are ordinations of homosexuals valid?

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I’m not asking if they are licit, but whether they are valid.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505371.htm

CNS said:
Some church officials have questioned whether some ordinations might even be considered invalid because of homosexuality. But the sources said that is not how the Vatican plans to approach the issue. For one thing, the validity of orders is a thorny church law question that would in turn raise pastoral problems – such as the legitimacy of past sacramental acts carried out by a priest whose ordination was judged invalid.

This concerns me because if the ordinations are not valid, then some of the sacraments I receive from priests, including baptism, confession, eucharist, may be invalid since I was baptized by a priest who for all I know might be homosexual and the same for confession and eucharist as well as confirmation.

Could someone who knows a lot about this issue please help me out? 🙂
 
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tuopaolo:
I’m not asking if they are licit, but whether they are valid.
The ordinations are still valid. This document will restate previous policy.

Homosexuality is just one of a large number of intrinsically disordered states which would keep a man from becoming ordained, like schizophrenia or clinical depression.

A priest’s sacramental acts are valid as long as form is followed. They are valid even if the priest has a behavioral condition which should have kept him from being ordained. They are also valid even if the priest is in a state of mortal sin (though that has no bearing here, since we’re strictly talking about orientation, not acting out)
 
Promotor Fidei:
The ordinations are still valid. This document will restate previous policy.

Homosexuality is just one of a large number of intrinsically disordered states which would keep a man from becoming ordained, like schizophrenia or clinical depression.

A priest’s sacramental acts are valid as long as form is followed. They are valid even if the priest has a behavioral condition which should have kept him from being ordained. They are also valid even if the priest is in a state of mortal sin (though that has no bearing here, since we’re strictly talking about orientation, not acting out)
Thank you.

I understand all that you are saying, but why is it that “Some church officials have questioned whether some ordinations might even be considered invalid because of homosexuality.” These church officials seem to disagree with you or seem to be taking into account some factor you haven’t considered or know about. Any idea what they might be thinking?

Maybe being non-homosexual is part of the “valid matter” requirement? Or maybe it’s because those ordained – or some of them – may have deliberately deceived their bishops to get ordained and maybe church law says that if you do that the ordination is invalid … I have no idea but I really would like to know what these “church officials” are thinking. It worries me more not knowing than knowing! I’ve seen comments by Joaquin Navarro-Valls in the past which talk about this, but he doesn’t say why but he did say what he was saying was not “definitive”
 
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tuopaolo:
I understand all that you are saying, but why is it that “Some church officials have questioned whether some ordinations might even be considered invalid because of homosexuality.” These church officials seem to disagree with you or seem to be taking into account some factor you haven’t considered or know about. Any idea what they might be thinking?
I do.

There is no doubt that many church officials disagree with the policy. I think they are seeking to sabotage it by raising questions about the validity of existing ordinations. They hope to delay or stop the policy from being reissued.

This is not a new policy. St. Peter Damian in his “Book of Gomorrah” (11th century) urged the church to bar those with same sex attraction from the clergy because of widespread pederasty. The church at the time did bar them. If only that discipline had maintained, the church might have been saved from this shameful state of constant scandal.

helpthebishops.com/StPeterDamian.htm
 
Promotor Fidei:
I do.

There is no doubt that many church officials disagree with the policy. I think they are seeking to sabotage it by raising questions about the validity of existing ordinations. They hope to delay or stop the policy from being reissued.
Thanks.

I still don’t understand 🙂 Wouldn’t raising questions about the validity of existing ordinations be a reason to reaffirm strongly not ordaining homosexuals so as to prevent no more from being – possibly invalidly – ordained? It would seem that if they are raising questions about the validity then they would be for an even stricter policy which would remove those they think may be invalidly ordained from the priesthood. Is that what you are saying, that they want an even stricter policy and are unhappy with the less strict one? Or are you saying something else 🙂
 
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tuopaolo:
Is that what you are saying, that they want an even stricter policy and are unhappy with the less strict one? Or are you saying something else 🙂
No. There’s no way that the ordinations of priests with same sex attraction are going to be declared invalid. All of their sacramental acts would become invalid as well. The church has never declared ordinations invalid for any other behavioral affliction, why would it do so with SSA?

It’s not a serious possibility at all, IMHO, and church officials would have to know it. That’s why I suspect someone bringing up this objection might have ulterior motives.
 
If you look at the canons on ordination, the requirements for validity are minimal. Part of the reason is to prevent the situation of invalidly ordained clerics performing invalid acts of ministry to the detriment of souls. Consequently the canonical threshold is low.

The requirements for validity are threefold. Everything else required for ordination by the law is for lawfulness rather than validity itself.
  1. Canon 1012: The minister of sacred ordination is a consecrated bishop.
  2. Canon 1024:Only a baptized male validly receives sacred ordination.
  3. In light of canon 2 which “canonizes” liturgical laws unless contrary to the code, the proper form of the Rite of Ordination would be required for validity as well. (Also see c. 1009 §2, orders are conferred by the imposition of hands and the consecratory prayer which the liturgical books prescribe.)
Canon 1041 and 1044 treat irregularities regarding receiving orders and exercising orders already received, respectively. An irregularity impedes the lawful reception of orders or the lawful exercise of orders already received. However, an irregularity does not render ordination invalid.

An irregularity at the time of ordination or subsequently by itself would not render sacramental actions of a priest, such as confecting the Eucharist, invalid. It would “only” render them illegal, or contrary to law.
*
(For the valid administration of penance, the valid witnessing of matrimony, and even the valid conferral of confirmation, certain faculties * are needed, but that is a separate matter.)*

Canon 1041, 1º would illustrate this for candidates for ordination: [The following are irregular as regards the reception of orders:]
“1º one who labors under some form of insanity or other psychic defect due to which, after consultation with experts, he is judged incapable of rightly carrying out the ministry.”

Canon 1044 revisits this about the already ordained:
“§1. The following are irregular as regards the exercise of orders already received: 1º a person who has illegitimately received orders while he had an irregularity precluding his receiving orders. . . . §2. The following are impeded from exercising orders: 1º a person who has illegitimately received orders while he was bound by an impediment precluding his receiving orders; 2º a person who is afflicted with insanity or some other psychic defect mentioned in can. 1041, 1º, until the time when the ordinary after consultation with an expert, permits him the exercise of that order.”

The discussion has been that true same sex attraction presents such a psychic defect to that one would be judged incapable as the canon describes to receive orders. What the document may do is to tie true homosexual orientation to the determination of such a psychic defect rather than requiring the consultation mentioned in those canons.

As to clerics already ordained, that topic would seem to be outside the scope of a document on seminary formation.
“Some church officials have questioned whether some ordinations might even be considered invalid because of homosexuality.”
Therefore, it is totally unclear that there is a basis in the law, as it exists and is treated above, that would lead to this conclusion. Unless we know the names of the officials and their reasoning, not much more could be said.

The only thing I could conjure up is the belief that there was a defect of intentionality on the part of a bishop to ordain or the man to be ordained. But that would need a canonical trial.

As noted, the Church is loathe to declare ordinations invalid because of the repercussions.*
 
I’m not worried about the Church declaring the ordinations invalid. I don’t think that would happen at least not in my lifetime. What concerns me is whether the ordinations are in fact invalid without regard to whether there happens to be in the future a declaration to that effect.

I think you may be misinterpreting the news article. When it says “Some church officials have questioned whether some ordinations might even be considered invalid because of homosexuality,” the words “considered invalid” are with reference not to the upcoming instruction that is to be published, but whether they are in fact valid or invalid – i.e. whether they would be properly considered invalid.

One person (and I do not know if he is one that the article had in mind) who has publically questioned whether the ordinations are valid is Joaquin Navarro-Valls and he is hardly a liberal. He is a member of Opus Dei. Let me quote from another, older article:
The Wanderer:
When Pope John Paul II’s spokesman, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls said homosexuals should not be ordained and questioned whether the ordinations of homosexuals could even be valid, he raised an issue that Church officials have cautiously skirted — or ignored — for decades, even though, officially, the Church prohibits the ordination of homosexuals.
thewandererpress.com/a3-14-02.htm

So, I am afraid that this question is a real one since it is raised by very orthodox, conservative Catholics like Joaquin Navarro-Valls – and not as one of you perhaps supposed, a red herring raised by liberals.

Navarro-Valls exact words were published in the New York Times, but they aren’t very enlightening. He just questions if they are even valid but says that his statement is not a definitive judgment. He doesn’t give a clear or specific reason. At the time, I tried to find out more about it but couldn’t … and now the issue has resurfaced again and so I’m worried that it’s more serious than I thought it was.

I wish the (other) church officials would be more open about this … because as I said not knowing seems worse than knowing. It’s like if you know you might have cancer and the doctors refuse to tell you whether you do in fact have cancer or what the chances you have cancer are. But, in the end I must just trust in God 🙂

cameron, thank you for your canon law teaching. I’ll have to re-read it later because right now I have a headache and it seems so complicated at the moment 🙂 But I know that canon lawyers disagree with each other about whether women can be validly ordained as deacons (whether it’s possible, not whether it’s licit) … so apparently the law isn’t clear about that issue and if so, it’s possible it’s not clear about whatever issues lead these certain “church officials” to question homosexual ordination validity.

Thanks again for all your helpful responses 🙂
 
What about Alcoholics and womanizers? What should a bishop who has a suspected Gay priest do. I will tell you what they will do.If the priest has not been suspected of anything.The bishop will do nothing.They are loosing too many priests for spurious reasons as it is.
 
Deacon John:
The only thing I could conjure up is the belief that there was a defect of intentionality on the part of a bishop to ordain or the man to be ordained. But that would need a canonical trial.
Another possibility that strikes me is that perhaps there is also an issue with a defect of intentionality on the part of the ordinand (the homosexual being ordained). I don’t think, for example, an insane person could be validly ordained because the sacrament of orders requires consent on the part of the ordinant for it to be valid. Perhaps there is something about the nature of the holy orders that makes it impossible or at least unlikely for a homosexual to be able to give that proper consent similar perhaps to how the Church teaches that it is impossible by way of the natural law for an antecedently and perpetually impotent (not infertile) person to give consent.

The comments in parenthesis are for the benefit of others who may be reading since I am sure that you Deacon are familiar with what “impotent” means etc.

Thank you again for your carefully written response 🙂
 
A homosexual cannot be truly celibate. Priestly celibacy is a sacrificial act and refraining from marriage and consequent intimacy with a woman is no sacrifice for a homosexual.

Abstinence from homosexual activity is not celibacy. It is not a sacrificial act - it is the avoidance of sin.

A homosexual cannot make a genuine vow of celibacy therefore a homosexual cannot be validly ordained.
 
A homosexual cannot be truly celibate. Priestly celibacy is a sacrificial act and refraining from marriage and consequent intimacy with a woman is no sacrifice for a homosexual.

Abstinence from homosexual activity is not celibacy. It is not a sacrificial act - it is the avoidance of sin.

A homosexual cannot make a genuine vow of celibacy therefore a homosexual cannot be validly ordained.
Well, homosexual men can and frequently do marry women and have sexual relationships with them - whether because they are unsure about their sexuality, or want children and a mother to bear and raise those children with, for ulterior motives such as money. Or quite simply they love women but are not sexually attracted to them. which suits some women who are also not terribly interested in sex.

All of this leaves aside issues of bisexuality.

All these potential benefits are denied to homosexual as well heterosexual men. So it cannot be said that there is no sacrifice involved in giving up the opportunity to marry.
 
Homosexual marriages are not valid either, Lily. Homosexuals (and I include bisexuals in that) cannot be celibate. They can be chaste, but that it is not celibacy.

Consequently the ordination of homosexual men is invalid and The Church cannot ignore that fact forever.
 
A homosexual cannot be truly celibate. Priestly celibacy is a sacrificial act and refraining from marriage and consequent intimacy with a woman is no sacrifice for a homosexual.

Abstinence from homosexual activity is not celibacy. It is not a sacrificial act - it is the avoidance of sin.

A homosexual cannot make a genuine vow of celibacy therefore a homosexual cannot be validly ordained.
I see this thread is eight years old. For future reference, the forum guidelines request starting a new thread instead of resurrecting old threads.

Anyway, the quality of being a sacrifice is not of the essence of celibacy. I don’t know where you got an idea like that from, but it just isn’t. Never has been, either.

Also, priests do not make a vow of celibacy. They don’t make vows at all. Common misconception, though – but it is actually members of religious orders that make vows. Priests make promises, and although this does include a promise of celibacy, this is not part of the sacrament of ordination.
 
Sorry, but I must disagree.

From Benedict XVI’s Light of the World of 2010 “Homosexuality is incompatible with the priestly vocation. Otherwise, celibacy itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation. It would be extremely dangerous if celibacy became a sort of pretext for bringing people into priesthood who don’t want to get married anyway."
 
I forgot to add that in my understanding a vow is a solemn promise and I have no do doubt that both carry the same weight before God.
 
Sorry, but I must disagree.

From Benedict XVI’s Light of the World of 2010 “Homosexuality is incompatible with the priestly vocation. Otherwise, celibacy itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation. It would be extremely dangerous if celibacy became a sort of pretext for bringing people into priesthood who don’t want to get married anyway."
Given that you are quoting Benedict in a book and not in an encyclical, you are quoting his personal opinion on such matters. I would like to see you cite something that has more authority on the subject.
 
Sorry, but I must disagree.

From Benedict XVI’s Light of the World of 2010 “Homosexuality is incompatible with the priestly vocation. Otherwise, celibacy itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation. It would be extremely dangerous if celibacy became a sort of pretext for bringing people into priesthood who don’t want to get married anyway."
He is right, but it does not follow from this that celibacy is impossible except as a renunciation. In the same way, a poor person can make a promise (or vow) of poverty – it is not of the essence of a commitment to poverty that one give up wealth. It is, I suppose, more meaningful coming from a rich person – though, on the other hand, one thinks of the widow’s mite. But nobody would say, “Oh, a poor person cannot validly become a Franciscan. Franciscans take a vow of poverty, but if somebody is already a pauper then ‘poverty itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation’.”

Benedict, of course, despite having written what you quoted, does not share your novel opinion about the validity of ordinations of homosexuals.
I forgot to add that in my understanding a vow is a solemn promise and I have no do doubt that both carry the same weight before God.
No, they are different things, and vows are more solemn. Either way, though, since they are not a part of the sacrament of ordination, they have no bearing on whether it is validly administered.
 
Is this resurrection of an 8 year old thread a joke? :confused:

Anyway, while I am not getting involved in this, before the thread is closed by the mod, I suggest that perhaps a look-up in the dictionary will help with the definition of celibacy. Here’s one for starters:
Definition of CELIBACY
1: the state of not being married
2
a : abstention from sexual intercourse
b : abstention by vow from marriage
 
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