Are most people going to hell?

[johnstown_johnn]

Young St. Bernadette when being probed about the state of her mind and soul while receiving the apparitions of the Blessed Mother at the Grotto in Lourdes was asked, “Bernadette, what is a sinner?”

She replied, “A sinner is one who LOVES sin.”

 

[opticks]

Many mortal sins are Natural Law sins (murder, aldultery, theft, perjury etc), and all men are born with knowledge of the Natural law. Ignorance is no escape from culpability on these sins.

God Bless

Yes, true, but many mortal sins are not. Therefore, when you learn of them, you are increasing your chances of going to hell.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Yes, true, but many mortal sins are not. Therefore, when you learn of them, you are increasing your chances of going to hell.

When one learns of mortal sin and deeper into the details of mortal sin and AVOIDS them with the pure knowledge of the seriousness of a mortal sin…THAT PERSON MOVES CLOSER TO GOD.

Avoiding serious sin ignites more charity and virtue in a person. He/she grows in the knowledge of God regarding His beauty and love.

But are more people going to Hell? The only clue is that Heaven is the “Narrow Gate” while the “Wide Gate” is Hell.

 

[opticks]

When one learns of mortal sin and deeper into the details of mortal sin and AVOIDS them with the pure knowledge of the seriousness of a mortal sin…THAT PERSON MOVES CLOSER TO GOD.

Avoiding serious sin ignites more charity and virtue in a person. He/she grows in the knowledge of God regarding His beauty and love.

But are more people going to Hell? The only clue is that Heaven is the “Narrow Gate” while the “Wide Gate” is Hell.

There’s nothing here I disagree with but I don’t think you are addressing my comment.

The bottom line is this. The theology of the church contradicts itself when you start talking about Hell and mortal (grave) sin. The very act of increasing your knowledge of the Faith exposes you to a greater risk of going to Hell. Why, because to commit a mortal sin you must know it is mortal in the first place. Therefore doing a good thing leads to a very bad thing, put simply. Of course we are leaving God’s will out of this, and when your time is up, only He decides, not the Church.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

There’s nothing here I disagree with but I don’t think you are addressing my comment.

The bottom line is this. The theology of the church contradicts itself when you start talking about Hell and mortal (grave) sin. The very act of increasing your knowledge of the Faith exposes you to a greater risk of going to Hell. Why, because to commit a mortal sin you must know it is mortal in the first place. Therefore doing a good thing leads to a very bad thing, put simply. Of course we are leaving God’s will out of this, and when your time is up, only He decides, not the Church.

So, then “ignorance is bliss?”

The catechism says, “…God made us to know Him; to love Him; and to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in the next.”

“Knowing God” is knowing His Commandments which, in there nature, God reveals Himself to us. The Commandments are really rules of love of God and neighbor. They (Commandments) are not a list of “annoying rules” they are instead the pathway in knowing Him. And keeping them we become more like Him.

By the looks of this world of today and the turning away from God’s Law it appears that more people are giving way to worldliness and pleasure-seeking.

God destroyed two entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) for the sinfulness of all but a few (Lott and family) so in that respect …Most people have been cast in Hell.

Does history repeat itself? We all pray not !

 

[AndyF]

Mary

Before I go on with my own thoughts, it is theological belief that there is more people in heaven because it would not be fitting that there would be more of the damned than the elect.

Anyway my view…

1. One needs to be a pious devout knowledgeable Catholic who borders on sainthood to have any chance what-so-ever of being saved (from a legalistic standpoint - Gods abundant mercy aside)

True, and it would seem the more mature your faith becomes the more critical your actions become and are judged.

[As an aside, I have a suspicion those who are reprobated have a harder time of persuasion than the elect all factors remaining equal for the elect, but I can’t prove it.]

The rule for culpability of mortal sin is as follows:

1/You must know the seriousness of the action and that it is wrong.
2/You must freely choose to act.
3/You must complete the act.

I find the doctrinely stated first rule above deserves more study by our theologians, and also agree to your (1) above also.

Take killing as our point. If as a nine year old I learn that God states killing is wrong, then at that point I have learned that it is a serious act if I do it. Not remembering is not an excuse because our faith is to be tempered by keeping in review it’s teachings, therefore, the evil I commit in the act of killing is a demerit compounded by the additional fact I also sinned by not remembering.

Secondly, doctrine states no person regardless of religious persuasion or lack theroff is left stranded. He has his conscience as a guide. The excuse in this department becomes redundant once again. A refusal to temper conscience is also culpable to the individual.

If I always remember the decalogue, then every sin I make that breaks it becomes mortal provided 2 and 3 are applicable. If I don’t remember it, then that is also culpable. It was my understanding a guilty act cannot come to the defense of another. The whole point of God’s presentation is a preventative measure, and he saw fit that our memory would suffice in archiving His message for our use.

The outcome of all this and what we see now is at judgement is either one is saved because the forgetfulness of one is a defense, and the remembering of one isn’t.

AndyF

 

[opticks]

So, then “ignorance is bliss?”

The catechism says, “…God made us to know Him; to love Him; and to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in the next.”

“Knowing God” is knowing His Commandments which, in there nature, God reveals Himself to us. The Commandments are really rules of love of God and neighbor. They (Commandments) are not a list of “annoying rules” they are instead the pathway in knowing Him. And keeping them we become more like Him.

By the looks of this world of today and the turning away from God’s Law it appears that more people are giving way to worldliness and pleasure-seeking.

God destroyed two entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) for the sinfulness of all but a few (Lott and family) so in that respect …Most people have been cast in Hell.

Does history repeat itself? We all pray not !

No, ignorance is not bliss. However, ignorance of the fact an action is mortally sinful (vasectomy for example), eliminates your chance to go to Hell for that specific action as defined by Catholic Theology.

 

[marymol]

Young St. Bernadette when being probed about the state of her mind and soul while receiving the apparitions of the Blessed Mother at the Grotto in Lourdes was asked, “Bernadette, what is a sinner?”

She replied, “A sinner is one who LOVES sin.”

That statement can help to get over the sense of resentment about anything unjust in persons going to hell…

God is Love , in the sense of all that goes with True Love - goodness , truth, justice, mercy …

God, in His TRUTH, allow persons , to have / become what they love …and all that goes with it …

That would be the just and right of Fatherhood !

 

[johnstown_johnn]

That statement can help to get over the sense of resentment about anything unjust in persons going to hell…

God is Love , in the sense of all that goes with True Love - goodness , truth, justice, mercy …

God, in His TRUTH, allow persons , to have / become what they love …and all that goes with it …

That would be the just and right of Fatherhood !

Your analysis above is a perfect application. A sinner, as described by Bernadette, LOVES SIN and Not God. Again, it’s a matter of choice.

 

[crenfro]

Do you honestly think a God of love, one who came to this earth and died that its inhabitants might have life, would so readily consign everyone to hell? That is why the Church says that for a sin to be mortal, it can’t just be the action, but the knowledge and willingness behind it. God says he wishes all to be saved, and I think he meant that!

Mary

Thank you so much for this topic. I’ve been worried sick since I read in another thread about a sermon from St. Leonard where it was said, in a vision, that only 3 out of 33000 were saved. I got depressed.

Isn’t anxiety over one’s salvation something to be avoided?

 

[opticks]

The rule for culpability of mortal sin is as follows:

1/You must know the seriousness of the action and that it is wrong.
2/You must freely choose to act.
3/You must complete the act.

I find the doctrinely stated first rule above deserves more study by our theologians…

AndyF

I’d say…Item number one is a huge hang-up for me. Be a good Catholic, read the CCC, your “culpability counter” goes through the roof and your chances of going to the Lake of Fire increases dramatically. Now, compare this to your average Catholic who hasn’t read the Bible since CCD and thinks the CCC is a bra size.

The concept of mortal sin, as currently defined, is asinine.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

I’d say…Item number one is a huge hang-up for me. Be a good Catholic, read the CCC, your “culpability counter” goes through the roof and your chances of going to the Lake of Fire increases dramatically. Now, compare this to your average Catholic who hasn’t read the Bible since CCD and thinks the CCC is a bra size.

The concept of mortal sin, as currently defined, is asinine.

What you are saying is heresy. better watch it.

 

[Sabda]

I’d say…Item number one is a huge hang-up for me. Be a good Catholic, read the CCC, your “culpability counter” goes through the roof and your chances of going to the Lake of Fire increases dramatically. Now, compare this to your average Catholic who hasn’t read the Bible since CCD and thinks the CCC is a bra size.

The concept of mortal sin, as currently defined, is asinine.

How is it asinine?

As it was already stated in order for a sin to be mortal it must:

1. Be of grave matter
2. you must have full knowledge
3. you must give full consent

I stated on another thread that I can see most people getting #1. However, #2 and 3 are not so easy to know. If a person does not have full knowledge then how can they give full consent? An item being of grave matter does not automatically mean the person is going to Hell. In order for a sin to be mortal it must meet all three requirements. If it does not, then it is not a mortal sin. It could quite possibly mean that all they did was commit a grave sin, which is not the same as mortal. Murder is a very grave sin. But a person who commits murder is not automatically condemned to Hell unless he meets all three of the above requirements and dies in an unrepentant state.

Don’t forget the Bible says that God knows and judges the heart.

Many people may be in the CCD classes but how many of them are actually hearing what is being taught? I know I don’t remember a thing about my CCD classes. I had no clue why I was even in the confessional when I went in for my First Confession. It does no good to preach the message if no one is hearing it. I think that has been a major problem for the Church in the past several years. The teaching has been constant but no one has heard it. A large part of this is the fault of the parents. If the parents are not teaching their children the faith at home then you can not expect the children to get it when they are in CCD classes or at Mass. After all parents are the first and primary teachers of their children.

Also, we can not leave Purgatory out of the equation. Until the end of time Purgatory will continue to play a huge role in all of this. Purgatory is where God really does show us his mercy. It is in Purgatory that we are cleansed by the fire of God. And as such made perfect for Heaven. You may not be destined for Hell but unless you are made perfect you will not be destined for Heaven either. Thus the need for Purgatory.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

How can someone commit MURDER and not be aware of the three conditions? Civil law alone spells that out.

If a MURDERER understands civil law but God’s law is not in the equation? This is like shooting into acrowd blindfolded.

Very puzzling!

 

[Sabda]

How can someone commit MURDER and not be aware of the three conditions? Civil law alone spells that out.

If a MURDERER understands civil law but God’s law is not in the equation? This is like shooting into acrowd blindfolded.

Very puzzling!

So you would say that someone who commits murder is automatically condemned to Hell? Do you know that person’s mental state or anything else about them? Take for example the mother’s who kill their children. One thing that has been noticed is that many of these women suffer from mental illnesses.

As I stated above a person who commits murder MUST meet ALL three of the above requirements AND die in an unreptentant state. For a person with a mental illness it is highly questionable that they have full knowledge of what they are doing. If they don’t have full knowledge then it is also questionable that they gave full consent.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

So you would say that someone who commits murder is automatically condemned to Hell? Do you know that person’s mental state or anything else about them? Take for example the mother’s who kill their children. One thing that has been noticed is that many of these women suffer from mental illnesses.

As I stated above a person who commits murder MUST meet ALL three of the above requirements AND die in an unreptentant state. For a person with a mental illness it is highly questionable that they have full knowledge of what they are doing. If they don’t have full knowledge then it is also questionable that they gave full consent.

What you are citing here is the EXCEPTION and NOT the RULE. Oftentimes, mass murderers are possessed. This happens most of the time by allowing demons to enter. But civil law puts them away.

As for mothers that kill their children it probably applies as well…but she is put away. But I argue she knew of the civil law.

But we do not always know if a murderer is using “mental illness” as a defense.

There IS such a thing as murder…it’s mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

 

[Brooklyn]

Jesus Christ said in Mark 8:35 - “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.”

When we say the Act of Contrition, we say: “O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love.”

Certainly we need to have a healthy fear of going to hell - I know I do. But if that is our main motivating factor, I think we may be in danger. If our main concern is basically “being saved”, we are not developing our love for God. We need to get beyond that. We need to develop our Love for Christ. Mother Teresa is an amazing model for that. She felt completely cut off from him for most of her life, could not feel his presence at all, and yet she still loved him and would do anything for him. She did not seem concerned about herself at all. And certainly Our Lady is the ultimate example, always obeying and submitting.

If we’re mainly concerned about being saved to escape hell, I think we are in danger. If our motivating factor in life is love for our Saviour, we will most certainly go to heaven. I think that is what we need to pray for. Remember that old song from the 70’s - Day By Day - “To see thee more clearly, to follow thee more nearly, to love thee more dearly, day by day.” It may seem silly and simplistic, but I think there is a lot of truth there.

Mary

 

[Allstarbaby]

Yes we are because our drug fueled orgies are frowned upon

 

[Sabda]

What you are citing here is the EXCEPTION and NOT the RULE. Oftentimes, mass murderers are possessed. This happens most of the time by allowing demons to enter. But civil law puts them away.

As for mothers that kill their children it probably applies as well…but she is put away. But I argue she knew of the civil law.

But we do not always know if a murderer is using “mental illness” as a defense.

There IS such a thing as murder…it’s mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

You do realize that civil law is NOT God’s law. For example civil law allows abortion. God’s law does not. Yes, there are the 10 Commandments, which are to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.”

As I stated in my above post only God knows and judges the heart. We can NOT know what is in someone’s heart and therefore can not judge.

 

[jmcrae]

I’d say…Item number one is a huge hang-up for me. Be a good Catholic, read the CCC, your “culpability counter” goes through the roof and your chances of going to the Lake of Fire increases dramatically. Now, compare this to your average Catholic who hasn’t read the Bible since CCD and thinks the CCC is a bra size.

The concept of mortal sin, as currently defined, is asinine.

Only if we think that the goal of life is to skin the bottom level of Purgatory, just barely out of reach of the flames of Hell.

Grave matter still harms the soul. It kills it if you did the thing on purpose, but the person doesn’t get off scot-free just because they didn’t know it was bad. There are, first of all, the temporal consequences, which are usually unpleasant - everyone is mad at you, you have a bad headache, maybe you are even in the hospital. Bad enough, but, also realize that when we are not practicing the virtues (and we can’t sin and practice virtue at the same time) then we are not increasing in our capacity for happiness.

So, someone who goes through life blithely and unknowingly sinning away, having no idea why everything seems to go wrong for him or why everyone always seems to be mad at him, dies with only a baby-sized “cup” of happiness, due to the fact that he never increased his capacity for virtue.

But someone who practices heroic virtue all of his life will die having increased his capacity for virtue, and thus, his capacity for happiness, maybe to the size of an Olympic swimming pool, or to the size of an ocean, or even the size of all the oceans on earth.

So, although both will ultimately get to Heaven, the one who has practiced virtue will be much happier (by many orders of magnitude) than the one who unknowingly sinned all of his life. Yet, both will be as happy as it is possible for them to be - thus we see both God’s mercy, and God’s justice.