Are Orthodox are Catholic theologies mutually exclusive?

[Kmon23]

**** And everything that is given in the church is all for the glory of God, because we want our best for Him, just like with Mary in John 12. In light of that, I don’t see how Luke 7:25 applies.

And I think that the Catholic Mass in the video is obviously not representative of how reverent and beautiful Catholic Mass can be.

 

[dronald]

I hope you realize the liturgical garments are not representative of the lives of these people. I have a great parish priest and he also has beautiful garments. But they are the church’s, and are only worn for liturgical purposes. Outside of that setting, he wears plain black priest robes. In light of that, I don’t see how Luke 7:25 applies

Wouldn’t the same apply to Kings in courts? I’m sure they went home and put on pajamas, and dressed more casually around their closest peers as well.

 

[dronald]

**** And everything that is given in the church is all for the glory of God, because we want our best for Him, just like with Mary in John 12. In light of that, I don’t see how Luke 7:25 applies.

And I think that the Catholic Mass in the video is obviously not representative of how reverent and beautiful Catholic Mass can be.

I don’t believe God cares if they dress splendidly or not, so I really don’t see the point.

If Orthodoxy means “what the Apostles and first Bishops did” then it certainly wasn’t dressing like that.

 

[Kmon23]

Wouldn’t the same apply to Kings in courts? I’m sure they went home and put on pajamas, and dressed more casually around their closest peers as well.

That’s not what I am saying. Your statement is about the sin of living in splendor for oneself in selfishness, and I am saying that the garments the priests and bishops wear are not indicative of them living sumptuously. For example, a Franciscan friar could be wearing priestly garments for a Mass, but I would never accuse him of living a sumptuous life.

And I disagree on your second post. It’s true that God doesn’t care about our clothes, but instead what is in our heart. But what does that say about us if we are not giving our best for God? I could wear a profane shirt to church, or just go in our pajamas. It is the same with friends and family and chidren. Does not a mother give her child the best she has to offer because she wants to express her love for the child? We love God, and we should strive to offer our best when it concerns God, in all things.

 

[dronald]

That’s not what I am saying. Your statement is about the sin of living in splendor, and I am saying that the garments the priests and bishops wear are not indicative of them living sumptuously. For example, a Franciscan friar could be wearing priestly garments for a Mass, but I would never accuse him of living a sumptuous life.

Not exactly.

Jesus’s quote was in regards to what people should expect from a Prophet; from a godly man; and they were wrong. Fancy clothes are for kings courts. Jesus said that even Soloman wasn’t arrayed like the lillys; so I can’t comprehend the idea of dressing extra fancy. I feel like being in splendid clothing is what we would expect from a Priest of the One God, and yet Jesus came as a peasant and spoke to the lowly. It was the poor and broken that spread the Christian Faith, not the type that dress in fine clothing like these men.

And I disagree on your second post. It’s true that God doesn’t care about our clothes, but instead what is in our heart. But what does that say about us not giving our best for God? I could wear a profane shirt to church, or just go in our pajamas. However we love God, and we should strive to offer our best when it concerns God.

Extremes here.

You’re saying “wear a profane shirt or dress nicely.” That’s not what I’m saying either. There’s nothing wrong with dressing well, and there’s nothing wrong with dressing like how a person dresses. But why in the world do Bishops need garments like those? It’s over the top and certainly not truly Apostolic.

 

[Mystophilus]

Whereas we Orthodox see Catholicism and Protestantism as two sides of the same coin.

Which is quaint, because the conservative Protestants who do think like Catholics tend to regard Orthodoxy and Catholicism as two sides of the same coin, whereas many liberal Protestants agree more with Orthodox theology than with Catholic theology.

 

[Kmon23]

Not exactly.

Jesus’s quote was in regards to what people should expect from a Prophet; from a godly man; and they were wrong. Fancy clothes are for kings courts. Jesus said that even Soloman wasn’t arrayed like the lillys; so I can’t comprehend the idea of dressing extra fancy. I feel like being in splendid clothing is what we would expect from a Priest of the One God, and yet Jesus came as a peasant and spoke to the lowly. It was the poor and broken that spread the Christian Faith, not the type that dress in fine clothing like these men.

Extremes here.

You’re saying “wear a profane shirt or dress nicely.” That’s not what I’m saying either. There’s nothing wrong with dressing well, and there’s nothing wrong with dressing like how a person dresses. But why in the world do Bishops need garments like those? It’s over the top and certainly not truly Apostolic.

I was more under the impression that you were saying it was a sin, not necessarily the scriptures, since otherwise I would have thought you wouldn’t have mentioned it.

And yes I concede my example was extreme but I thought the same from your statement when you said “I don’t believe God cares if they dress splendidly or not, so I really don’t see the point.” I thought you meant what we wear didn’t matter at all, especially when you said you don’t see the point (which is why I mentioned the extreme example).

However I don’t understand what you mean by Apostolic since there are a lot of differences between then and now. We have a full canon of scripture, they did not, some worshipped in homes, they didn’t have the same spiritual traditions as we do. I just don’t see what apostolicity has to do with how a church is adorned. We create beautiful and adorned churches because we love Christ. When you say it’s over the top, I could say the same about the oil, which was a year’s worth of salary. I just don’t see what’s wrong with how a church is adorned. I go to an Orthodox parish that is small and cozy, and dramatically different than one in the video. But I would not question a parishioner to want to add to the church if the person does it out of love for Christ. It feels as if you are saying we shouldn’t have those vestments for the clergy in liturgy. But if we can, what’s the problem with that? After all, it is in liturgy that we find the life of church, and a place that helps us orientate ourselves towards Christ.

And I think we will have to agree to disagree because we are really getting off topic. It was great talking though.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Here is an example of an Orthodox comparison between the two liturgies from an Orthodox pov:
youtube.com/watch?v=fHZtbnaXuGk

This is the pure definition of a cheap shot. This video gives off the impression that the Orthodox Church has the perfect combination of reverence and solemnity whereas the Catholic liturgy is presented as a carnival hosted by clowns. When I once sought to convert to the EO, the priest at my local parish warned me against thinking the EOC is the perfect Church. There is no such thing. Does liturgical abuse never occur in the EOC?

And why is it allowed you might ask? Well, you might as well ask why there is sin…

 

[prodromos]

Does liturgical abuse never occur in the EOC

Like organs in some of the Greek parishes in the US. Ugh. Byzantine Chant has many tones which do not fit the Western diatonic scale. Organ accompaniment totally screws those tones.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Like organs in some of the Greek parishes in the US. Ugh. Byzantine Chant has many tones which do not fit the Western diatonic scale. Organ accompaniment totally screws those tones.

At least that’s not as bad as that video. If it is one thing that I admire about the EOC, it’s that one never hears cases like this happening. Modernism with all of its kitsch seems to be absent from the EOC. American culture makes banal everything it touches it seems. The opposite of the midas touch.

 

[prodromos]

The Orthodox service in the video makes me think of Luke 7:25.

We are in the house of the King of kings.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Spoken like a true Baptist.

You know that Eastern Catholics do that, too, right?

Weird.

I was raised Methodist.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That may or may not be the case, depending on the father in question. The fact of the matter is that fathers earlier than say, Augustine, may not have meant the same thing as Augustine with the language they used. It can’t be read anachronistically.

I am wondering, though, if this is such a huge issue between the Catholics and Orthodox, then why does it not affect relations between the Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics, who have the same understanding of original sin as the Orthodox?

The ultimate question regards the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

That’s what this is all about.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But we don’t deny that infants and everyone (save Christ our Lord) have original sin. We all have ancestral sin… so I’m not sure what you are getting at.

And as far as I am concerned (at least from what the Vatican has to say) our ancestral sin is complementary and compatible with Latin theology of it (namely original sin).

In light of this agreement with the Vatican, can you explain the Orthodox rejection of the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

 

[Kmon23]

In light of this agreement with the Vatican, can you explain the Orthodox rejection of the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

We reject it simply because it’s not in our tradition. Simple as that.
And doesn’t the Byzantine Catholic Church maintain the same view of original sin like the Orthodox (believing in ancestral sin) yet still accept the Immaculate Conception? If that is the case, then I would assume they are compatible, and the rejection/acceptance of the Immaculate Conception is more about whether it is teaching we have received than say the different theological expression of the truth of our state from the fall of man.

 

[dronald]

I was more under the impression that you were saying it was a sin, not necessarily the scriptures, since otherwise I would have thought you wouldn’t have mentioned it.

And yes I concede my example was extreme but I thought the same from your statement when you said “I don’t believe God cares if they dress splendidly or not, so I really don’t see the point.” I thought you meant what we wear didn’t matter at all, especially when you said you don’t see the point (which is why I mentioned the extreme example).

However I don’t understand what you mean by Apostolic since there are a lot of differences between then and now. We have a full canon of scripture, they did not, some worshipped in homes, they didn’t have the same spiritual traditions as we do. I just don’t see what apostolicity has to do with how a church is adorned. We create beautiful and adorned churches because we love Christ. When you say it’s over the top, I could say the same about the oil, which was a year’s worth of salary. I just don’t see what’s wrong with how a church is adorned. I go to an Orthodox parish that is small and cozy, and dramatically different than one in the video. But I would not question a parishioner to want to add to the church if the person does it out of love for Christ. It feels as if you are saying we shouldn’t have those vestments for the clergy in liturgy. But if we can, what’s the problem with that? After all, it is in liturgy that we find the life of church, and a place that helps us orientate ourselves towards Christ.

And I think we will have to agree to disagree because we are really getting off topic. It was great talking though.

Yeah, good chat. Take care!

 

[Randy_Carson]

We reject it simply because it’s not in our tradition. Simple as that.

But it was commonly understood among the ECF’s.

And doesn’t the Byzantine Catholic Church maintain the same view of original sin like the Orthodox (believing in ancestral sin) yet still accept the Immaculate Conception? If that is the case, then I would assume they are compatible, and the rejection/acceptance of the Immaculate Conception is more about whether it is teaching we have received than say the different theological expression of the truth of our state from the fall of man.

Catholics believe in original sin. But we’re wrong.

Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception in light of Original Sin. But we’re wrong.

Catholics understand infant baptism in light of Original Sin. But we’re wrong.

Thank you for this clarification.

 

[Tomdstone]

Catholics believe in original sin. But we’re wrong.

Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception in light of Original Sin. But we’re wrong.

Catholics understand infant baptism in light of Original Sin. But we’re wrong.

Thank you for this clarification.

So it is more that papal infallibility which divides Roman Catholics from Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So it is more that papal infallibility which divides Roman Catholics from Eastern Orthodox.

If the EO accepted infallibility, then the infallible dogma of the Immaculate Conception would not be an issue, would it?

 

[twf]

We reject it simply because it’s not in our tradition. Simple as that.
And doesn’t the Byzantine Catholic Church maintain the same view of original sin like the Orthodox (believing in ancestral sin) yet still accept the Immaculate Conception? If that is the case, then I would assume they are compatible, and the rejection/acceptance of the Immaculate Conception is more about whether it is teaching we have received than say the different theological expression of the truth of our state from the fall of man.

See my earlier posts in this thread. I believe they are compatible. I have discussed the matter with Orthodox Christians in “real life” and an Orthodox cousin of mine discussed it with his priest. If we understand the Immaculate Conception to be primarily a declaration of Mary’s holiness from the first moment of Her conception, apart from the Western framework of original sin, there is common ground. The rest of us must wait until baptism to be fully united to Christ. Our Lady was united to the Blessed Trinity from the first moment of her conception. According to my cousin’s Orthodox priest this is compatible with Eastern theology.