Are Muslims really the people of the Book?

[meedo]

talking about Answering-Islam

"In pre-Islamic times Ishmael was never mentioned as the Father of the Arabs." (W. Aliyyuddin Shareef, In response to Robert Morey’s Islamic Invasion, pp. 3-4;

The late Egyptian Professor, Dr. Taha Husayn, considered one of the foremost authorities on Arabic literature, while commenting on the story of Abraham and Ishmael building the Kabah, states:

“The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. **Islam exploited it for religious reasons.” **(As quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, p. 170 as found in Behind the Veil, p. 184, source;

… Ishmael is considered the progenitor of the Arabs. Dagon (1981) has shown that **this idea is an Islamic construction AND THAT NO CONNECTION BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND THE ARABS HAD EVER BEEN MADE IN THE PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD. **Already in the first Islamic century, however, Ishmael came to symbolize the Islamic Umma, and biblical passages about Ishmael were taken to refer to Muhammad, the Arabs, or the Muslim community. (Adang, p. 147, fn. 37: E.J. Brill Academic Publishers; August 1997 ISBN: 9004100342; bold and capital emphasis ours)

For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Ishmael, son of Abraham, than the French are of Francus, son of Hector. — Maxime Rodinson

It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mecca. — Montgomery Watt

According to Muslim tradition, Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, the cube-like structure in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca. But outside these traditions **there is absolutely no evidence for this claim - whether epigraphic, archaelogical, or documentary. **Indeed Snouck Hurgronje has shown that Muhammad invented the story to give his religion an Arabian origin and setting; with this brilliant improvisation Muhammad established the independence of his religion, at the same time incorporating into Islam the Kaaba with all its historical and religious associations for the Arabs. (Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim [Prometheus Books, Amherst NY 1995], p. 131; bold emphasis ours)

Finally, Islamicist Alfred Guillaume notes:

“… there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.” (Alfred Guillaume, Islam [Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956], pp. 61-62)

answering-islam.de/Main///Shamoun/ishmael.htm

Again. These are just words. Dont yoyu think if the arabs really believed that muhammed was fooling them they would have followed him?!

Btw . Taha Hussein is a Heretic and has said many things against the Quran that isnt true. he is a great novelist by some people but he loves fiction!!!

The rest of the commenst are just by some orientalists sitting at their homes.

The argument that i gave you is valid and correct. hwree are the ancestors of ishamel??

I have the kaba and i have all the people around the kaba to prove in concensus that It is well known that ishaem has lived there.

You briing SOLID PHYSICAL PROOF that he never been there.

There is no proof whatsoever that Abraham has never been to Mecca .

salam

 

[meedo]

I think there were jews before Moses. Jews were in relation with God before Moses. They just didn’t have the law. Moses was a prophet, Muhammed was not a prophet. Jesus was God incarnate.

I hope that clears some things up for you

No there was no Jews before moses. There was Israelites . They were not in relation to God except they were a decendant of a prophet called jacob who is decendant of isac. The majority worshipped the calv for Gods sake !!! and had to be killed!!

The Israelites were slaves under the Egyptians . They didnt have a prophet, a temple , Nothing whatsoever . Just generation after generation of slaves. and the Majority didnt go with moses because he believed he was causing them trouble with the Egyptians .

Muhammed was a prophet as much as moses was . Moses message was only to the people of israel. Muhammed message was to the world .

i hope i clarified some things for you

 

[meedo]

Ishmael buildind rocks…was he alone? how many years did it take him? no one noticed it? no one knew it? no one talked about it? no one asked what is this huge rock that Ismael is building? if it’s that important, and will later become Allah’s favourite place, then how come there is not mention, nothing, nothing, in pre-Islamic scriptures? as our Muslim friend Taha hussein said, it’s mere later invention.

ishamel Builot the Kaba with Abraham. eevery body noticed that was living in Mecca cause thats where ishmsael lived . Every body knew and all people talked about it. every body knew what was this huge rock and knew its importance and that its Gods house

Its mentioned in pre Islamic scripture in the story of Muhammeds Grand father who protected the kaba from Destruction by praying to Allah to protect his house of worship from the Ethipian king who wanted to destroy it. The arabs drew pictures of Abraham inside the Kaba. Unanimously the arabs at the time knew it was the house of God that Ishamel and Abraham built.

Thats why they are unanimous about it.

The arabs were most of them illiterate they woud memorize and pass hystory with memorizing . They ddnt have a scripture and you wouldnt find any writings at all because they didnt give writing an importance.

Taha Hussein is a heretic not a muslim. he is an arab linguist not a muslim scholar.

salam

 

[meedo]

if not mistaken,Muhammad started turning round the Kaaba before the so-called revelation that it was built by Ishmael…so why was he turning around it?

The pilgrimage from the time of abraham and this is not new only by islam . Ofcourse some arabs visitied palestine and later brought idols with them but Muhammeds hystory shows he never ever bowed to an idol nor offered sacrificed to it .

There were Monothiests before Muhammed who circled kaba as worship tpo God and not to idols. pilgrimage is not somthing invented by islam its somthing incorporated in Islam inherited from abraham

 

[inJESUS]

Again. These are just words. Dont yoyu think if the arabs really believed that muhammed was fooling them they would have followed him?!

flawed argument. Don’t you think if Pakistani really believed that Ghulam Ahmad was fooling them they would have followed him? well Pakistani did not know.

Btw . Taha Hussein is a Heretic and has said many things against the Quran that isnt true. he is a great novelist by some people but he loves fiction!!!

 

[meedo]

You guys keep talking about this Kaba and I’m waiting for Meedo and so is Irishmac for him to explain if they worship it or venerate it or what they do when they face it to pray??

He says they dont worship it. But he does not explain it so why did Ismeal waste his time building that rock?

same as solomon wasted his time building the temple!!! what a question demascus. We doint worship it. we pray to its direction . But its only a direction . we pray to god. The kaba has bo special powers or any thing anf if one worships it then he is doomed toi hell eternally!!!

 

[meedo]

flawed argument. Don’t you think if Pakistani really believed that Ghulam Ahmad was fooling them they would have followed him? well Pakistani did not know.

 

[Damascus]

same as solomon wasted his time building the temple!!! what a question demascus. We doint worship it. we pray to its direction . But its only a direction . we pray to god. The kaba has bo special powers or any thing anf if one worships it then he is doomed toi hell eternally!!!

Not the same as the Temple. Are you worshiping inside this rock?

How can the rock direct you? you mean focus you?

Is it an Aniconic Image of God? IF not what did Ishmeal want you to do with it ? Where is his wishes to do with this rock written?

 

[inJESUS]

The pilgrimage from the time of abraham and this is not new only by islam . Ofcourse some arabs visitied palestine and later brought idols with them but Muhammeds hystory shows he never ever bowed to an idol nor offered sacrificed to it .

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah’s Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah’s Apostle presented a dish of meat to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said “I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stone altars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned on slaughtering.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 7:407)

There were Monothiests before Muhammed who circled kaba as worship tpo God and not to idols. pilgrimage is not somthing invented by islam its somthing incorporated in Islam inherited from abraham

 

[inJESUS]

ishamel Builot the Kaba with Abraham. eevery body noticed that was living in Mecca cause thats where ishmsael lived . Every body knew and all people talked about it. every body knew what was this huge rock and knew its importance and that its Gods house

everybody??? Abraham lived THOUSANDS of years before Muhammad. How come NO ONE from these “everybody” you are talking about recorded it? NO ONE BEFORE ISLAM…NO ONE IN THOUSANDS OF YEARS…NO JEW !!

Its mentioned in pre Islamic scripture in the story of Muhammeds Grand father who protected the kaba from Destruction by praying to Allah to protect his house of worship from the Ethipian king who wanted to destroy it. The arabs drew pictures of Abraham inside the Kaba. Unanimously the arabs at the time knew it was the house of God that Ishamel and Abraham built.

 

[inJESUS]

same as solomon wasted his time building the temple!!!

it is recorded !! everybody knows about it !! how come Allah’s house is mentioned NOWHERE but in islamic traditions written by muslims??

. But its only a direction . we pray to god.

 

[inJESUS]

we are talking about a book written BEFORE Muhammad was born by hundreds if not thousands of years. NO MENTION WHATSOEVER OF SUCH A GREAT THING AS BUILDING GOD’S HOUSE!!! hundreds and thousands of scriptures, divine and not divine, historical and none historical, HUNDREDS OF RABBINAL WRITINGS, NOTHING MENTIONS THE BUILDING OF ABRAHAM neither in divine books nor historical books!!! IS IT POSSIBLE THAT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NO ONE WROTE OF ABRAHAM BUILDING GOD’S HOUSE??? WHERE ARE THE JEWS??? WHERE ARE NON-JEWS??? WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS?? IT’S ABRAHAM BUILDING GOD’S HOUSE !!!

The Hystorians have no physical evidence other than the words of a book written by nmen called the bible that abraham never been to Mecca.

i don’t think you will teach historians their work. Historians do not rely on the Bible but on EVERY OTHER PROOF WHICH IS NOT FOUND !! NONE !!

I have a Huge nation with a building and a huge tradition IN ADDITION to a book of God saying that he has been there.

ALL WRITTEN BY ONLY MUSLIMS AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS !! how come non-Muslims recorded nothing of Abraham building God’s house???

I win. You dont have any solid Physical proof to prove me wrong . You are not citing any muslim except a known heretic and some orientalists who base their knowledge on the bible. which is again is just words .

the one who said no pre-islamic proof is Muslim, The rests agree…and no historian will rely on the Bible alone who are you kidding?

 

[Damascus]

I think the Allah spirit or this rock (Image of God) is covered with the silk so that they dont see Allahs face.

 

[inJESUS]

ana mesh bathaggem ya in jesus ana bass barud aleik. Enta 3aref kewayes in ana mesh akhla2ee kedah .

 

[meedo]

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah’s Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah’s Apostle presented a dish of meat to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said “I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stone altars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned on slaughtering.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 7:407)

 

[meedo]

everybody??? Abraham lived THOUSANDS of years before Muhammad. How come NO ONE from these “everybody” you are talking about recorded it? NO ONE BEFORE ISLAM…NO ONE IN THOUSANDS OF YEARS…NO JEW !!

 

[StMarkEofE]

talking about Answering-Islam

"In pre-Islamic times Ishmael was never mentioned as the Father of the Arabs." (W. Aliyyuddin Shareef, In response to Robert Morey’s Islamic Invasion, pp. 3-4;

The late Egyptian Professor, Dr. Taha Husayn, considered one of the foremost authorities on Arabic literature, while commenting on the story of Abraham and Ishmael building the Kabah, states:

“The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. **Islam exploited it for religious reasons.” **(As quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, p. 170 as found in Behind the Veil, p. 184, source;

… Ishmael is considered the progenitor of the Arabs. Dagon (1981) has shown that **this idea is an Islamic construction AND THAT NO CONNECTION BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND THE ARABS HAD EVER BEEN MADE IN THE PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD. **Already in the first Islamic century, however, Ishmael came to symbolize the Islamic Umma, and biblical passages about Ishmael were taken to refer to Muhammad, the Arabs, or the Muslim community. (Adang, p. 147, fn. 37: E.J. Brill Academic Publishers; August 1997 ISBN: 9004100342; bold and capital emphasis ours)

For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Ishmael, son of Abraham, than the French are of Francus, son of Hector. — Maxime Rodinson

It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mecca. — Montgomery Watt

According to Muslim tradition, Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, the cube-like structure in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca. But outside these traditions **there is absolutely no evidence for this claim - whether epigraphic, archaelogical, or documentary. **Indeed Snouck Hurgronje has shown that Muhammad invented the story to give his religion an Arabian origin and setting; with this brilliant improvisation Muhammad established the independence of his religion, at the same time incorporating into Islam the Kaaba with all its historical and religious associations for the Arabs. (Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim [Prometheus Books, Amherst NY 1995], p. 131; bold emphasis ours)

Finally, Islamicist Alfred Guillaume notes:

“… there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.” (Alfred Guillaume, Islam [Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956], pp. 61-62)

answering-islam.de/Main///Shamoun/ishmael.htm

inJesus, you are coming up with some high powered info here. This is a keeper.

 

[inJESUS]

Meedo, there are many ahadith that prove my point…i just quoted one…anyway, am not of those who believe Muhammad was pagan. The book explains this as well.

 

[meedo]

it is recorded !! everybody knows about it !! how come Allah’s house is mentioned NOWHERE but in islamic traditions written by muslims??

 

[Damascus]

IF Meedo is going to pull this “curropted Bible” stuff again, tell me Meedo where is the word Tahrif in connection with mention to our Scriptures huh?

Allah did not think so. You’d better be wise and think about Allah telling you to consult the people of the book on Scripture since Koran tells you to and you dont listen to your Allah!

Allah knows all and he would not tell you to ask about our scriptures if (since he knows all) he would have KNOWN they would be courrupted.

So which is it Meedo? Allah lied or Scripture corrupt?