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goout
Guest
Let me know when you want to talk about willful ignorance. The kind that doesn’t accept magisterial teaching.
Poison.
Poison.
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StAugustine
Guest
What if they don’t receive the ultimate supernatural good which the natural good they have in their life is preparing them for?
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goout
Guest
Did you read Lumen Gentium yet?What if they don’t receive the ultimate supernatural good which the natural good they have in their life is preparing them for?
here it is:
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
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StAugustine
Guest
Yes, I know I see, it’s all a preparation, but it is not accomplished until reception.
But if there is no reception?
But if there is no reception?
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goout
Guest
ask God when you see him. Ask him about willful ignorance while your’e at it. In the meantime, this is what Lumen Gentium says about those ignorant of the Gospel.Yes, I know I see, it’s all a preparation, but it is not accomplished until reception.
But if there is no reception?
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
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StAugustine
Guest
Yes, they are being prepared by God to receive the gospel, as Lumen Gentium says, and all those wonderful parts of their false religion function as a preparation! Glory to God for his mercy and loving kindness to humanity by allowing even the pagans to arrive at a chance of obtaining faith.
In fact, God loves man so much that he will go to great lengths to make sure that those who live according to their conscience don’t die without faith, as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches in de Veritate-
“1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).”
The source is here-
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/QDdeVer14.htm
See how they go from the ignorance of
Unbelief to the illumination of faith? All Lumen Gentium is saying is that the good found in other religions is a preparation for THIS.
In fact, God loves man so much that he will go to great lengths to make sure that those who live according to their conscience don’t die without faith, as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches in de Veritate-
“1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).”
The source is here-
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/QDdeVer14.htm
See how they go from the ignorance of
Unbelief to the illumination of faith? All Lumen Gentium is saying is that the good found in other religions is a preparation for THIS.
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goout
Guest
This is what Lumen Gentium actually says. (sometimes it’s good to just listen to the Church…)
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
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deMontfort
Guest
Sigh. I would just point out that the Magisterium is the final authority over theological matters within the Church NOT Thomas Aquinas. If the official teaching of the Church conflicts with Aquinas, then Aquinas loses. It’s as simple as that. The bottom line is that Thomism is one of a number of theological schools of thought that are acceptable to hold within the Church, but it is not in and of itself the official teaching of the Church.
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StAugustine
Guest
I agree with Lumen Gentium, you’re distorting it by thinking it speaking of the means of salvation when it is saying salvation is available precisely because of the preparation of the gospel.
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goout
Guest
No, I’m rebutting your false claim that a person ignorant of the Gospel cannot be saved.I agree with Lumen Gentium, you’re distorting it by thinking it speaking of the means of salvation when it is saying salvation is available precisely because of the preparation of the gospel.
Nonsense.
No dancing please. It’s unbecoming.
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StAugustine
Guest
Of course. No single Theologian is. But the fact is Lumen Gentium isnt speaking of the means of salvation, but of the preparation to receive it. Even in Aaaaalllll these quotes it still is YET to be received by the time you read it through. Look for yourself.
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StAugustine
Guest
They CAN be saved.
After they lose their ignorance and obtain faith. All the statements in Lumen Gentium are future contingent, you didn’t notice?
After they lose their ignorance and obtain faith. All the statements in Lumen Gentium are future contingent, you didn’t notice?
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goout
Guest
Here;s the passage from Lumen Gentium:
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
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StAugustine
Guest
Last time-
If we posses something that is a preparation for something else, is that thing the GOAL or a means of attaining to a goal?
Talk about willful ignorance…
Another point, the plan of salvation is conversion to Christ through faith. To say it includes anybody of another religion simply means that Christ calls people to conversion from every religion, often by…
Those means of preparation that are in it!
If we posses something that is a preparation for something else, is that thing the GOAL or a means of attaining to a goal?
Talk about willful ignorance…
Another point, the plan of salvation is conversion to Christ through faith. To say it includes anybody of another religion simply means that Christ calls people to conversion from every religion, often by…
Those means of preparation that are in it!
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goout
Guest
Great…Last time-
Lumen Gentium says about ignorance and salvation:
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
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jlhargus
Guest
There is no one more biblical than the Catholic Church. If you believe in OSAS it is totally un-biblical, faith alone is not biblical, bible alone not biblical, baptism symbolic not biblical to name a few.I believe that catholics are christians, I just don’t believe they’re Biblical.
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StAugustine
Guest
Interesting tactic, but I think not. See, you are trying to divide the magisterium from the Theologians. But there is no contradiction here.
The invincibly ignorant can (future contingent) be saved. Just not by their ignorance, which is a negative thing, but by the faith which God gives them for doing the best they can with what they have.
Examples from the life of St. Columba-
Saint Columba preached and worked miracles among the Picts, and, though he spoke by an interpreter, he made converts. One day on the banks of Loch Ness he cried: “Let us make haste to meet the angels, who are come down from heaven and await us beside the death-bed of a Pict, who has kept the natural law, that we may baptize him before he dies.” He was then aged himself, but he outstripped his companions, and reached Glen Urquhart, where the old man expected him, heard him, was baptized, and died in peace. And once, preaching in Skye, he cried out, “You will see arrive an aged chief, a Pict, who has kept faithfully the natural law; he will come here to be baptized and to die;” and so it was.
See, those who have lived their lives in invincible ignorance can be saved!
Just how St. Thomas Aquinas describes as well.
The invincibly ignorant can (future contingent) be saved. Just not by their ignorance, which is a negative thing, but by the faith which God gives them for doing the best they can with what they have.
Examples from the life of St. Columba-
Saint Columba preached and worked miracles among the Picts, and, though he spoke by an interpreter, he made converts. One day on the banks of Loch Ness he cried: “Let us make haste to meet the angels, who are come down from heaven and await us beside the death-bed of a Pict, who has kept the natural law, that we may baptize him before he dies.” He was then aged himself, but he outstripped his companions, and reached Glen Urquhart, where the old man expected him, heard him, was baptized, and died in peace. And once, preaching in Skye, he cried out, “You will see arrive an aged chief, a Pict, who has kept faithfully the natural law; he will come here to be baptized and to die;” and so it was.
See, those who have lived their lives in invincible ignorance can be saved!
Just how St. Thomas Aquinas describes as well.
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StAugustine
Guest
Yes they CAN attain salvation! They can be saved! God rewards their goodwill with faith! See-
As the life of St. Columba shows.
If you want more insight you COULD listen to the testimony of Native Americans converted by the great Jesuit Fr. Pierre de Smet-
“I had the happiness of regenerating nearly three hundred Indians in the waters of baptism. They all begged for the Sacrament, and manifested the best possible dispositions. But as the absence of the missionary would be only temporary, I deemed it wiser to put off the others until the following year, not only with the intention of giving them an exalted idea of the Sacrament, but also to try them in regard to the indissolubility of marriage, something quite unknown among the Indian nations of America.
“Among the adults baptized were two great chiefs, one belonging to the Flathead, the other to the Pend d’Oreilles, both over eighty years of age. When I exhorted them to renew their sentiments of contrition for their sins, Walking Bear ( the name of the second) replied: ‘In my youth and even later in life I lived in complete ignorance of good and evil, and during that time I must often have displeased God. I sincerely ask for pardon. But when I fully realized that a thing was sinful I immediately banished it from my heart. I do not remember ever having deliberately offended the Great Spirit.’ ”
See, those who live in invincible ignorance can be saved.
As the life of St. Columba shows.
If you want more insight you COULD listen to the testimony of Native Americans converted by the great Jesuit Fr. Pierre de Smet-
“I had the happiness of regenerating nearly three hundred Indians in the waters of baptism. They all begged for the Sacrament, and manifested the best possible dispositions. But as the absence of the missionary would be only temporary, I deemed it wiser to put off the others until the following year, not only with the intention of giving them an exalted idea of the Sacrament, but also to try them in regard to the indissolubility of marriage, something quite unknown among the Indian nations of America.
“Among the adults baptized were two great chiefs, one belonging to the Flathead, the other to the Pend d’Oreilles, both over eighty years of age. When I exhorted them to renew their sentiments of contrition for their sins, Walking Bear ( the name of the second) replied: ‘In my youth and even later in life I lived in complete ignorance of good and evil, and during that time I must often have displeased God. I sincerely ask for pardon. But when I fully realized that a thing was sinful I immediately banished it from my heart. I do not remember ever having deliberately offended the Great Spirit.’ ”
See, those who live in invincible ignorance can be saved.
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goout
Guest
This is a wonderful development (pun intended), in line with Lumen Gentium.See, those who live in invincible ignorance can be saved.
maybe a council will be called and you can share the news.
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