Are Orthodox are Catholic theologies mutually exclusive?

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I really wish we could be united again. Even though we have theological and ecclesiastical differences, I’ve always viewed us as having received a shared apostolic heritage. I will always view the Catholic church as very close brethren. 🙂
It begins one person at a time.

You want re-unification…and you’re a catechumen…see where this is going?
 
I honestly can’t say whether the filioque is orthodox or not (way above my pay grade) but just thinking that one is not subordinate to another is not really enough from an Orthodox point of view. The theology itself needs to reflect that, which is why for those who disagree with the Filioque think it subordinates the Holy Spirit, even if the Latin Catholics say otherwise.
If the “filioque” is orthodox, then those who point to it as a reason to remain is schism have one less arrow in their quivers. So, what about it?

Filioque – Why it’s Okay to Add it to the Creed

Here are some key dates:

AD 325 – Nicaea
AD 381 – Constantinople I
AD 431 – Ephesus
AD 451 – Chalcedon
AD 1438 – Florence

The Council of Ephesus (431) prohibited the making of new creeds. It stated:

It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy Fathers who were gathered together in the Holy Spirit at Nicaea. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges, and if they are laymen they are to be anathematized. (Definition of the Faith at Nicaea)

Note that Ephesus referred to the creed as composed by the Fathers at Nicaea (325), not as modified at Constantinople in 381. This is significant because the final portion of the Nicene Creed, which deals with the Holy Spirit and contains the filioque clause, was not composed until the First Council of Constantinople (381). If the prohibition of Ephesus undermined the modern Catholic creed, it undermines the Eastern Orthodox creed no less, since the Eastern Orthodox version includes the material on the Holy Spirit as written at Constantinople I. It is inconsistent for the Eastern Orthodox to cite Ephesus about the filioque clause when all of the material on the Holy Spirit was added to the creed that was formulated at Nicaea.

Ephesus’s prohibition of making a new creed in addition to the Nicene prompted questions about the status of the material added by Constantinople I. How this material was to be regarded was settled at the ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451), which stated,

Therefore this sacred and great and universal synod . . . decrees that the creed of the 318 fathers is, above all else, to remain inviolate. And because of those who oppose the Holy Spirit, it ratifies the teaching about the being of the Holy Spirit handed down by the 150 saintly fathers who met some time later in the imperial city–the teaching they made known to all, not introducing anything left out by their predecessors, but clarifying their ideas about the Holy Spirit. (Definition of the Faith).

Edicts of an ecumenical council are binding on Christians, but they are not binding on another ecumenical council unless they are pronouncing a matter of faith or morals. Later ecumenical councils can revise or modify disciplinary policies of their predecessors. Since the prohibition on making a new creed was a disciplinary matter, it could be changed by later ecumenical councils.

According to Chalcedon, it was permissible for the Fathers of Constantinople I to include the material on the Holy Spirit in the Creed of Nicaea; they were not adding substance but clarifying what was already there. Yet if this option of making clarifying notations to the creed was permissible for them, it would be permissible for others also.

Thus, the Ecumenical Council of Florence (1438-45) had the authority to add “filioque” legitimately as a clarification of the manner of the Spirit’s procession; therefore, the Creed was changed, and the council ruled that the addition of the words “and the Son” was valid.
 
It begins one person at a time.

You want re-unification…and you’re a catechumen…see where this is going?
🙂 Okay, I’ll bite: Kmon is an Orthodox catechumen, indicating that he will soon be in full communion with the Orthodox. But that’s just choosing one side rather than the other. (Some like to say “zero-sum game”, but let’s not open that bottle of worms. ;))
 
🙂 Okay, I’ll bite: Kmon is an Orthodox catechumen, indicating that he will soon be in full communion with the Orthodox. But that’s just choosing one side rather than the other. (Some like to say “zero-sum game”, but let’s not open that bottle of worms. ;))
If everyone chose to be in full communion with the Patriarch of Rome, then the schism would be over.
 
On judgement day, I wonder if there will be those that can’t enter through the narrow gate because they believed that the Holy Spirit only proceeded from the Father, or they believed that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son when it is only the father. I’m convinced the filioque isn’t as important as either side makes it to be.
“As either side makes it to be…” The Filioque is only an issue for the Eastern Orthodox. Catholics firmly believe that the Creed is correct both with and without the Filioque clause. Eastern Catholics, with full endorsement from Rome, do NOT recite the Filioque. It is not an issue for Catholics period. It is a unfortunately a one sided issue.
 
Catholics firmly believe that the Creed is correct both with and without the Filioque clause.
If so, then since Roman Catholics know that the filioque is objectionable to Eastern Orthodox, why don’t Roman Catholics remove the filioque from the creed in the interest of promoting good relations with the Eastern Orthodox Church?
 
If so, then since Roman Catholics know that the filioque is objectionable to Eastern Orthodox, why don’t Roman Catholics remove the filioque from the creed in the interest of promoting good relations with the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Catechism of the Catholic Church answers that question:248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father’s character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he “who proceeds from the Father”, it affirms that he comes from the Father *through *the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, “legitimately and with good reason”,78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as “the principle without principle”,79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.
 
If so, then since Roman Catholics know that the filioque is objectionable to Eastern Orthodox, why don’t Roman Catholics remove the filioque from the creed in the interest of promoting good relations with the Eastern Orthodox Church?
We should never deny truth for the sake of unity. To remove it would be akin to denying it.
 
Even foundational theology is now different… For example Catholic teaching is that everyone (even newborns) inherit original sin and are broken. For an Orthodox original sin only causes a potential for sin in people and that until we sin (no one it perfect so everyone will do so eventually) we are clean. Our sins are our own and not from a distant ancestor.
Not so Without.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#405

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the
natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. ]

According to scripture children of believers are sanctified but children of unbelievers are unclean

[1Cor7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:** else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.]

[Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 **That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] Children are naturally born of flesh and must be born again by water and of the Spirit.
 
Even foundational theology is now different… For example Catholic teaching is that everyone (even newborns) inherit original sin and are broken. For an Orthodox original sin only causes a potential for sin in people and that until we sin (no one it perfect so everyone will do so eventually) we are clean. Our sins are our own and not from a distant ancestor.
There is no personal sin is present in newborns per Catholic theology.

For eastern (Byzantine) theology infants are need baptism. Have you read St. John Chrysostom?

St. John Chrysostom, Baptismal Instruction 3:6. (Ancient Christian Writers, p. 57)
“You have seen how numerous are the gifts of baptism. Although many men think that the only gift it confers is the remission of sins, we have counted its honors to the number of ten. It is on this account that we baptize even infants, although they are sinless, that they may be given the further gifts of sanctification, justice, filial adoption, and inheritance, that they may be brothers and members of Christ, and become dwelling places of the Spirit.”
books.google.com/books?id=xC9GAdUGX5sC&pg=PA581&lpg=PA581&dq=ancient+christian+baptismal+instructions&source=bl&ots=BsaK0-HWzv&sig=qzr0ByV4c89cbpTuO1pU7fxjdhI&hl=en&ei=fii_TtbJDM-1tge_75C8Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=ancient%20christian%20baptismal%20instructions&f=false

Mentioned in 3:6:1 remission of sins
2 sanctification
3 justice
4 filial adoption
5 inheritance
6 brothers of Christ
7 members of Christ
8 dwelling places for the Holy Spirit
“You are called faithful both because you believe in God and have as a trust from him justification, sanctity, purity of soul, filial adoption, and the kingdom of heaven.”
Two more mentioned in 12:6:9 purity of soul
10 kingdom of heaven
 
We should never deny truth for the sake of unity. To remove it would be akin to denying it.
What truth is being denied by removing the filioque since “Catholics firmly believe that the Creed is correct both with and without the Filioque clause.”
 
I find that this is true just from the majority of posts between Catholics and Orthodox on CAF. What I found amazing was the arrogant tone prevalent throughout the entire letter. Anyway, I couldn’t agree with you more. Sad. Very sad.
God bless, Steve.

It is indeed sad when either party is arrogant or dismissive towards the other…I have seen it as much on the Latin Catholic side as much as on the Orthodox. Fortunately, I haven’t really encountered this in real life. It is the internet, and must always be taken with a grain of salt.
 
Well, Catholics agree with you, of course. We just disagree on the issue of original sin, and I’m trying to illustrate that obvious defect in your theology. Thus far, you haven’t given me any real reasons why it’s important to baptize a child.
What gives you the impression that (misunderstandings aside, from both Latin and Eastern parties) we do not teach original sin? As defined by Rome, not by Calvinists or other Protestants, mind you.
 
What truth is being denied by removing the filioque since “Catholics firmly believe that the Creed is correct both with and without the Filioque clause.”
It has been a legitimate part of the Latin tradition for over a thousand years. We don’t impose it on Eastern Catholics nor would we attempt to impose it upon the Orthodox. What we could do is emphasize to our faithful that it can be expressed as “through the Son” and raise awareness of the potential obstacles an incorrect understanding the clause can cause in Eastern relations.
 
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