Are other religions wrong or just not fully true?

[openmind77]

Interesting idea!

Now suppose the Christ returned three days after His death to demonstrate the eternal promise of His Word (the Holy Bible). What should Catholics do if the Christ returned tomorrow, in order to annul the eternal promise of His Word?

I did not say the Christ will return and annul any promises.

The point is that the Holy Bible is not entirely his Word. It has been written by men long after Jesus’s death and resurrection. It is a human creation and incomplete, however much you and the Church try to convince yourself that it is the whole and complete truth.

The question is, if the Christ wants to amend something - will you let him or will you reject him?

Is your loyalty to God or to a book and a bunch of dogma?

…Fantasizing won’t help us to know or follow His truth.

I am not talking about fantasy. What if the Christ himself wanted to expand/clarify what he has already said?

 

[jochoa]

The question is, if the Christ wants to amend something - will you let him or will you reject him?

Ah, I initially struggled with your proposition of “…wants to correct,” which means something is wrong. If you limit the changes to minor changes in Faith to aide human understanding, then Christ does this frequently through the Pope, and I am very willing to let Him.

Is your loyalty to God or to a book and a bunch of dogma?

My loyalty is to God, whose Message is the Holy Bible and the Doctrines and Teachings of the Catholic Church.

I would enjoy hearing your thoughts on Dogmas that you perceive are wrong. Please consider the Dogmas of the Catholic Faith, and share 1 or 2 Dogmas which you perceive are wrong, and why you perceive them as wrong.

Thanks for the extended discussion!

 

[marywarfield]

I did not say the Christ will return and annul any promises.

The point is that the Holy Bible is not entirely his Word. It has been written by men long after Jesus’s death and resurrection. It is a human creation and incomplete, however much you and the Church try to convince yourself that it is the whole and complete truth.

The question is, if the Christ wants to amend something - will you let him or will you reject him?

Is your loyalty to God or to a book and a bunch of dogma?

I am not talking about fantasy. What if the Christ himself wanted to expand/clarify what he has already said?

I’m sorry but your proposition is ridiculous from a Catholic
point of view. Jesus as an all knowing omnipotent God
is not going to “correct Himself” as He makes no
mistakes. And if had wanted wiggle room He would
have said so.

As far as His Word goes- that is not correctable either.
He sent His Advocate-His Paraclete to assure
His Word would be spread without error.
That is why He told His Apostles not to worry
about what to say- the Holy Spirit would say it all.

 

[marywarfield]

I did not say the Christ will return and annul any promises.

The point is that the Holy Bible is not entirely his Word. It has been written by men long after Jesus’s death and resurrection. It is a human creation and incomplete, however much you and the Church try to convince yourself that it is the whole and complete truth.

The question is, if the Christ wants to amend something - will you let him or will you reject him?

Is your loyalty to God or to a book and a bunch of dogma?

I am not talking about fantasy. What if the Christ himself wanted to expand/clarify what he has already said?

And again the point is the Bible is ENTIRELY the
Word of God and no one else. Every word is from the
mouth of God- an omnipotent God. Does it make
sense to you that an omnipotent God would
have to correct His Words?

 

[Frankenfurter]

How do we know we’re correct, let alone following the full truth?

Ah, the classic problem of the impatient, looking for knowledge BEFORE having faith.

You are in fact asking for the results of some test where someone had faith in many different religions, then discerned the truth of each and arrived at the one true one.

Hey, maybe you can just Google it!

Perhaps you also want to KNOW for sure that your financial investment will achieve 10% return BEFORE you put your money down.

Sorry, no risk no reward. That’s real life.

God asks for your faith, not a calculation of the highest return for yourself.

You can’t game real life.

 

[Abu]

openmind77 #21
What if the Christ himself wanted to expand/clarify what he has already said?

As you’ve been informed doctrine can be, and is, developed without contradiction, by Christ’s Supreme Vicars, His popes.

Why do you think He took the trouble to be so exact in His mandate to St Peter with which you are now familiar?

 

[openmind77]

I’m sorry but your proposition is ridiculous from a Catholic
point of view. Jesus as an all knowing omnipotent God
is not going to “correct Himself” as He makes no
mistakes. And if had wanted wiggle room He would
have said so.

As far as His Word goes- that is not correctable either.
He sent His Advocate-His Paraclete to assure
His Word would be spread without error.
That is why He told His Apostles not to worry
about what to say- the Holy Spirit would say it all.

I did not say Jesus would correct himself. I said he would correct the Bible or Church interpretations of the Bible.

For instance, Jesus never said that there is no reincarnation - what if he does say that reincarnation is a fact when he returns?

He is not allowed to do that, since you have already decided that everything in it is complete and true?

 

[marywarfield]

I did not say Jesus would correct himself. I said he would correct the Bible or Church interpretations of the Bible.

For instance, Jesus never said that there is no reincarnation - what if he does say that reincarnation is a fact when he returns?

He is not allowed to do that, since you have already decided that everything in it is complete and true?

Again I repeat. Since Jesus is God and Jesus is the Word
and the Word is the Bible and we’ve already determined
Fid is omnipotent and Jesus says He is the Final
Word how could the Word get His Wird wrong or
change His teaching which He Himself claimed
was final two thousand years ago?

Your question makes no sense to me still.

 

[SecretCatholic]

I’m sorry but your proposition is ridiculous from a Catholic
point of view. Jesus as an all knowing omnipotent God
is not going to “correct Himself” as He makes no
mistakes. And if had wanted wiggle room He would
have said so.

As far as His Word goes- that is not correctable either.
He sent His Advocate-His Paraclete to assure
His Word would be spread without error.
That is why He told His Apostles not to worry
about what to say- the Holy Spirit would say it all.

I understand your viewpoint, and share it, as a Catholic. But I also understand what “openmind77” might be saying: What if Jesus revealed to us something that is not in scripture, not necessarily against it, but completely different from what we expect. Actually, I think this is very likely, if not most probable, considering that the church clearly admits that not everything- in fact, not much- has been revealed about the spiritual realm.

I did not say Jesus would correct himself. I said he would correct the Bible or Church interpretations of the Bible.

For instance, Jesus never said that there is no reincarnation - what if he does say that reincarnation is a fact when he returns?

He is not allowed to do that, since you have already decided that everything in it is complete and true?

Jesus can definitely reveal something that is not known or not understood completely. That is NOT against church teaching. But if it is outright contradictory, then you have to question the authority of the church who has kept Jesus’ teachings and legacy. It’s not as if Buddhism also lays a claim to Jesus. If it did, I could certainly see what you’re saying. But if the church is wrong on what it has deemed infallible, then its whole authority begins to come into question and then you’re left with that which is something other than Christianity.

At that point, one would have to choose between the authority of this figure claiming to be Jesus, or this organization claiming to exist on Jesus’ authority and represent him on Earth. You can’t really have both. At best, the Catholic church would be based on false fundamentals and then have been “a church”, no more authentic than any other, but certainly not “the church”.

 

[marywarfield]

I understand your viewpoint, and share it, as a Catholic. But I also understand what “openmind77” might be saying: What if Jesus revealed to us something that is not in scripture, not necessarily against it, but completely different from what we expect. Actually, I think this is very likely, if not most probable, considering that the church clearly admits that not everything- in fact, not much- has been revealed about the spiritual realm.

Jesus can definitely reveal something that is not known or not understood completely. That is NOT against church teaching. But if it is outright contradictory, then you have to question the authority of the church who has kept Jesus’ teachings and legacy. It’s not as if Buddhism also lays a claim to Jesus. If it did, I could certainly see what you’re saying. But if the church is wrong on what it has deemed infallible, then its whole authority begins to come into question and then you’re left with that which is something other than Christianity.

At that point, one would have to choose between the authority of this figure claiming to be Jesus, or this organization claiming to exist on Jesus’ authority and represent him on Earth. You can’t really have both. At best, the Catholic church would be based on false fundamentals and then have been “a church”, no more authentic than any other, but certainly not “the church”.

Jesus does reveal Himself more fully whenever we are
bogged down: slavery, Immaculate Conception, etc.
But those areas are matters of evolved theological understanding
and into tradition not Scripture based. Obviously if
we were Sola Scriptura we would be proponents
of slavery as the Bible most definitely is.

 

[openmind77]

I understand your viewpoint, and share it, as a Catholic. But I also understand what “openmind77” might be saying: What if Jesus revealed to us something that is not in scripture, not necessarily against it, but completely different from what we expect. Actually, I think this is very likely, if not most probable, considering that the church clearly admits that not everything- in fact, not much- has been revealed about the spiritual realm.

Jesus can definitely reveal something that is not known or not understood completely. That is NOT against church teaching. But if it is outright contradictory, then you have to question the authority of the church who has kept Jesus’ teachings and legacy. It’s not as if Buddhism also lays a claim to Jesus. If it did, I could certainly see what you’re saying. But if the church is wrong on what it has deemed infallible, then its whole authority begins to come into question and then you’re left with that which is something other than Christianity.

At that point, one would have to choose between the authority of this figure claiming to be Jesus, or this organization claiming to exist on Jesus’ authority and represent him on Earth. You can’t really have both. At best, the Catholic church would be based on false fundamentals and then have been “a church”, no more authentic than any other, but certainly not “the church”.

I agree with much of what you say. However I don’t see why adding a belief such as reincarnation should make your religion something other than Christianity. I don’t think reincarnation contradicts anything fundamental in the Bible (although it may contradict the Church teachings).

When the Christ returns and if he teaches something different like this, you will have to make the choice and decide who you want to follow - the Christ or the dogma. In fact this may result in some kind of schism in the Church, if some people insist that what is currently taught is complete and fully true.

 

[marywarfield]

I agree with much of what you say. However I don’t see why adding a belief such as reincarnation should make your religion something other than Christianity. I don’t think reincarnation contradicts anything fundamental in the Bible (although it may contradict the Church teachings).

When the Christ returns and if he teaches something different like this, you will have to make the choice and decide who you want to follow - the Christ or the dogma. In fact this may result in some kind of schism in the Church, if some people insist that what is currently taught is complete and fully true.

Yes it contradicts the Bible. And is not desirable as
attested to by Buddhists. Lol.

1. We live once in this earthly plain.
2. The Bible speaks clearly against pantheism
   which reincarnation presupposes.

 

[openmind77]

Yes it contradicts the Bible. And is not desirable as
attested to by Buddhists. Lol.

1. We live once in this earthly plain.
2. The Bible speaks clearly against pantheism
   which reincarnation presupposes.

If you say something contradicts the Bible, it is always best if you mention Chapter/Verse that is contradicted.

I don’t want to make this thread a discussion on reincarnation, but just to answer you - reincarnation may not be desirable when compared to eternal heaven but it is definitely preferable to eternal hell. BTW, I don’t know where you got the idea that reincarnation presupposes pantheism.

 

[steve_b]

How do we know we’re correct, let alone following the full truth?

Here’s the answer I would give.

The Church has been Catholic from the 1st century. The English word Catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means

So one THEN can ask, where does kata holos appear in scripture and particularly kata holos ekklesia ?

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" = Kataholos Church.

Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. He was ordained by the apostles, and was a direct disciple of St John. It was in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christian Acts 11:26 . And Ignatius in his writings uses both “Christian” and “Catholic Church” in his writings.

• St Ignatius, uses Christian (ch 2) and Catholic Church (ch 8) Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians (ch 3) . As an aside, where would Ignatius learn to teach that warning and corresponding consequence for one’s soul, for commiting and remaining in the sin of schism / division from the Catholic Church? Paul condemned division / dissention from the Church Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 and Jesus does NOT approve of division in His Church John 17:20-23 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus John 16:12-15 no one can say the HS inspired all the division we see today in Christianity. There is no expiration date to that warning and condemnation
• St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
• Muratorian canon earlychristianwritings.co…uratorian.html uses authority of “Catholic Church”
• Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm”]Chapter 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm”]Chapter 3, v 2-3]
• Cyprian~250 a.d. calls the Church the Catholic Church Epistle 54
• The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
• Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (ch 5 v6)
• etc

The same Church Pope Francis is over today, 267th successor to St Peter.

Jesus started one Church. The Catholic Church. He gave all His promises to His Church. Jesus does NOT approve of division in His Church John 17:20-23 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus John 16:12-15 no one can say the HS inspired them to divide from the Catholic Church especially when considering the scandal of all the division we see that is called Protestantism. As you can see from the links above from Paul, which ultimately came from Jesus, division is condemned as are those who do it and remain in it. For 2000 years division from the Catholic Church has been condemned. There is no expiration date to that. I’m thinking why would ANYONE go against Jesus?

In a nutshell that’s the answer I would give.*

 

[Sochi]

How do we know we’re correct, let alone following the full truth?

Environmental factors do play a part of what we are open to accept, right? For example, reincarnation would probably be a lot easier to accept in other parts of the world than where mainstream Western ideas exist.

That is primarily your decision, unless you decide to abdicate your ability to think. A very useful book in this regard, used even in Catholic comparative religion classes despite its unfortunate title, can be found here. It addresses many of the considerations such as the ones you mention in a very readable, yet highly annotated and scholarly way. You will find that considerations you never thought of enter into your very important question. Also it is endorsed by many faith leaders. Our multi faith book club is enjoying the heck out of it right now!

 

[Lion_Heart]

Real Catholics follow the Christ who is not contradictory and who already has given His fullness of truth to His Church.

The dogma and doctrine which She teaches through Her Popes infallibly to the whole Church has already been protected by Him from error in installing His first Pope as Christ established His Church with four promises to St Peter:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve Apostles].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So God the Son, the Christ, has ensured that dogma and doctrine on faith and morals taught to the whole Church in His Name by His Popes magisterially are “bound in heaven” by Himself, and not open to error. Fantasizing won’t help us to know or follow His truth.

Greetings in Christ Abu,

According to your statement; “God the Son, the Christ, has ensured that dogma and doctrine on faith and morals taught to the whole Church in His Name by His Popes magisterially are ‘bound in heaven’ by Himself, and not open to error.”

Abu, in general I agree with your above statements.
I believe; in our RCC still we have some room for improvements.
In my opinion, something is not exactly perfect in our RCC system.
The fruits of our acts SHOW us the truth.

The doctrines of salvation are the heart of the gospel.

Concerning salvation, in our Catholic Church there MUST only be ONE SET of official Church teaching.
This is where Apostolic Succession, the Pope, Magisterium, the College of Cardinals come in.

LET US SEE THE FRUITS:

THE FACTS: ACCORDING TO THE TEACHING OF SALVATION IN OUR CHURCH:

FIRST SET OF DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS OF SALVATION:
In my opinion: These doctrines are genuine Church doctrines, concerning our salvation, THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH!!!
Faith in God’s grace alone, and by Christ’s merit alone. = Salvation.
All our works are done for: The GLORY OF GOD!!!

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?

We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasize mine.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church:

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.

Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we believe: Work is condition of our salvation, then our works can NEVER BE UP TO THE ABOVE STANDARDS because we do it for ourselves to purchase salvation not for love and for the Glory of God, and ALL our work goes up in smoke at the judgment. In reference 1 Cor.3:11-15.

CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASIZE: This is THE KEY to do supernatural merit that God accepts and recognize!!! – There is NO other way to achieve supernatural merit which is the only good works.

KEY POINTS:
“There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?”

1. We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing the law) but by FAITH in Christ.
2. Whatever in the justified PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
3. Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION.
4. Justification/salvation ALWAYS remains the UNMERITED gift of grace.

These above are, the ORIGINAL doctrines of the salvation of the Catholic Church, the Church which Christ has founded. These doctrines are still in operation today, and will be in the future until Christ will return.

SECOND SET OF DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS OF SALVATION:
This set of salvation doctrines/teaching is the so called “DO – IT – YOURSELF” salvation or “WORK SALVATION” which is:
Faith in God’s grace, and Christ’s merit + our own merit. = Salvation.
All our works are done for: The purchase of salvation.

CCC [1821] … “In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s ETERNAL REWARD FOR THE GOOD WORKS ACCOMPLISHED with the grace of Christ.”

CCC [2027] “No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we CAN MERIT for ourselves and for others ALL THE GRACES NEEDED TO ATTAIN ETERNAL LIFE, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Quote: Apologetics and Catholic Doctrines 2001 Edition.
Page 444
“The just man BY GOOD WORKS TRULY MERITS ETERNAL LIFE, an increase of Sanctifying Grace and of glory hereafter.”

KEY POINTS:

1. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.”
2. The just man BY GOOD WORKS TRULY MERITS ETERNAL LIFE.
3. Apart from the initial grace, we CAN MERIT for ourselves and for others ALL THE GRACES NEEDED TO ATTAIN ETERNAL LIFE.

The PARADOX:

a. The MINORITY of the Catholics believe the salvation doctrines of our own Catholic Church. – The first set.

b. The MAJOROTY of the Catholics believe some form of a “do – it – yourself” salvation. – This second set.

c. ALL PROTESTANTS, (Evangelicals, Pentecostals) believe the salvation doctrines of our Catholic Church. – The first set.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

CONCERNING THE ABOVE SO CALLED: “DO – IT – YOURSELF” SALVATION, PLEASE MEDITATE ON THE FOLLOWING FOUR QUOTES:

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE By Peter Kreeft pages 230, 248, 249.
Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely read Catholic authors today.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives. The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J.

Quote: “The mistakes of the Corinthians were mistakes of addition; the mistakes of the Galatians was subtraction. The Corinthians had polluted the gospel. The Galatians had abandoned it for another religion, “a different gospel.”

No mistake could be more serious. Yet as we shall see, this is the single most common mistake in the Church today.

Galatians, like Romans, is about SALVATION BY FAITH.
The Galatians so missed this CENTRAL POINT that Paul called their heresy of self-salvation “another gospel” that is another religion, NOT Christianity.

MANY RELIGIOUSLY UNEDUCATED CATHOLICS still believe this Galatian heresy today.

Not a small minority but a large majority of the Catholics today not only don’t know the basic doctrines of the Catholic theology anymore, they don’t even know how to get to Heaven!

Until this unbelievable failure is remedied, it is pointless to pray to God for ecumenical peace and reunion between Christian churches.

It is not clear that one who does not even know how to get to Heaven can accurately be called a Christian.

I am not suggesting, as many Protestant Fundamentalists do, that most Catholics are not saved.

But I am suggesting that perhaps most will be saved as good pagans, as “anonymous Christians” rather than as Catholic Christians.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

THE CATHOLIC ENCYLOPEDIA teaches the same thing as Peter Kreeft. Not exactly in the same diplomatic manner.

Quote: “Most Catholics are doomed to eternal damnation.” End quote.

Quote: Scripture and Vatican II: A very incomplete journey. by Fr Brendan Byrne SJ

Brendan Byrne, S.J., is professor of New Testament at Jesuit Theological College, within the United Faculty of Theology, Parkville, Melbourne, Australia.
Pope John Paul II named him a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission in 1990.

Quote: “It has to be said that the task of promoting the kind of biblical literacy asked for at Vatican II has received LITLE help and NO SMALL DEGREE OF HINDRANCE from prevailing tendencies in the Roman Curia.

The 1993 document of the Biblical Commission stands on a lonely eminence in the regard-and even it could have been negative in tone had not SEVERAL of the members of the Commission fought LONG and HARD to exclude gratuitous judgments in many areas.

THE HANDLING OF SCRIPTURE IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (1994) IS SIMPLY DISGRACEFUL and in many respects regresses not merely behind Vatican II but Divino Affante Spiritu itself.

When I asked at a session of the Biblical Commission why that Commission was not being employed or at least consulted during the preparation of the Catechism, my question was received in sullen silence: I HAVE VENTURED UPON SOME INTER-CURIAL TURF WAR.

JESUS AGAINST THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES in Matthew 23, in my own Church I find myself unable to do so any longer:
THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES OCCUPY THE CHAIR OF MOSES.

You MUST therefore do what they tell you and listen to what they say; but do not be guided by what they do since they DO NOT practice what they preach.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

St. Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer, Funder of the Opus Dei.
Quote: “As I have not ceased to warn you, the evil comes from within (the church) and from very high up, …” End quote.

We can read the same warnings REPEATEDLY and CONTINUALLY throughout the Bible.

FOR EXAMPLE: Acts 20:29-32; Matt.7:15-16; Matt.24:4, 11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 1 Tim.4:1-3; 2 Pet.2:1-3; Jude 4.

2 Pet.2:1-3; “But there WERE also false prophets among the people, even as there WILL BE false teachers AMONG YOU, who will SECRETLY bring in destructive HERESIES, … and MANY will follow their destructive ways.”

Jude 4; “Certain people have SECRETLY INFILTRATED AMONG YOU.”

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

Please don’t be deceived by having a false security and to hide under Christ’s promise: “Even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
The Body of Christ the Universal (Catholic) Church has that promise.

The Catholic Church is only a part of the Body of Christ, the Universal (Catholic) Church. – This is Catholic teaching. [CCC 818]; [CCC 819]; [CCC 1271]

There is NO class system in the Body of Christ, the Church which Christ has founded. The Protestants are absolutely EQUAL with us in the Universal (Catholic) Church.

If we want the safest security, put our faith into the Word of God (John 5:24).

Obey God’s command given to us for our protection in 1 Thess.5:21, in the way as it described in Acts 17:11 and in 1 John 2:26-27 and accept the teaching and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit as it is described in 1 John 2:26-27.

And then AFTER THE TESTS we will know the doctrines of our Catholic Church and the doctrines of our uninvited guests.

The test PRECEDES the knowledge and the ability to distinguish between Church doctrines and the doctrines of our uninvited guests.

So, don’t make the fatal mistake, that you think you can do the test in the light of the Church doctrines, because the test is to DISTINGUISH between Church doctrines and secretly brought in doctrines of demons PRESENTED as genuine Church doctrines.

THIRD SET OF DOCTRINES/TEACHINGS OF SALVATION:
We could call this teaching of salvation: Universal Salvation.

L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 05/22/1984
Quote: “MASONS ARE SONS OF GOD THE FATHER.”

[CCC 841] “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by John Paul II,
Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. 1994
Quote: “BUDDHISM IS A RELIGION OF SALVATION.”

Ratzinger. Declaration Dominus Iesus on the Unicity and Salvific Unuversality of Jesus Christ and the Church, 6 August 2000
Quote: “MANY FALSE RELIGIONS FALL WITHIN THE PLAN OF SALVATION … NON-CHRISTIANS CAN BE SAVED AS SUCH.”

L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 07/06/1980.
Quote: “ALL MEN ARE SAVED.”

Ratzinger. Principles of Catholic Theology Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987
Quote: “THE GOD KHRISHNA IS A SYMBOL OF CHRIST AND REALITY.”

L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 11/01/1993
Quote: “ALL DECEASED MEN ARE STANDING BEFORE GOD AS SAINTS.”

KEY POINTS:

1. Buddhism is a religion of salvation. (In fact, ALL religion.)
2. ALL men are saved.
3. ALL deceased men are standing before God as saints.

FACTS:
The doctrines/teaching of salvation is THE heart of the Gospel, yet in our Catholic Church there are three different sets of salvation doctrines/teaching are in circulation which are in contradiction with each other.

Abu, you have stated; “God the Son, the Christ, has ensured that dogma and doctrine on faith and morals taught to the whole Church in His Name by His Popes magisterially are ‘bound in heaven’ by Himself, and not open to error.”

Let us say; the Popes and the Magisterium teaches only the truth, nothing but the truth.

What is the reason then of the following situation in our Church???

Quote: “The mistakes of the Corinthians were mistakes of addition; the mistakes of the Galatians was subtraction. The Corinthians had polluted the gospel. The Galatians had abandoned it for another religion, “a different gospel.”

No mistake could be more serious. Yet as we shall see, this is the single most common mistake in the Church today.

Galatians, like Romans, is about SALVATION BY FAITH.
The Galatians so missed this CENTRAL POINT that Paul called their heresy of self-salvation “another gospel” that is another religion, NOT Christianity.

MANY RELIGIOUSLY UNEDUCATED CATHOLICS still believe this Galatian heresy today.

Not a small minority but a large majority of the Catholics today not only don’t know the basic doctrines of the Catholic theology anymore, they don’t even know how to get to Heaven!

I am not suggesting, as many Protestant Fundamentalists do, that most Catholics are not saved.

But I am suggesting that perhaps most will be saved as good pagans, as “anonymous Christians” rather than as Catholic Christians.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Abu, you have stated;
Real Catholics follow the Christ who is not contradictory and who already has given His fullness of truth to His Church.

I agree with you Abu. For example; our RCC has the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH about the doctrines of our salvation. – (The first set. All our works are done for: The GLORY OF GOD!!!)

Yet as Dr. Peter Kreeft who is a member of the Catholic Education Resource Center, explains: “Galatians, like Romans, is about SALVATION BY FAITH.
The Galatians so missed this CENTRAL POINT that Paul called their heresy of self-salvation “another gospel” that is another religion, NOT Christianity.

MANY RELIGIOUSLY UNEDUCATED CATHOLICS still believe this Galatian heresy today.” – (The second set. All our works are done for: The purchase of salvation.)

QUESTION
What is the reason and who are responsible for the above situation in our Church???

Abu, do you have any answer to the above question?
We all welcome any ones answer to the above question.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Abu]

Lion Heart #39
don’t make the fatal mistake, that you think you can do the test in the light of the Church doctrines, because the test is to DISTINGUISH between Church doctrines and secretly brought in doctrines of demons PRESENTED as genuine Church doctrines.

The Apostolic Constitution *Fidei Depositum *of St John Paul II declares that the CCC is “a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine…” There are no serious “mistakes” in doctrine or dogma.

The Magisterium teaches truth in dogma and doctrine and only dissenters try to state otherwise.
As James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

God “will award to every man what his acts have deserved.” (Rom 2:6).

“The apostle notes that ‘there is a graciousness, then, in God, and there is also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away, his graciousness is for thee, only so long as thou dost continue in His grace; if not, thou too shall be shalt be pruned away’ (Rom 11:22). Paul wrote this to people who were already ‘saved’, in a state of grace – a grace they could lose, becoming ‘unsaved’.”

Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.).

The Church does NOT allow anyone to believe that only Catholics may be saved. It is in no sense an allowed “opinion”. Never does dogma or defined doctrine allow of contrary “opinions”.

She specifically teaches in Vatican II, Lumen Gentium #16: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”