Are Native American "Dreamcatchers" Evil?

[Renton405]

Hmmm, by reading your post it doesn’t sound like you know a whole lot about American Idians.

I used to live by a reservation… And all i saw was drinking and violence and gangs. My car was stolen and my house broken into… its a horrible thing to say what I saw?? I was just warning someone that some reservations are very dangerous…

And yes… American Indian “religion” and ceremonies would be defined as heresy by the church… you disagree with that?

 

[child_of_God85]

I used to live by a reservation… And all i saw was drinking and violence and gangs. My car was stolen and my house broken into… its a horrible thing to say what I saw?? I was just warning someone that some reservations are very dangerous…

And yes… American Indian “religion” and ceremonies would be defined as heresy by the church… you disagree with that?

Yes, I do disagree with calling American Indians heretics. It isn’t the same as pagans and atheists. Read Br. Joshephs posts, he explains it very well.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Blessings to all. I am Bro. Joshua. I really like this forum. The issue on Dream Catchers amazes me that it could go on and on so.

I think it is a good idea not to bother with the trappings of another culture if you are suspicious of the traditions. Personaly, I don’t think it a good idea when some folks make a novelty of my culture as is done many times with these Spider Webs (dream catchers) and with the traditional sacred symbols of ours used in racist sports mascots and logos.

Hi just wondering I have not heard that the dream catcher has another meaning, you are indicating that it does, is there a web site that we could learn the meaning? Or do you feel its not worth sharing?? I always believe that with understanding people can build better bridges. If you are willing would you mind posting?? If not then fine too.

---

And if I could while we are on the subject of “objects” I have a little stuffed Kokopelli. My friend had told me at the time that it was a god and I should not have it. I do not worship it, it reminds me of Arizona and the desert and its beauty. I love that place, I am never so calm than when Im there.

Anyway what does everyone say about this Kokopelli, Im thinking my friends nuts?? Seriously it bothers me. And Im not gonna bring up that even those around Page dont know who or what exactly Kokopelli is, because hes from a lost civilization if that helps.

 

[st_lucy]

I used to live by a reservation… And all i saw was drinking and violence and gangs. My car was stolen and my house broken into… its a horrible thing to say what I saw?? I was just warning someone that some reservations are very dangerous…

And yes… American Indian “religion” and ceremonies would be defined as heresy by the church… you disagree with that?

I am guessing you have never been to a reservation that has a very strong Catholic religion. Well, I grew up with such Indians and I can tell you from my experience these people are VERY catholic. They still hold dear to their old traditions but have incorporated it to the Catholic religion.

If you to look at most (at least those I have known) of the native religion you would see that it is very close to the Catholic faith. You see God is so good, he prepared these dear people of His for their true faith. Have you ever heard of how so many Indians in Mexico were converted just by looking at a picture of women?

It greatly saddens me to here such hatred and labeling on a group of people. A group of people who have embraced the Catholic religion so easily.

I see that you mention how the people living in reservation have stolen from you. I wonder if you have ever stopped to see how these fellow Americans, these neighbors, these brothers of yours are living? In most these reservation they live in such poverty that it should shame any human to realize that there are people who living in what is considered third world conditions right in our own back yard.

As for the history of the Dream Catcher here is one website that I skimmed over and it looks good.

dream-catchers.org/dream-catchers-ojibwe.php

But I must add, that it is hard for us as modern day Americans to know the exact truth of the Native Americans history and religious practices. It has become a fad to adapt Native American traditions. SO much so that those who try to package it up in a nice little package have no idea of the truth behind what they are selling. And even more surprising most of the time it is being made and sold by Anglo-Americans.

 

[Renton405]

Yes, I do disagree with calling American Indians heretics. It isn’t the same as pagans and atheists. Read Br. Joshephs posts, he explains it very well.

Its just another form of paganism and necromancy, there is aboslutly NOTHING that is Catholic about it… The early church fathers would disagree with you… They were very stern that anyone who worshipped idols or did ritualistic ceremonies was a heretic…St. Thomas More had no problem calling such as heretics and I don’t either…

And no Lucy… Mixing Indian traditions with Catholicism would be heresy too… You can’t mix oil with water… The gnostics tried to mix some paganism in with the church too and you see how hard the ECF came down on them… I can’t even believe someone would even support this dreamcatcher heresy on a catholic forum and put souls at risk…

 

[child_of_God85]

Its just another form of paganism and necromancy, there is aboslutly NOTHING that is Catholic about it… The early church fathers would disagree with you… They were very stern that anyone who worshipped idols or did ritualistic ceremonies was a heretic…St. Thomas More had no problem calling such as heretics and I don’t either…

And no Lucy… Mixing Indian traditions with Catholicism would be heresy too… You can’t mix oil with water… The gnostics tried to mix some paganism in with the church too and you see how hard the ECF came down on them… I can’t even believe someone would even support this dreamcatcher heresy on a catholic forum and put souls at risk…

I can’t believe anyone who calls themselves Catholic would spout such hatred for a culture of people.
Pope John Paul II came out and appologized for the actions of some of the Church fathers. Some of the church father were not right in the things they condemned, in fact some of the actions they took were evil.
How can American Indians be labled heretics when those were the only practices they knew. No one taught them about Catholicism or Christianity. They worshipped God the way they saw fit. Maybe thats the way God taught them to worship him.
Really, it’s like reliving the old west hatred of American Indians talking to you.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

I had been trying to issue an appology at different times today but my computer acted up (probably because some of the technologies of forums and threads is new to me). I responded to the wrong person earlier. I think I responded to the person identified as Child of God – but for a remark made by another person’s entry. My appologies to all that may have been affected.

One person is hurting becasue he (or she - I am not certain of the identity) lived near a Rez and had some bad experiences. I hope the person can commit the situation(s) to contemplation and prayer. It is not easy to over come having a car stollen. I don’t know details, but such an experience can also have many dangers involved.

Please understand that violations are felt by all people and all cultures. It is unfair to blame all persons of another culture for a serious or common violation committed by a few or by many. I have been rebuffed in large or minor ways by one or more persons of so many different cultures, I’d never have any peace in this life if I turned against so many different cultures. I think many of us can say similar for themselves.

I don’t know how many are familiar with the American Indian Termination and Relocation laws of 1948-71. That is rather recent history. I was born in 1951, so I grew up with this. I love this country, even though they thought I should have been terminated.

I sincerly feel bad for the person who had a car taken away and for anything else they may have suffered. Please commit it to contemplation and find a way to over come this. About half of the Native kids born between 1948-71 died as a result of the Termination and Relocation policy. We had to get over this.

These were my relatives and play mates and peers. Its very sad. So many beautiful young faces died because food, medicine and heating fuels were withheld, or they faced such violence in the places they were forcibly removed to. Still, we got to find ways to forgive, to live because no matter what is the case for good or for bad - we are all related.

I am strong - or I try to be strong in faith. I was told many times that I cannot be Catholic and Native, or I cannot be Native and belong to a Religious Order. I pray for those people who think that. I have taken a 4th vow of obedience to the Pope and Magisterium. The Pope says I can be Native and Catholic, Native and a Religious Brother. So, I know I am on the right track - even if I don’t run as well as I should, or do as well as I should. But - I have been taught to take responcibility for what I say or do.

I take responcibility for responding to the wrong person and I ask forgiveness. I know it can hurt a lot when you have done the right thing and spoke well, just to have a person make an error as I did. For that I am very sorry and I admire the patience and kind words of that person on this forum who showed great patience for my blundering.

So much has improved and has gotten better over the years. But, from time to time we are reminded that there is still a lot of work to do. We are God’s children and thus relatives to one another.

 

[RhyannaRose]

<<< Yes, any type of American Indian “religion” or culture is a heresy and should be avoided… Many have very pagan-like worship(worshipping animals, wolves) and occult type ceremonies… There is also a saftey issue because many Reservations have very high crime rates and high alcoholism… >>>

Wow…just…wow.

I feel a little offended here, seeing as both of my Great Grandmothers (one on the maternal side, one on the paternal) were full blooded Native Americans. The one from the maternal side of my geneology was a devout Christian and is responsible for bringing my mother to Jesus.

I do agree that the new age movement is deceptively trying to push itself off as safe when it is really a dangerous thing and should be avoided. However, I think it’s important to note that the real Native Americans were not new agey and have had their practices watered down and sugar coated by the “love and light” movement.

Many, many Native Americans or partial Native Amercians are Christians, just like my great grandmother. And I feel they should be allowed to continue their cultural practices that DO NOT conflict with Christian theology.

And as for your last sentence…what? What does the high crime and alcohol rate on reservations have to do with whether it’s okay or not to have a dreamcatcher in your own? Cultural sterotype much?

 

[Nick]

In the AAA forum it says that labyrinth’s aren’t necessarily bad.

 

[child_of_God85]

I had been trying to issue an appology at different times today but my computer acted up (probably because some of the technologies of forums and threads is new to me). I responded to the wrong person earlier. I think I responded to the person identified as Child of God – but for a remark made by another person’s entry. My appologies to all that may have been affected.

One person is hurting becasue he (or she - I am not certain of the identity) lived near a Rez and had some bad experiences. I hope the person can commit the situation(s) to contemplation and prayer. It is not easy to over come having a car stollen. I don’t know details, but such an experience can also have many dangers involved.

Please understand that violations are felt by all people and all cultures. It is unfair to blame all persons of another culture for a serious or common violation committed by a few or by many. I have been rebuffed in large or minor ways by one or more persons of so many different cultures, I’d never have any peace in this life if I turned against so many different cultures. I think many of us can say similar for themselves.

I don’t know how many are familiar with the American Indian Termination and Relocation laws of 1948-71. That is rather recent history. I was born in 1951, so I grew up with this. I love this country, even though they thought I should have been terminated.

I sincerly feel bad for the person who had a car taken away and for anything else they may have suffered. Please commit it to contemplation and find a way to over come this. About half of the Native kids born between 1948-71 died as a result of the Termination and Relocation policy. We had to get over this.

These were my relatives and play mates and peers. Its very sad. So many beautiful young faces died because food, medicine and heating fuels were withheld, or they faced such violence in the places they were forcibly removed to. Still, we got to find ways to forgive, to live because no matter what is the case for good or for bad - we are all related.

I am strong - or I try to be strong in faith. I was told many times that I cannot be Catholic and Native, or I cannot be Native and belong to a Religious Order. I pray for those people who think that. I have taken a 4th vow of obedience to the Pope and Magisterium. The Pope says I can be Native and Catholic, Native and a Religious Brother. So, I know I am on the right track - even if I don’t run as well as I should, or do as well as I should. But - I have been taught to take responcibility for what I say or do.

I take responcibility for responding to the wrong person and I ask forgiveness. I know it can hurt a lot when you have done the right thing and spoke well, just to have a person make an error as I did. For that I am very sorry and I admire the patience and kind words of that person on this forum who showed great patience for my blundering.

So much has improved and has gotten better over the years. But, from time to time we are reminded that there is still a lot of work to do. We are God’s children and thus relatives to one another.

Theres no need to ask for forgiveness, these forums can be confusing and it was an honest mistake.
I’d never heard of the Termination and Relocation policy. It’s disgustin to think that something that barbaric took place so few years ago.
It really kills me to think of the horrid acts that have been committed against the American Indians over the years. It’s truely enough to make a person cry.

 

[mmortal03]

So, I take it you do not decorate easter eggs, celebrate easter under that name (both derived directly from Eoster, a pagan spring holiday), have Christmas trees nor wreaths, decorate with holly and mistletoe (both from Germanic pagan midwinter celebrations), use several of the modern month names (January is from Janus, June from Juno, July from Julius, August from Augustus), use the days of the week (Monday=Moondaeg, Tuesday=Tiewsdaeg, Wednesday=Wotansdaeg, Thursday=Thorsdaeg, Friday=Friggdaeg or Freysdaeg, Saturday= Saturns Day, Sunday= Sun’s Day).

These are all pagan inheritances that are incorporated over the centuries into both east and west (to varying degrees).

Yep, and also, see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercultural_competence .

 

[MaryKay]

Hello,

To the person (sorry I forgot your name) regarding the dreamcatchers. You mentioned that you have received this item in the mail, well I got one too awhile back and my daughter (14yrs) really liked it. So as I was looking it over and turn it over to discover the “made in China” sticker; I couldn’t help but to laugh.

Native American — made in China — don’t think so.

So my daughter Katie kept it to hang in her room because there are pretty and I kept my money.

I was not going to make a contribution to a company that was not being true to its native heritage.

I don’t think dreamcatchers are “evil” they are a great decoration and would go well with your SouthWestern decor.

Take Care and have a great day.
MaryKay

 

[MaryKay]

Hello,

To the person (sorry I forgot your name) regarding the dreamcatchers. You mentioned that you have received this item in the mail, well I got one too awhile back and my daughter (14yrs) really liked it. So as I was looking it over and turn it over to discover the “made in China” sticker; I couldn’t help but to laugh.

Native American — made in China — don’t think so.

So my daughter Katie kept it to hang in her room because there are pretty and I kept my money.

I was not going to make a contribution to a company that was not being true to its native heritage.

I don’t think dreamcatchers are “evil” they are a great decoration and would go well with your SouthWestern decor.

Take Care and have a great day.
MaryKay

 

[Renton405]

I can’t believe anyone who calls themselves Catholic would spout such hatred for a culture of people.
Pope John Paul II came out and appologized for the actions of some of the Church fathers. Some of the church father were not right in the things they condemned, in fact some of the actions they took were evil.
How can American Indians be labled heretics when those were the only practices they knew. No one taught them about Catholicism or Christianity. They worshipped God the way they saw fit. Maybe thats the way God taught them to worship him.
Really, it’s like reliving the old west hatred of American Indians talking to you.

Oh jeez there goes the prejudice card again… I think heresy is all the same, it just is shrouded in a different form , but it still is heresy… Pagan, Witchcraft, Shamans, Wicca, Voodoo, etc…

Having this dreamcatcher thing is no different than having a tarot deck or ouji board. They all go into mysticism and paganism…Thus is it a heresy…

And its always BOTH sides that are bad to each other. There were just as many white people butchered by indians too in the wars… Its is not a one-sided deal, there have been many innocent people that have been tortured and scalped to death too…Joshua have you heard of the Enoch Brown school massacre??

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Brown_school_massacre

*The Enoch Brown school massacre was a notorious incident in Pontiac’s Rebellion. On July 26, 1764, four Delaware (Lenape) American Indian warriors entered a log schoolhouse of white settlers in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present Greencastle. Inside were the schoolmaster, Enoch Brown, and twelve young students. Brown pleaded with the warriors to spare the children before being shot and scalped. The warriors then began to tomahawk and scalp the children, killing nine or ten of them (reports vary). Two children who had been scalped survived.

A day earlier, the warriors also encountered a pregnant woman, Susan King Cunningham, on the road. She was beaten to death, scalped, and the fetus was cut out of her body and placed next to her.

Incidents such as these prompted the Pennsylvania Assembly to reintroduce the scalp bounties previously offered during the French and Indian War, which paid money for every American Indian killed above the age of ten, including women. The bounty was approved by Governor John Penn.

 

[RobinTruett]

Anyway, the best thing to do would to be to forsake the dreamcatcher and put a rosary or crucifix above the bed. It would be best to repel evil (or evil dreams) rather than to catch them.

good thought, I think I’ll take down the one I have in my bathroom and replace it with a Rosary, maybe,… bathroom? …may a nice picture. Anyways I believe what Johnette Bankavik say to just not bring anything like that into our homes, to not even give satan a pin hole to come into our lives. There’s to much of minimizing things by saying it’s just decoration, a game, good exercize.

 

[Julianna]

Oh jeez there goes the prejudice card again… I think heresy is all the same, it just is shrouded in a different form , but it still is heresy… Pagan, Witchcraft, Shamans, Wicca, Voodoo, etc…

Having this dreamcatcher thing is no different than having a tarot deck or ouji board. Well call the Vatican Police, I have one. It is a craft my daughter made when she was in CATHOLIC school.They all go into mysticism and paganism…Thus is it a heresy… Muchado about nothing.

And its always BOTH sides that are bad to each other. There were just as many white people butchered by indians too in the wars…I think it was the taking over their land that ruffled their feathers a bit (no pun intended), it would be like a group of people show up at your door and tell you to leave your home it is now belongs to them. Its is not a one-sided deal, there have been many innocent people that have been tortured and scalped to death too…Joshua have you heard of the Enoch Brown school massacre??

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Brown_school_massacre

*The Enoch Brown school massacre was a notorious incident in Pontiac’s Rebellion. On July 26, 1764, four Delaware (Lenape) American Indian warriors entered a log schoolhouse of white settlers in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present Greencastle. Inside were the schoolmaster, Enoch Brown, and twelve young students. Brown pleaded with the warriors to spare the children before being shot and scalped. The warriors then began to tomahawk and scalp the children, killing nine or ten of them (reports vary). Two children who had been scalped survived.

A day earlier, the warriors also encountered a pregnant woman, Susan King Cunningham, on the road. She was beaten to death, scalped, and the fetus was cut out of her body and placed next to her.

Incidents such as these prompted the Pennsylvania Assembly to reintroduce the scalp bounties previously offered during the French and Indian War, which paid money for every American Indian killed above the age of ten, including women. The bounty was approved by Governor John Penn.

You have sprayed this thread so liberally with your piousness, I believe I need to take anti-histimine to ward off it’s attack. I wouldn’t go as far to say you are prejudice…pious works better here. You have your opinions…others have theirs.

 

[marybee]

good thought, I think I’ll take down the one I have in my bathroom and replace it with a Rosary, maybe,… bathroom? …may a nice picture. Anyways I believe what Johnette Bankavik say to just not bring anything like that into our homes, to not even give satan a pin hole to come into our lives. There’s to much of minimizing things by saying it’s just decoration, a game, good exercize.

IMHO-Johnette takes things off the deep end sometimes. I like her messages they are good, but sometimes she makes a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[kinja]

Laughs heheh dream catcher are crazy the church would never support such silly superstition…Looks over at the Gargoyle I got at Notre Dame. Wait a second…:

Dont be so quick to call another belief evil or superstitous. It may not be Catholic, but the church has picked up many Pagan beliefs over the years and Christianized them. ie Christmas tree, wedding rings, Holiday days, and even Saints that seemed to gain a certian similiarity to pagan Gods over time in the aid to convert.

Whatever pagan objects or traditions the church has decided to adopt it has done so in order that they would not be leaving the indegenous converts from non-christian faiths with no culture whatsoever after conversion. These acts by the clergy do not justify christians who have not grown up in these cultures taking up these pagan practices. That is going out of your way looking for trouble i think.

 

[Lori_Welch]

This caught my eye because I recently received an adorable dream catcher key chain from a charity organization. The organization is St. Josephs Indian School in Chamberlain SD. This organization is owned and operated by the congregation of the Priests of the Sacred Heart (SCJ) a world-wide congregration of Priests, Brothers and Deacons.

The fundraising letter is signed by Father Stephen Huffstetter, SCJ who is the Director. Some excerpts from the letter include: “You could be a dreamcatcher. The Lakota (Sioux) believe good dreams and nightmares float in the air and a special willow frame strung with sinew can screen out nighmares & let only good dreams pass thorough the center hole. They call the ornament a dreamcatcher and put one in every tipi and on the cradle board of every baby. Unfortunately, there aren’t many good dreams left for the Lakota people”.

(goes on to site statictics on how poor they are, after once being so proud and strong…).

Since 1927 (80 years!), St. Joseph’s Indian School has cared for Lakota children (explains some of the benefits and situations). They come here to receive an education and build a new future for themselves and the Lakota people.

(a bit of story about walking through the homes on site and watching the children sleeping…). As we watched the children sleeping, I though about the Lakota dreamcatcher and the important role you play in ensuring our youngsters have positive dreams filled with thoughts of bright futures (more about saving them from poverty and despair).

Your generosity brings them good dreams of bright futures as well-educated young adults with a purpose & strong values. You could be their dreamcatcher!

Because so many of our friends are interested in Lakota traditions, I’ve enclosed a card and gift featuring the Lakota dreamcatcher. This is our special gift to you just for thinking about the children at St. Joseph’s today."
Father Steve

I am part Native American (although not Lakota) - and also a cradle Catholic. When receiving this dreamcatcher I immediately did my research into St. Joseph’s and found it to be a worthy ministry. Check them out at: stjo.org

I put my trust in Father Steve Huffstetter and the 80 years of work they have been humbly doing for the Lakota people at St. Joseph’s. My dreamcatcher will always be a reminder of children all over the world, of every culture, that need our support and prayers. There is no evil in any of this.

 

[kinja]

This caught my eye because I recently received an adorable dream catcher key chain from a charity organization. The organization is St. Josephs Indian School in Chamberlain SD. This organization is owned and operated by the congregation of the Priests of the Sacred Heart (SCJ) a world-wide congregration of Priests, Brothers and Deacons.

The fundraising letter is signed by Father Stephen Huffstetter, SCJ who is the Director. Some excerpts from the letter include: “You could be a dreamcatcher. The Lakota (Sioux) believe good dreams and nightmares float in the air and a special willow frame strung with sinew can screen out nighmares & let only good dreams pass thorough the center hole. They call the ornament a dreamcatcher and put one in every tipi and on the cradle board of every baby. Unfortunately, there aren’t many good dreams left for the Lakota people”.

(goes on to site statictics on how poor they are, after once being so proud and strong…).

Since 1927 (80 years!), St. Joseph’s Indian School has cared for Lakota children (explains some of the benefits and situations). They come here to receive an education and build a new future for themselves and the Lakota people.

(a bit of story about walking through the homes on site and watching the children sleeping…). As we watched the children sleeping, I though about the Lakota dreamcatcher and the important role you play in ensuring our youngsters have positive dreams filled with thoughts of bright futures (more about saving them from poverty and despair).

Your generosity brings them good dreams of bright futures as well-educated young adults with a purpose & strong values. You could be their dreamcatcher!

Because so many of our friends are interested in Lakota traditions, I’ve enclosed a card and gift featuring the Lakota dreamcatcher. This is our special gift to you just for thinking about the children at St. Joseph’s today."
Father Steve

I am part Native American (although not Lakota) - and also a cradle Catholic. When receiving this dreamcatcher I immediately did my research into St. Joseph’s and found it to be a worthy ministry. Check them out at: stjo.org

I put my trust in Father Steve Huffstetter and the 80 years of work they have been humbly doing for the Lakota people at St. Joseph’s. My dreamcatcher will always be a reminder of children all over the world, of every culture, that need our support and prayers. There is no evil in any of this.

While I applaud the effort and support it fully, I do not agree with the promotion or distribution of any item which for some has spiritual connotations. Apart from this being negligent on the part of a saved person, I believe that it can also lead other believers (and those on the side lines as well) astray. They may get drawn to the pagan rituals and practices for which the article was created. This often happens epecially with the appeal that the secular world endows in the occult these days.

Scripture says that the truth is enough. So then let it be so and let us proclaim and practice truth and not be sidetracked and enticed by things which are of no real value to God.