Are most people going to hell?

[Brooklyn]

This is from the Traditional Catholicism forum under the heading “No Mortal Sin?” The moderator commented that we are getting off topic, so I am posting a reply to one of the comments here.

The comment from Mijoy2 was as follows:

"First, a qualifier. I am well aware the church teaches that nobody but God determines who goes to heaven and who does not. But, the church does say what is and what is not mortal sin (ambiguously) along with stating that if a person were to die in mortal sin he/she goes immediately to hell.

1035 … Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, …

What is and what is not a mortal sin in the Catholic church is clearly ambiguous at best.

As I see it there is one of two basic catagories both of which is distressing and troublesome.

1. One needs to be a pious devout knowledgeable Catholic who borders on sainthood to have any chance what-so-ever of being saved (from a legalistic standpoint - Gods abundant mercy aside)
2. The Catholic concept of Mortal sin is not correct (which of course means Catholicism itself is a falsehood since the church’s teaching on these matters are infallible)

So either the church is correct and everyone I know is going to Hell (please see qualifier above), or the church is mistaken and I am in the wrong place.

Again, something is wrong with this picture. Frankly I am beginning to feel foolish believing God created a world in which most it’s inhabitants will burn in hell (really no sense mincing words here is there)?"

My comment is:

G.K. Chesterton said: “The most dangerous thing in the world is to be alive. One is always in danger of one’s life! But anyone who shrinks from that is a traitor to the great scheme and experiment of being.”

There is much danger in knowledge, because the more you know, the more you are responsible for what you do with it. But with that knowledge, you also have a much greater opportunity to enter into a truly deep, personal relationship with your Creator, and there can be nothing that would even begin to compare with that.

One other quote from Chesterton from his Book Orthodoxy:

“To the Buddhist or the eastern fatalist, existence is a science or a plan, which must end up in a certain way. But to a Christian, existence is a story, which may end up in any way. In a thrilling novel (that purely Christian product) the hero is not eaten by cannibals; but it is essential to the existence of the thrill that he might be eaten by cannibals. The hero must (so to speak) be an eatable hero. So Christian morals have always said to the man, not the he would lose his soul, but that he must take care that he didn’t. In Christian morals, in short, it is wicked to call a man “dammed”: but it is strictly religious and philosophic to call him damnable.”

Do you honestly think a God of love, one who came to this earth and died that its inhabitants might have life, would so readily consign everyone to hell? That is why the Church says that for a sin to be mortal, it can’t just be the action, but the knowledge and willingness behind it. God says he wishes all to be saved, and I think he meant that!

Those who will lose their salvation and go to hell are those who willingly and knowingly reject their Saviour. You can’t “accidentally” go to hell. But yes, if you are aware of what sin in, and choose to disregard that knowledge, you are in danger of hell fire.

If you truly love God and wish to be with him, you will be! It is only those who are trying to keep one foot in this world who have something to worry about!

Mary

 

[Dauphin]

God is incapable of injustice. We can be certain that whatever happens to souls after they die, it is perfectly just. We may never be able to understand, however, exactly how it is just for so many people to descend into hell. God’s ways are beyond our comprehension; when you think about it, how could it be any other way? How can we expect God to fit into our human conceptions of justice?

It is only in our arrogance that we demand to understand how each person is judged. It is our arrogance that leads us to demand that God and His church conform to our primitive understanding of justice. This is a matter on which we must simply trust in the Church and in the principle that God is perfectly just.
With this established, there are perhaps some approaches which can lead us to a better understanding of salvation.

It might help us to take a more ‘positive’ view of salvation, instead of focusing on the alternative (hell). Instead of seeing salvation as some sort of entitlement, we should view it as an extraordinary gift of perfect bliss and eternal union with God given to a soul which has strived to submit perfectly to the will of God through faith in Christ (invincible ignorance aside). If one dies in mortal sin (always taking into account subjective culpability and the three conditions for mortal sin), then it would certainly be injust to grant that person such an extraordinary reward.

With this perspective, and with the knowledge that there are only two final destinations (heaven, hell), we can say definitively that it must be just that these souls descend into hell. It is exactly how this is just that remains beyond our comprehension, but we can be certain that it is just because God’s judgment is perfect.

(I believe Dante theorized about ‘circles of hell’ - the first and least painful of which is for the unbaptised and the pagans who lived virtuous lives but could not accept Christ. I’m honestly not sure how the church views such theories, but maybe Dante’s views could be helpful)

 

[Neil_Anthony]

What is and what is not a mortal sin in the Catholic church is clearly ambiguous at best.

As I see it there is one of two basic catagories both of which is distressing and troublesome.

1. One needs to be a pious devout knowledgeable Catholic who borders on sainthood to have any chance what-so-ever of being saved (from a legalistic standpoint - Gods abundant mercy aside)

I thought the definition of mortal sin was pretty clear. The catechism uses the word ‘grave’ to indicate which sins are mortal.

Also I don’t see why one has to ‘border on sainthood’ to be in a state of grace, when the confession is there for people who fail and are sorry for it.

 

[joecap]

Those who will lose their salvation and go to hell are those who willingly and knowingly reject their Saviour. You can’t “accidentally” go to hell. But yes, if you are aware of what sin in, and choose to disregard that knowledge, you are in danger of hell fire.

If you truly love God and wish to be with him, you will be! It is only those who are trying to keep one foot in this world who have something to worry about!

Mary

I completely agree with that statement, Mary.
I hope I am not being overly-confident in God’s view when I say I believe I will be saved. God knows my heart, and my heart longs to be with Him, to see His will being done, and how I feel towards my fellow neighbors.

I can also state confidently that had I died a few years ago, that would have been a very different story. In His infinite mercy and kindness, God has allowed me to remain alive long enough to return to Him and repent of my sins. Why everyone else in the world does not get this chance, I can’t say. It is another reason to be thankful.

Regarding God’s perfect justice, I would bet that upon our death, whether we go to heaven or hell, our enlightened souls will instantly see the perfection and “correctness” of that justice, and we will know right away that whatever we get, we deserve.

 

[teachccd]

The church teaches that there is indeed a hell but there is no official teaching that there is anyone there…God is infinitely just but He is also infinitely merciful. In that infinite mercy he would find anything within one’s heart to find that person worthy of His kingdom. While one might expect Hitler to be in hell there is no one who can prove that he is. And I never moved from official Church teachings with anything that I said here. Yes, there is a hell. Yes those who fully reject God may go there. But now we leave the rest for God to decide.

Are most people going to hell?? Only God knows…teachccd

 

[Brooklyn]

The church teaches that there is indeed a hell but there is no official teaching that there is anyone there…QUOTE]

Would you consider the Lady of Fatima an official teaching? From
theimmaculateheart.com/

“On July 13, the children were again waiting for the lady. This time there were about five thousand others waiting too. The lady told the children that she would work a great miracle in October so that all would believe she had appeared there. She also showed them a vision of hell, and it was so terrible that the children said they would have died of fear if the lady had not told them they were to go to heaven.”

The Lady also told the children that more people go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.

Hell is very real. That is why, when we pray the Rosary, we pray “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.”

I don’t know about you, but I sure do need his mercy!

Mary

 

[14er]

I’m no Biblical expert, but when a question like this comes up, and ones similar to it such as “when will the world end?” I always think to the Old Testament story in Genesis 18 about Abraham who pleads with God to spare the city (is it Sodom?) He asks God if He will spare the city if he can find 50 righteous people in the city, and it is granted. But then he begs God down to if he can find 10 righteous people. God then says he will not destroy the city for the sake of those 10.

When you seriously examine the news and examine the way people live their lives these days, it’s not too hard to see that most will not get to heaven.

But life on earth will go on and new souls will be created so that they may live with God forever. All for the sake of those 10.

 

[Blinky]

God wishes all to be saved. That’s why He established His Church to administer the Sacraments that give us His Grace. Particularly, Confession in regards to absolving sin (especially mortal ones).

 

[sodak]

teachccd;2705601:

The church teaches that there is indeed a hell but there is no official teaching that there is anyone there…QUOTE]

Would you consider the Lady of Fatima an official teaching?

No, I wouldn’t. I have serious reservations about some of the things that she said to the children. Fortunately, it’s a private revelation, so I am not required to believe it.

 

[Mijoy2]

First, I’d like to thank Brooklyn (Mary) for starting this thread. I have a suspicion it came from her sense that I was a bit desperate and she wanted to help. Which, her post certainly did.
I can see the reason in both Chesterton (who maybe I need to read again) and Brooklyn’s words.

Having said that I still have some difficulties. Let me explain. It seems there are two parallel thoughts when the issue of mortal sin and hell emerge.

One, from the more legalistic perspective and the other from the more sentimental perspective.

First, the legalistic perspective. When issues such as masturbation, missing mass, birth control come up, sins that one or another, most all people (including Catholics) commit the majority of posts in these forums are very quick to insinuate (come close to but fall short of) suggesting that the souls of the people who commit these sins (again virtually all people) are in very serious danger of eternal hell fire. One doesn’t have to be a mathmetician to figure that this is a pretty cut and dry outcome if in fact true. Either God is going to pardon most all souls or most all souls are damned. Simple math.

Second, the sentimantal approach. When one gets pressed as to the logical outcome of the “legalistic perspective” it appears one begins to see the logic in the seemingly catastrophic nature of this legality and begins to backtrack with phrases such as “God is loving and would not send all His creation to hell”, and the one that really troubles me, “anyone who goes to hell chose it for themselves”. Which of course is directly analogous to suggesting most people light thier hair on fire just for the fun of it. Its perposterous (when looked at from thaat perspective). Nobody I know (outside of a joking) says they desire or are going to hell.

What troubles me is that we seem to want it both ways. We want to hold fast and firm to our legalities, yet we want to believe “good people” from our wordly definiition (admittedly) will not ever see such a torment as the hell we teach.

See what troubles me is that all the Catholics I know (outside of a few in my parish) and I know many coming from Massachusetts and a large cradle Catholic extended family, none go to Mass regularily and (i think it is very safe to assume) most all use BC and perform other sins of the flesh (that are, of course, simply considered right of passage these days).

So I find myself torn between the first and second perspecive. And the two are not mutually compatable. Which leads me to believe both cannot co-exist.

Again , i’d like to reiterate, I greatly appreciate those who wish to enlighten me and seem to make an effort to understand my perspective on this.

 

[bilop]

The church teaches that there is indeed a hell but there is no official teaching that there is anyone there…God is infinitely just but He is also infinitely merciful. In that infinite mercy he would find anything within one’s heart to find that person worthy of His kingdom. While one might expect Hitler to be in hell there is no one who can prove that he is. And I never moved from official Church teachings with anything that I said here. Yes, there is a hell. Yes those who fully reject God may go there. But now we leave the rest for God to decide.

Are most people going to hell?? Only God knows…teachccd

I agree we can’t say for certain if any particular person is in Hell (though we can made some pretty good guesses).

However, the idea of an empty Hell is completely against scripture and tradition.

Jesus himself tells us in Matthew Ch 7 and 25

13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

and

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

…

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

If we read the Gospels it is clear that Hell is real, and a real possibility for all of us.

God Bless

 

[Brooklyn]

See what troubles me is that all the Catholics I know (outside of a few in my parish) and I know many coming from Massachusetts and a large cradle Catholic extended family, none go to Mass regularily and (i think it is very safe to assume) most all use BC and perform other sins of the flesh (that are, of course, simply considered right of passage these days).

That is so troubling, isn’t it? It does seem most Catholics in the Western World are Catholic in name only and not in belief and practice. Are they truly responsible for what they are doing, or have they been infected by the disease of our culture, which is no belief in absolute truth. That, of course, is a contradiction in itself because it is stating an absolute truth, but that’s another discussion.

God is a God of Love. He proved that by dying a horrible death on the Cross to take away our sins. And he says he is aware of every sparrow that falls to the ground, so how much more aware is he of every single human being and their spiritual state. We know he doesn’t want anyone to be lost. So we can only assume that he will do whatever he can to bring people to salvation. The one thing he can’t do is make the decision for them.

I have only recently come back to the Catholic Church, and I did many bad things and committed mortal sins while I was away from the Church. But if I had died before returning to the Church, would I have gone to hell? I don’t think so because I truly was not aware of the gravity of my sins. I know I certainly wasn’t ready for heaven, but I don’t think I would have gone to hell. I would have needed purgatory, which Fr. Groeshel calls “summer school.” Purgatory is a place for us to be purged and be made ready to be in the presence of God.

Maybe that is true for most people now. I know that for myself, if I were to turn away from the truth now, I would be guilty and would go to hell. But maybe for most of the people we know who are not adhering to the teachings of the Church, even though they know in their heads what the Church teaches, they don’t know it in their hearts, as I now do. So maybe they won’t be held as fully responsible and not have to pay the ultimate price. But certainly it is our responsiblity to pray for all people that their heads and hearts will be open to God.

God is a God of love, and that is what we need to count on.

Mary

 

[DL82]

I think it all hinges on the question of what constitutes awareness with regard to mortal sin.

On the one extreme, is knowing that there’s a thing called the Catholic Church that has a lot of rules, among which is that x is wrong enough to make you aware that x is a mortal sin?

On the other extreme, do you have to know by experience why it is that the Catholic Church teaches that x is a mortal sin, accept the authority of the Church as being derived from Christ by the gift of faith (and faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, not something we can do by ourselves) and to know what it is to experience closeness to God, then to deliberately choose to alienate ourselves from God by doing an act that we know by direct experience will hurt us?

The reality probably lies somewhere in between, but only God knows for sure.

My attitude is to prepare for the worst but expect the best. Study, pray and evangelise as if salvation were near impossible, but live, praise and hope in the knowledge that God’s mercy and love are infinite.

 

[Mijoy2]

Maybe that is true for most people now. I know that for myself, if I were to turn away from the truth now, I would be guilty and would go to hell. But maybe for most of the people we know who are not adhering to the teachings of the Church, even though they know in their heads what the Church teaches, they don’t know it in their hearts, as I now do. So maybe they won’t be held as fully responsible and not have to pay the ultimate price. But certainly it is our responsiblity to pray for all people that their heads and hearts will be open to God.

Mary

This is precisely the way I have thought about it.

You and I have what appears to be an almost identical history. Many years away (in my case 35-40), revert, brought family (who were protestant) into the faith.

My rational towards this issue is precisely as you have stated here. The way I look at it is that if I were to deliberately ignore church teaching my soul would be in much more danger than a Cathoic friend or family member who ignores the faith but has not investigated it as thoroughly and witnessed the truth as I have.

It is a comfort to hear someone say (write) what I have thought.

 

[Contarini]

I think it all hinges on the question of what constitutes awareness with regard to mortal sin.

On the one extreme, is knowing that there’s a thing called the Catholic Church that has a lot of rules, among which is that x is wrong enough to make you aware that x is a mortal sin?

On the other extreme, do you have to know by experience why it is that the Catholic Church teaches that x is a mortal sin, accept the authority of the Church as being derived from Christ by the gift of faith (and faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, not something we can do by ourselves) and to know what it is to experience closeness to God, then to deliberately choose to alienate ourselves from God by doing an act that we know by direct experience will hurt us?

The reality probably lies somewhere in between, but only God knows for sure.

My attitude is to prepare for the worst but expect the best. Study, pray and evangelise as if salvation were near impossible, but live, praise and hope in the knowledge that God’s mercy and love are infinite.

C. S. Lewis gave some good general advice that I think applies to this: when other people are in question, err on the side of charity (assume that they are acting in good faith, in this instance); in one’s own case, err on the side of rigor (i.e., don’t let yourself off the hook by saying that God is merciful). Obviously one can take this too far, particular the second part (as in scrupulosity), and obviously one should witness to the truth whether people are disobeying it through ignorance or wilfully. But I think it’s a good approach in general.

Edwin

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

That is so troubling, isn’t it? It does seem most Catholics in the Western World are Catholic in name only and not in belief and practice. Are they truly responsible for what they are doing, or have they been infected by the disease of our culture, which is no belief in absolute truth. That, of course, is a contradiction in itself because it is stating an absolute truth, but that’s another discussion.

Ask yourself why can it be looked this way? I think it is because it is because the Church is only one part of the world, not the entirety of it, which is normal for people. Their lives do not revolve around the Church 24/7 but have to live and deal with what the rest of the world tosses at them all week long with an hour exception. So I would say that CINO is not as bad as some people make it out to be. All people transcend narrowly focused labels.

 

[tomarin]

i guess the fate of lapsed catholics (which is the majority of my family members, also from massachusetts, and all of my immediate family) depends on how you interpret luke 12:48 – “to whom much is given much will be required”.

today is the first anniversary of the death of my boss, who was like a friend to me. he was raised catholic but had become completely agnostic if not atheistic. you might say he was given the gift of having been born into a catholic family with a devout french mother but he willfully chose the life of a secular atheist.

i often wonder, did he make it to purgatory (knowing full well that speculating about the fate of particular individuals is discouraged). according to the teaching of the catholic church, i don’t see how he could have rejected the church and still done so. jesus said “the only way to the father is through me” and for us that means through the catholic church.

on the other hand, the holy spirit didn’t open his heart and mind to the existence of god as were mine, so one might say despite his upbringing he was never truly given the gift of discerning the truth. if this is the case, it sets a higher standard for “to whom much is given” and diminishes the importance of his rejection. after all, if he had no spiritual eyes with which to see it’s no wonder he rejected god and his church.

this doesn’t seem right to me however as it reduces free will to almost nothing, and free will seems to be important if not central to the christian notion of salvation. if you have to have your eyes opened by the holy spirit in order to believe, and this is something you have no control over, then how is choosing to believe an act of free will exactly? in this view it’s more like something that happens automatically once the spirit intervenes. this would verge on predestination, which is a heretical doctrine.

if the phenomenon of lapsed catholics raises uncomfortable questions, what about that of non-catholics? for me the doctrine of “extra ecclesiam nulla sallus” is even more troubling.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

teachccd;2705601:

The church teaches that there is indeed a hell but there is no official teaching that there is anyone there…QUOTE]

Would you consider the Lady of Fatima an official teaching? From
theimmaculateheart.com/

“On July 13, the children were again waiting for the lady. This time there were about five thousand others waiting too. The lady told the children that she would work a great miracle in October so that all would believe she had appeared there. She also showed them a vision of hell, and it was so terrible that the children said they would have died of fear if the lady had not told them they were to go to heaven.”

The Lady also told the children that more people go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.

Hell is very real. That is why, when we pray the Rosary, we pray “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.”

I don’t know about you, but I sure do need his mercy!

Mary##

• 1. Apparitions are not sources of doctrine - for the simple reason that only what is in the desposit of faith can be taught as doctrine. Apparitions form no part of the deposit.
• 1. Apparitions can bind no one but the persons who receive them - the rest of us are dependent on the honesty, memory, understanding, orthodoxy & other personal qualities of those recipients; & the Church’s faith cannot be at the mercy of mere children.
• 1. It is for the bishops in union with Rome, & **not **for visionaries to teach & interpret the Faith; visions & visionaries are entirely capable of deceiving, & have often done so; whereas the bishops cannot err or deceive so long as they teach the Faith of the Church
• 1. If what a visionary thinks a vision says is indeed true, this is because that truth was already true - not because a vision said it. Visions are worthless as sources of doctrine unless they are in accord with the Faith - if they are not in accord with it, then they come either from our corrupted fantasies or from the devil; & in neither case should they be believed
• 1. It is the way of satan to mix truth with falsehood, so that he may trap the unwary all the more completely - so the mere presence of truth in a lying vision does not make it anything but an illusion of satan, sweet as it may seem at first. Enormous harm is done by trusting every vision as God-given - most are nothing of the kind: as the non-fulfilment of prophecies made by them proves
• 1. There can be no good reason to go outside the ordinary channels by which the teaching authority in the Church teaches us: to run after visions for teaching is needless & presumptuous, because there is no other source of teaching that is legitimate or necessary.
     As for the main question:
• 1. That is God’s business
• 1. It’s the wrong question, because it is fatalistic.
• 1. There are more important things than that - such as whether God is loved.
• 1. If people found life unendurable without God, as we should, the question would not even arise. It is almost like asking “What is the least I can do to be saved ?”
• 1. The damnation of others is not a spectator sport
• 1. What others may think of God, we cannot affect beyond a certain point - people must decide for themselves what they think of Christ
• 1. So the question comes down to, not “Does my neighbour (whom I can influence only up to a point) love God ?”, but “Do I love God ?”; & that is something each of us has to answer for himself.

 

[Alphonsus_John]

A few points:

C.S. Lewis pointed out that how God judges us is not necessarily how we judge each other. Someone with a neurotic fear of cats handling a cat for some charitable reason may gain more merit than others who do more heroic acts but are fully in control of the mental faculties. A person who was raised to continually think that evil is good who performs some small act of charity may merit more in God’s eyes than a devout and pious man who came from a good family and was brought up in the Church.

God knows our limitations and our background and an infinitely merciful God and takes them into account in his Judgements. Also, we can pray and mortify ourselves which may gain merit for others as well. Sr. Josefa Menendez writes about Victim souls and how they prevent (through the Blood of Christ) other souls from going to hell.

That being said, it is written all over how souls choose hell and that even if the gates of hell were opened no one would leave because they must have some thing over God.

Many, many saints have written how hell is quite crowded so I believe that the thought of it’s emptiness is fallacy. I know I deserved it, having wallowed in mortal sin for the better part of 2 decades. I can only lean on the Divine Mercy and pray.

 

[Brooklyn]

##

• 1.

Apparitions are not sources of doctrine - for the simple reason that only what is in the desposit of faith can be taught as doctrine. Apparitions form no part of the deposit.
*

1. Apparitions can bind no one but the persons who receive them - the rest of us are dependent on the honesty, memory, understanding, orthodoxy & other personal qualities of those recipients; & the Church’s faith cannot be at the mercy of mere children.

• QUOTE]

If that is true, then what about the apparition at Fatima? The prophecys and teachings given at Fatima came from our Lady, not from the children. The children were only the medium that she used. And these prophecies and teachings were given to the whole world, and it has been sanctioned by the Church. The prayers given at Fatima have been officially incorporated into the Rosary.

So doesn’t that make it the part of the church beliefs?

Mary