venial but a biggie
expect:
The Church is following scripture in putting such importance to the mass. That’s the only purpose of making the connection to mortal sin and where missing mass and scripture can be connected
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expectthebest
Guest
Good explanations. You have given me food for thought.
We still must make the assumption that the writer is in fact referring to missing Mass as a sin in order to take this interpretation.
We must also make the assumption that the writer, by using the word habit, is referring to missing Mass even once. He could have just as easily been referring to a habit of missing Mass often. Maybe he is not referring to an occasional miss but the habit of missing often.
When I said that all sin will lead to hell, I meant that submercing oneself in venial sin will eventually lead us to mortal sin which will lead us to hell. The key word is lead.
Basically, the passage seems vague enough that we can’t really know for sure what the writer meant.
We still must make the assumption that the writer is in fact referring to missing Mass as a sin in order to take this interpretation.
We must also make the assumption that the writer, by using the word habit, is referring to missing Mass even once. He could have just as easily been referring to a habit of missing Mass often. Maybe he is not referring to an occasional miss but the habit of missing often.
When I said that all sin will lead to hell, I meant that submercing oneself in venial sin will eventually lead us to mortal sin which will lead us to hell. The key word is lead.
Basically, the passage seems vague enough that we can’t really know for sure what the writer meant.
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CentralFLJames
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So, was it the obligation of Sunday worship that “the East” objected to or was it just the authority of Rome that has always been in place since St. Peter’s time that “the East” objected to?I think the problem arises when the Latin Church began proclaiming the “Sunday obligation”. In the East, we look at the weekly Liturgy as a privilege, not an obligation.
James
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