Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?

[tomarin]

Hehe… I am not trying to get political power. I can assure you of that.

Maybe not you personally, but there are obviously political ramifications to what you are saying here, especially for Europe, where there is a much larger Islamic presence than here in the States. Do you support a particular party in your country that has promised to “do something” about the non-European immigrants in Denmark?

Just so I’m not misunderstood, let me clarify that I think all countries have the right to regulate immigration within their borders as they see fit. But I also think that there are good and bad reasons for doing so, and doing so on the basis of a stereotype that isn’t accurate may be immoral (as well as bad policy).

With all due respect, you put words into my mouth. We have many moderate Muslims that do well in Western democracy, they go about their business and daily life and bother no one.

Are they more typical of Muslims in Europe, would you say, or are the violent-prone, intolerant, Sharia-loving ones more typical?

But what I seek here, is to describe tendencies and deep illnesses in the Muslim religion and world view, which has implications for millions through history and also today.

I think we’re back to stereotyping. Don’t you think stereotyping an entire group is wrong? That’s my take, and it’s why I bothered to bring this up in the first place. I am worried that if you and others are presenting an exaggerated or simplified or distorted picture, then we may not have learned the lesson of the Holocaust.

So you compare me to Nazis.
Yet I have not said Muslims are in themselves immoral… I am saying that they are in severe temptation to become immoral the moment they start following the example and precepts of their religion sincerely.
I might have always been at the wrong places at the wrong times. In todays news in Denmark a new study was published saying that as many as 20 percent of the muslim population thinks terrorism is okay sometimes and that if a terror attack hits Denmark then it is the country’s own fault. That would in another time and age have been called treason against country… but now its suddenly over us in such vast numbers that we are powerless to even say that.
In my school life and city I have seen much… very much… but you dont care about all these cases…

I care, but I also wonder if they are typical of most Muslims in Europe.

You call them anecdotes… which I must say is not very respectful of you.

Why? The word “anecdote” just means they’re stories and not quantifiable data. There’s nothing objectionable about anecdotes in and of themselves, but they have to be seen in light of what they do and don’t prove. I could tell you an anecdote about a Chinese laundry-owner who was secretly a serial killer, for example, but most people wouldn’t take that as evidence that all or most Chinese laundromat owners were psychotic murderers.

You would do well in accusing me of lying by backing up your words with references to something I said that was not true. I hope you leave comfortable America and come to Holland eg. or maybe you want to try to go to the Middle East and walk with your cross and your Bible there and openly tell the muslim population about the friend you have in Jesus.

I don’t think you’re a liar by any means. I don’t think you have any dishonest motives whatsoever. And I wouldn’t call someone who is acting in good faith dishonest just to score argumentation points. (I also appreciate your replying to my post, by the way. I think we can disagree about certain things and still be civil to one another.)

I would also urge you to study antisemitism… because its not dead. Its kept alive by the devil himself who always works through ideologies that degrade the human person, its freedom and god-likeness. At any rate… you will probably say “all anecdotes” to things that you wish were not true. It becomes more and more clear to me that people believe what they want to believe.

I’m looking into it.

Pax Christi,

Tomarin

 

[qui_est_ce]

I went to one (the latter) and was terribly shock being kicked out after my first post. I really didn’t know what hit me.

OT, but what was your post and what was the topic?

 

[GraceDK]

tomarin;
Maybe not you personally, but there are obviously political ramifications to what you are saying here, especially for Europe, where there is a much larger Islamic presence than here in the States. Do you support a particular party in your country that has promised to “do something” about the non-European immigrants in Denmark?

I am not interested in politics. I am interested in Truth. Jesus came to liberate man, not to make them slaves of new degrading systems of politics or religions.
If you want my honest oppinion I love our muslim population. In some ways they have something in common with me that the secular cculture does not. However, this does not mean that Islam is not a dangerous ideology. I compare it with Communism and Nazism. Hitler did a lot of good stuff in Germany. After the depression he really helped the country economically and created a good spirit of community and loyalty and love of country. However, in his book was also the ideas that there are races and people that are less than others and whom it was his duty, as he perceived it, to dispose off, for the good of society.
So too with Islam. Its a totalitarian system teaching you everything, from the way to wash, to the way to move when you pray to the number of whippings for people who have sinned. The Koran taken seriously is a threat to all civilisation, democracy etc. You may not really perceive this as off yet… but if you go to Pakistan these days, or maybe visit Gaza, Saudi Arabia or any other of the Arab countries listed on the persecution list made by Open doors ministry, then your idea will change.

Just so I’m not misunderstood, let me clarify that I think all countries have the right to regulate immigration within their borders as they see fit. But I also think that there are good and bad reasons for doing so, and doing so on the basis of a stereotype that isn’t accurate may be immoral (as well as bad policy).

You use the word stereotype again and again, but you havent backed it. It’s just one of those words people like to throw around. I critizise Islam. To me Islam is defined by Koran and Hadith( and therein included is sharia), and I believe that this religion influences culture and creates brutality… just like the relativism of the secularist ideology is threatening the very dignity of life… However, this ideology has no organized sripture as of yet…

Are they more typical of Muslims in Europe, would you say, or are the violent-prone, intolerant, Sharia-loving ones more typical?

That’s a very, very interesting question brother, and I am glad you ask. See, the thing is that a person can be both. Like… I will give you an example. We have a politician in Denmark. She is a serious Muslim, her name is Asmaa Abdol-Hamid. She was both a democratically elected politician, playing by democratic rules, but she also admitted publicly that she believed in Sharia as the best system. She gave the reason that she is Muslim so of course she believes in sharia. Now, for a normal democratic Westerner Sharia is not only false, its also brutal and supressive. So I ask you, does it worry you if you know that the Muslims in your country are pro-sharia and will, democratically, promote it, the day they are anough to do so? This is the reality, okay? Asmaa is not the only one… Even many of her own scold her for being liberal. We also have socalled Muslim-light Naser Khader, a very popular arab… but he is critical of Islam. Its very clear, if you are serious about Islam then you are not truly democratic. It’s a consequence that comes with the package. Recently a Danish Iman, Abdul Wahid Petersen said that he believes in stoning because he must accept the whole package as a Muslim. He was just being honest.

I think we’re back to stereotyping. Don’t you think stereotyping an entire group is wrong? That’s my take, and it’s why I bothered to bring this up in the first place. I am worried that if you and others are presenting an exaggerated or simplified or distorted picture, then we may not have learned the lesson of the Holocaust.

I believe Islam is a religion and ideology that prevents people from being free with the freedom that Christ bought for them with His blood. I have a strong oppinion about Islam. As for the Muslims… I am crazy about them. I don’t want to see them lost. Not in this life, and not in the afterlife. In Christ is the Reality… our true Identity. Can I ask you: do you believe a true Christian can stand silently wathcing while people are snatched out of the hands of Christ? The Church has been blamed for passiveness and cooperation with Nazi-Germany… Do you ever think that Islam might be another ideology that grows up right in front of the Vatican’s nose without being challenged …

**I care, but I also wonder if they are typical of most Muslims in Europe.

**

I have quoted statistics to you that made clear that a very big percentage of Muslims in my country are agaist freedom of speech and religious criticism and that a big percentage of them believe that terror can be justified. You may choose not to take my word for it.

I’m looking into it. (anti-semitism)

While you are at it I hope you look into answering-islam.org and the persecution list and its explanations… the Muslim countries are very much represented:
sb.od.org/index.php?supp_page=wwl_2008&supp_lang=en&PHPSESSID=5cbc0ea53e85cf4e01ad0cdcf408a699

 

[planten]

**There had been some discussion with GraceDk about criticism. Grace supported criticism. I did not. So very soon the result is coming out from few catholics about banning me. Why is that? Threatening??

Tell that to Grace. I do not like to criticise any one personally. But I will always look for weakness in the bibleNT in order to counter the false allegations against prophet Muhammad by Catholics. Otherwise I do not have any particular agenda against Jesus or the Jesus teachings. I do have an agenda against the imposters.**

 

[dzheremi]

Planten, nothing that you write is threatening to anyone because it’s usually irrelevant to whatever it is we’re talking about. People are talking about you being banned because you don’t post relevant arguments, and what you do post is very often offensive to us. Offense is fine (meaning, there are some things about what Muslims believe that will always be offensive to Christians, and vice-versa), but if it is coupled with irrelevancy then some people probably start to wonder why you’re allowed to stick around here and only post anti-Christian arguments that do not actually relate to our discussions. It is similar to that fellow whose name I have now forgotten who used to post over and over about Jesus living in India to 120 years of age. No one ever discussed that, but he brought it up over and over in threads that it was not relevant to and when no one would listen to stories he became very belligerent and was banned. This happens with you sometimes even though I don’t think you realize it or do it on purpose. I will not be surprised if you are banned, as there are plenty of Muslim posters who can stay on topic and do not post unrelated arguments or broad generalizations of “the West” as you do.

 

[jakasaki]

Planten, nothing that you write is threatening to anyone because it’s usually irrelevant to whatever it is we’re talking about. People are talking about you being banned because you don’t post relevant arguments, and what you do post is very often offensive to us. Offense is fine (meaning, there are some things about what Muslims believe that will always be offensive to Christians, and vice-versa), but if it is coupled with irrelevancy then some people probably start to wonder why you’re allowed to stick around here and only post anti-Christian arguments that do not actually relate to our discussions. It is similar to that fellow whose name I have now forgotten who used to post over and over about Jesus living in India to 120 years of age. No one ever discussed that, but he brought it up over and over in threads that it was not relevant to and when no one would listen to stories he became very belligerent and was banned. This happens with you sometimes even though I don’t think you realize it or do it on purpose. I will not be surprised if you are banned, as there are plenty of Muslim posters who can stay on topic and do not post unrelated arguments or broad generalizations of “the West” as you do.

Paars would say that Jesus lived and died in India at the age of 120 and was married.

That’s the user you are thinking off and yes, he would repeat it over and over regardless of what the topic was.

 

[planten]

**
dzhereme, there was nothing irrelevant in my posts. Grace was stressing that criticism was necessary. I was discussing that it leads to abuse and we should not abuse. It was all relevant. Grace was trying to use Hadith to prove soemthign bad about Muhammad. i tried to do the same about Jesus from the bible.

I did not quote outside the bible. It was all in the bbile. Only some people had closed their eyes to it. The best was to deny or explain those allegations. But instead they became hot and started discussing banning.

It is quite natural that the false people have short memory and they become hot very quickly. They cannot tolerate the truth for long.

Forgive me for writing what I did. I am sure that you people do not like the bad things of the bible to be told to you. Nobody would like that. You feel hurt very soon. But thenjust think of others feeling too. How they feel if their prophet is abused with filthy words. I would requets a warning to be issued to Grace too for having started a thread as “Quran and Christ”. But then slipped into hadith. Why he did that?

Those who are talking about banning should have discussed matters with grace or they should have left us two alone in our discussion. They were not addressed. I was having discussion with Grace only. Whythey came to support grace?
**

 

[R_not]

**There had been some discussion with GraceDk about criticism. Grace supported criticism. I did not. So very soon the result is coming out from few catholics about banning me. Why is that? Threatening??

Tell that to Grace. I do not like to criticise any one personally. But I will always look for weakness in the bibleNT in order to counter the false allegations against prophet Muhammad by Catholics. Otherwise I do not have any particular agenda against Jesus or the Jesus teachings. I do have an agenda against the imposters.**

But, then you are in direct conflict with your koran! But, the koran also is in conflict with itself! So, who to believe? One that has a message that has the same theme throughout or one that is in conflict with not only itself, but the one that it claims is the ‘truth of the Lord’? (I pick the Bible)

surah 10:94 Basically, it is telling the muslims to read the Bible - the ‘books before them’. He even says that it is ‘truth from our Lord’

 

[tomarin]

I am not interested in politics. I am interested in Truth. Jesus came to liberate man, not to make them slaves of new degrading systems of politics or religions.
If you want my honest oppinion I love our muslim population. In some ways they have something in common with me that the secular cculture does not. However, this does not mean that Islam is not a dangerous ideology.

You love everything about them but their religion. Unfortunately that’s a big part of their life, or at least it is for the people who take the religion seriously (the ones you don’t like/approve of).

To answer your question: I think Islam is first and foremost a religion, but I do think there is a fundamentalist strain of it that rejects modernity absolutely and prescribes as a political solution to every problem besetting Dar al Islam a return to some utopian Islamic past. I think that’s a dangerous ideology that needs to be opposed as forcefully as possible. But unlike you I don’t think it encapsulates all of what is Islam. This is where you and I part company, and why I suggest you may be stereotyping in order to achieve whatever your goals are.

You use the word stereotype again and again, but you havent backed it.

You mean proved to you that you do this? I’m not sure how to prove it. It seems self-evident to me that you are engaging in it on an almost constant basis.

It’s just one of those words people like to throw around.

No, it’s much more than that; it’s something that people frequently do to rationalize their actions. I think decent people have a duty to speak out against it when they see it.

Added: by the way, you are right that the poll results you cited are better evidence for your position than the anecdotes; they are quantifiable data at least. Polls are generally not taken too seriously but I would have to take a closer look at the poll to discuss it and when I do I’ll start a new thread for that discussion.

 

[GraceDK]

You love everything about them but their religion. Unfortunately that’s a big part of their life, or at least it is for the people who take the religion seriously (the ones you don’t like/approve of).

To answer your question: I think Islam is first and foremost a religion, but I do think there is a fundamentalist strain of it that rejects modernity absolutely and prescribes as a political solution to every problem besetting Dar al Islam a return to some utopian Islamic past. I think that’s a dangerous ideology that needs to be opposed as forcefully as possible. But unlike you I don’t think it encapsulates all of what is Islam. This is where you and I part company, and why I suggest you may be stereotyping in order to achieve whatever your goals are.

You mean proved to you that you do this? I’m not sure how to prove it. It seems self-evident to me that you are engaging in it on an almost constant basis.

No, it’s much more than that; it’s something that people frequently do to rationalize their actions. I think decent people have a duty to speak out against it when they see it.

Added: by the way, you are right that the poll results you cited are better evidence for your position than the anecdotes; they are quantifiable data at least. Polls are generally not taken too seriously but I would have to take a closer look at the poll to discuss it and when I do I’ll start a new thread for that discussion.

Alright.
So you dont believe that Sharia is an integrated part of Islam, as I understand you.
If that is the case, then I don’t think we will get any further with our discussion. You see I believe that there is only one source to look at in the end and that is the Quran… as long as one billion people think that this is the direct uncreated Word of God and the book says to wage war on Christians and Jews, and that we are cursed and should pay special taxes etc… I have a problem with that.
I believe Islam is a false religion holding people in chains and that it’s the duty of Christians to go and tell them about Christ. That they are fine where they are is an error of relativism and indifferent liberal theology.

I believe you should not talk to me anymore about this. You havent seen Muslim people standing on your city square and yell “Hail Hitler, slaughter the Jews!”

I recommend to you the inside sources like the books I have mentioned numerous times:

“Inside Islam: a Guide for Catholics”, by Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer. Former Muslim turned Catholic.
and
“Islam and Terrorism” by Mark A. Gabriel, Ph.D, professor in Cairo in Islams history until he became convinced of Christianity and took his Christian name.

Peace and good day.

 

[tomarin]

Alright.
So you dont believe that Sharia is an integrated part of Islam, as I understand you.
If that is the case, then I don’t think we will get any further with our discussion. You see I believe that there is only one source to look at in the end and that is the Quran… as long as one billion people think that this is the direct uncreated Word of God and the book says to wage war on Christians and Jews, and that we are cursed and should pay special taxes etc… I have a problem with that.

The Qu’ran says a lot of things, not all of them consistent with each other.

I believe Islam is a false religion holding people in chains and that it’s the duty of Christians to go and tell them about Christ. That they are fine where they are is an error of relativism and indifferent liberal theology.

We should tell everyone about Christ. But compared to atheists, at least Muslims are theists. Compared to Jews, at least Muslims hold Jesus and Mary in high esteem. Everyone around here seems to forget these things. Given the whole spectrum of belief, you could do worse than be a Muslim, I think.

I believe you should not talk to me anymore about this. You havent seen Muslim people standing on your city square and yell “Hail Hitler, slaughter the Jews!”

Even if Muslims were to do this, it doesn’t excuse us doing the same thing to them. If we are going to repeat the same thing over again with another alien, foreign group living amongst us, then can we say that we learned anthing from the Holocaust?

I recommend to you the inside sources like the books I have mentioned numerous times:

“Inside Islam: a Guide for Catholics”, by Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer. Former Muslim turned Catholic.
and
“Islam and Terrorism” by Mark A. Gabriel, Ph.D, professor in Cairo in Islams history until he became convinced of Christianity and took his Christian name.

Peace and good day.

I’ll check them out. I think I know what to expect from Spencer since I’ve looked at his webpage and he seems the “inspiration” for a lot of what I find disturbing around here. I don’t know the others, though. Thank you for the reading suggestions.

Peace of Christ,

Tomarin

 

[R_not]

Spencer always provides links to the original articles. All Spencer provides is the current news and if you don’t like his comments - just click on his links.

Most of the problems with Spencer’s news is that muslims don’t like to be held to any standards other than their own which isn’t very high. Oh, they can say it is higher than everyone else - but the morals of islam is very carnal, intolerant, and base.

 

[jakasaki]

You made me laugh!

Don’t forget, Paars also said that Mother Mary died in India and is buried there as well…

I told you guys and even posted that once on a thread that I think Paars was an undercover agent for India’s tourism… trying to promote India to the Christians by saying Christ and Mother Mary are buried there… … so we can all flock over there and boost their economy… .!!

 

[GraceDK]

**
dzhereme, there was nothing irrelevant in my posts. Grace was stressing that criticism was necessary. I was discussing that it leads to abuse and we should not abuse. It was all relevant. Grace was trying to use Hadith to prove soemthign bad about Muhammad. i tried to do the same about Jesus from the bible.

I did not quote outside the bible. It was all in the bbile. Only some people had closed their eyes to it. The best was to deny or explain those allegations. But instead they became hot and started discussing banning.

It is quite natural that the false people have short memory and they become hot very quickly. They cannot tolerate the truth for long.

Forgive me for writing what I did. I am sure that you people do not like the bad things of the bible to be told to you. Nobody would like that. You feel hurt very soon. But thenjust think of others feeling too. How they feel if their prophet is abused with filthy words. I would requets a warning to be issued to Grace too for having started a thread as “Quran and Christ”. But then slipped into hadith. Why he did that?

Those who are talking about banning should have discussed matters with grace or they should have left us two alone in our discussion. They were not addressed. I was having discussion with Grace only. Whythey came to support grace?
**

The difference between you and me is that I actually QUOTE Hadith and Koran. You quote nothing… you just summarize something you think you might have read or heard about the Bible sometime. But I dont recognise the stories that you “retell”.
If you wanna talk Bible then QUOTE it.
You yell ABUSE!!! but Islam is the ideology that urges violence and abuse of people of different faiths and of women. I have quoted your own Koran pointing it out. But you see no fault in it. You are the self-made-ever-victim.

 

[R_not]

This post is for you planten - please say what is bashing your prophet when your own texts seem full of it:

I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose allah and his apostle. koran 8:12

allah said, ‘No prophet before mohammed took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ mohammed said, ‘I was made
victorious with terror. the earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five priviledges were awarded to no prophet before me’. Ishaq 326

All the hoopla about mohammed being ‘persecuted’ in Mecca is just that - hoopla. It was far from being the truth.

Ishaq:130/Tabari VI:101 “'The nastiest thing I saw the Quraysh do to the Messenger occurred when their nobles assembled in the Hijr” [the standing place in the mosque of the Ka’aba]." They discussed Muhammad, saying, “We have never seen the kind of trouble we have endured from this fellow. He has derided our traditional values, declared our way of life foolish, abused and insulted our forefathers, reviled our religion, caused division among us, divided the community, and cursed our gods.”’"

Tabari VI:93 “The Quraysh went to Abu Talib and said, ‘Your nephew [Muhammad] has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values, and told us that our forefathers were misguided [and burning in hell]. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are as opposed to him as we are.’ They said, ‘We asked you to forbid your nephew from attacking us, but you did nothing. By Allah, we can no longer endure this vilification of our forefathers, this derision of our traditional values, and this abuse of our gods.’ This breach and enmity with his tribe weighed heavily on Talib. ‘Abu Talib, you are our elder and our chief, so give us justice against your nephew and order him to desist from reviling our gods, and we will leave him to his god.’”

This one I find particularly interesting since his own uncle asked mohammed to stop his harassment of others.

Tabari VI:95 “Abu Talib sent for Muhammad. ‘Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you. You should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god.’”

 

[planten]

**GraceDK, you did not quote anything from the Quran to abuse our prophet Muhammad. You took to the Hadith all the time. I told you not to criticize or abuse. But you were intent on doing that.

It is not my duty to quote everything from the bible unless you are totally ignorant about what is written in your bible. Bible is a small book and you must know about everything that is in the gospels. Otherwise you are not a Christian.

When I raised the objections and started my criticism, you wrote that you had not seen those things in bible. Why is that? Now that you have come back again, you have not explained anything about that valuable perfume that was put on the head and feet of Jesus. Search the bible and explain.

About the birth of Jesus, as it is said that he is the begotten son of God, please see Mathew 1 from beginning as shown below:

Matthew 1

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2Abraham begat** Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

And tell me how did God beget Jesus? Come to real sense of the word “beget”. Also tell me who were Phares and Zara of Thamar? Who was Thamar? Was she not the daughter (in law) of Judas? Whom Judas used to produce those two children? And they were the ancestors of Jesus? Is that true?

Then you raised objection to why Muhammad brought a new religion when there was Judaism and Christianity present in the world. I asked you why Jesus had to come and preach a new faith when Judaism of the fore-fathers of Jesus was already present in the world. You have not replied.

It seems when confronted with the truth you become upset very quickly. But you enjoy abusing others. I will look for the perfume business in the gospels and quote it for you if you cannot do a search for the illegal perfume in the gospels (forget the illegal). I am careful. I have not named any one yet.

I know that my posts are not liked by other catholics. They have serious objection to such things. But it is all due to your demand that criticism is necessary and should be from the proper books. So You have it now.

I am also unahppy about doing such things against the happiness of other Catholic friends. I hope I will refrain in future and change my line of action against you soon. There is no need to hurt every one just for the fault of one person.

 

[R_not]

**GraceDK, you did not quote anything from the Quran to abuse our prophet Muhammad. You took to the Hadith all the time. I told you not to criticize or abuse. But you were intent on doing that.

It is not my duty to quote everything from the bible unless you are totally ignorant about what is written in your bible. Bible is a small book and you must know about everything that is in the gospels. Otherwise you are not a Christian.

When I raised the objections and started my criticism, you wrote that you had not seen those things in bible. Why is that? Now that you have come back again, you have not explained anything about that valuable perfume that was put on the head and feet of Jesus. Search the bible and explain.

About the birth of Jesus, as it is said that he is the begotten son of God, please see Mathew 1 from beginning as shown below:

Matthew 1

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2Abraham begat** Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

And tell me how did God beget Jesus? Come to real sense of the word “beget”. Also tell me who were Phares and Zara of Thamar? Who was Thamar? Was she not the daughter (in law) of Judas? Whom Judas used to produce those two children? And they were the ancestors of Jesus? Is that true?

Then you raised objection to why Muhammad brought a new religion when there was Judaism and Christianity present in the world. I asked you why Jesus had to come and preach a new faith when Judaism of the fore-fathers of Jesus was already present in the world. You have not replied.

It seems when confronted with the truth you become upset very quickly. But you enjoy abusing others. I will look for the perfume business in the gospels and quote it for you if you cannot do a search for the illegal perfume in the gospels (forget the illegal). I am careful. I have not named any one yet.

I know that my posts are not liked by other catholics. They have serious objection to such things. But it is all due to your demand that criticism is necessary and should be from the proper books. So You have it now.

I am also unahppy about doing such things against the happiness of other Catholic friends. I hope I will refrain in future and change my line of action against you soon. There is no need to hurt every one just for the fault of one person.

Your quotes from the Bible are not even accurate.

Matt. 1:2
2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat JUDAH… NOT JUDAS, BUT JUDAH.

What in the heck is your point anyway?

If you read the Bible you would know why Jesus came - to fulfill the scriptures.

surah 10:94 Basically, it is telling the muslims to read the Bible - the ‘books before them’. He even says that it is ‘truth from our Lord’.

TO READ IT, NOT TO TRY TO DISTORT IT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSES. If you want to discuss the Bible then read it so as to discuss it, not to try to show us some half baked distortion. Instead of answering the question of this thread ’ Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?’ you try to divert attention to something else. Why don’t you start your own thread on things you don’t understand in the Bible? And don’t DEMAND that people answer your questions, try asking in a civil manner.

koran says Jesus is Lord and mohammed is Satan

(It is in Arabic)

 

[GraceDK]

**tomarin:
You love everything about them but their religion. Unfortunately that’s a big part of their life, or at least it is for the people who take the religion seriously (the ones you don’t like/approve of). **

In fact you are prejudiced against me. Its no easy task to critizise Islam. There are no people that I dont like, although there are some who through their recognizion of illogical and threatening ideologies, scare me somewhat.
Again I urge you to read the books I have recommended to you. Especially the one called “Inside Islam, a guide for Catholics” by Daniel Ali.
I find it interesting that I am quite in line with former Muslims and now Christian brothers… also in my “generelisations” but if they say something you believe them… you also believe they love their Muslim neighbour.

To answer your question: I think Islam is first and foremost a religion, but I do think there is a fundamentalist strain of it that rejects modernity absolutely and prescribes as a political solution to every problem besetting Dar al Islam a return to some utopian Islamic past. I think that’s a dangerous ideology that needs to be opposed as forcefully as possible. But unlike you I don’t think it encapsulates all of what is Islam. This is where you and I part company, and why I suggest you may be stereotyping in order to achieve whatever your goals are.

Whatever my goals are…oh don’t tell me… are you one of those conspiracy-guys? I hope not…Well, .It’s no secret. My goal is Jesus Christ in the heart of Muslims and secualists and nominal Christians too. What you fail to understand is that sharia and the hadith of example Sahih Bukhari are regarded with authority for Muslims. Bukhari is no mr. nice guy… His ahadith are however the most authoritatian of all sources after the Koran and are held as such by the majority of Muslims in the world (though not by Planten and Hadi who write on these threads).
As for me, don’t kill the messenger. I quote Hadith and Koran and say what incidents we see here soooo much in Europe and in the Middle East. Sometimes the truth is not welcome because its unpleasant… yet it needs to be told.

**You mean proved to you that you do this? I’m not sure how to prove it. It seems self-evident to me that you are engaging in it on an almost constant basis. **

But I could say the same to you. Not only do you judge me, you also assume something about Muslims which to me seems naive. I am not against Muslims. I do however realise that Islam taken seriously is a threat to freedom and human dignity as well as rational thinking.

No, it’s much more than that; it’s something that people frequently do to rationalize their actions. I think decent people have a duty to speak out against it when they see it.
Added: by the way, you are right that the poll results you cited are better evidence for your position than the anecdotes; they are quantifiable data at least. Polls are generally not taken too seriously but I would have to take a closer look at the poll to discuss it and when I do I’ll start a new thread for that discussion.

Do what you please, but I hope you keep studying. Only a few years ago I sounded just like you, but the more I get educated about Islam and muslim culture/ the mindset that comes with it, the more I think we must tell them about Jesus.
Also… dont close your eyes to our persecuted brethren all over the Muslim world. They dont need your eyes shut.

 

[GraceDK]

planten:
GraceDK, you did not quote anything from the Quran to abuse our prophet Muhammad. You took to the Hadith all the time. I told you not to criticize or abuse. But you were intent on doing that.

Interesting. I quote Hadith that are held as authority by the majority of the Muslims in the world and based on these quotations you say I abuse Muhammad…
Look, if you have a problem with these stories about him then talk to Bukhari and the other authors about it, alright. They lived close to Muhammad in time and they wrote down his actions. Not my fault if these actions are highly unpleasant to look at. I have also quoted Koran but you dont answer nor read my posts.

It is not my duty to quote everything from the bible unless you are totally ignorant about what is written in your bible. Bible is a small book and you must know about everything that is in the gospels. Otherwise you are not a Christian.

Actually the Bible is no small book. My Bible has 1360 pages with small print. I do know everything that is in the Gospels, which is why I immediately detect that you misquote and make your own fiction.

When I raised the objections and started my criticism, you wrote that you had not seen those things in bible. Why is that? Now that you have come back again, you have not explained anything about that valuable perfume that was put on the head and feet of Jesus. Search the bible and explain.

You are right. A woman came and put oil on Jesus. Somebody judged her and Jesus defended her. Another time a woman wept on his feet, again Jesus defended her. These women were sinners, just like you… yes, just like you. But Jesus drew them near with His compassion and love and purity. What you did was speak about illegal perfume and earrings which there is nothing about in the New Testament why you made your self look like a fool.

About the birth of Jesus, as it is said that he is the begotten son of God, please see Mathew 1 from beginning as shown below:
And tell me how did God beget Jesus? Come to real sense of the word “beget”. Also tell me who were Phares and Zara of Thamar? Who was Thamar? Was she not the daughter (in law) of Judas? Whom Judas used to produce those two children? And they were the ancestors of Jesus? Is that true?

Look, you have already been shown to your own embarrassment that you misunderstood the ancestor line of Jesus. Now let me point out something to you. In the Koran allah mixes up Maryam, sister of Moses and Aron, and Maryam, the mother of Jesus. He mixes these two women up as if they were one and the same woman although historically they lived thousands of years apart.
This proves again, that Muhammad was not knowlegable about history, science or religions and he projected this blazing ignorance onto his god, allah…
Its EMBARRASING for you and enough to undermine all of the Koran.

God the Father did not create Jesus, Jesus went forth from the Father before all time. thats the begetting we talk about. As for the Koran, it says Isa is the Spirit of God and that Mary was a virgin. This makes it apparent to all logic that you should either accept that Jesus is God… otherwise you say that your God has little pieces of himself foating around. Because how can the Spirit of God be seperated from and something else than God?

Then you raised objection to why Muhammad brought a new religion when there was Judaism and Christianity present in the world. I asked you why Jesus had to come and preach a new faith when Judaism of the fore-fathers of Jesus was already present in the world. You have not replied.

I have. He came to reconcile us to the Father. It’s foretold in the Old Testament that a perfect sacrifice must be made for sin.
Islam is cut off from covenant history and therefore does not grasp the meaning of Messiah… The original sin made it impossible for humans to come to God. Jesus is the one who heals that gap. He has been the sacrifice, took the punishment and atoned so we can be one with the Father too. Therefore He came, and therefore we are now children, while you are still slaves.

It seems when confronted with the truth you become upset very quickly. But you enjoy abusing others. I will look for the perfume business in the gospels and quote it for you if you cannot do a search for the illegal perfume in the gospels (forget the illegal). I am careful. I have not named any one yet.

Actually I am not upset at all. I have never been while debating with you. Why would I be? I pity you, but I am not upset. Christ is my Peace and I have no doubt about who He is. Why would I forget “the illegal”? because you were trowing around words with no foundation? My standard is Truth at all times and in all questions. Which is your standard?

** I know that my posts are not liked by other catholics. They have serious objection to such things. But it is all due to your demand that criticism is necessary and should be from the proper books. So You have it now.**

We must always question and critizise evil and injustice. Especially when its done by people who claim religious authority.

** I am also unahppy about doing such things against the happiness of other Catholic friends. I hope I will refrain in future and change my line of action against you soon. There is no need to hurt every one just for the fault of one person.**

Look Planten. You cannot hurt any of us. Our Lord is a Lord of Joy and He is in us and we are in Him. Our only grief is that your heart and mind is so darkened and hardened.

Salaam.

 

[sympathy07]

I think its not peaceful person because muslims increase terrorism. They don’t live under laws.