Are our artistic interpretations of angels accurate?

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You are not thinking about why someone would make an image of a bird or a fish. That why is the whole point of the commandment. The image of the fish or the bird is made for the purpose of serving it as if it were God, or a god.
If you made an image of a bird and put it away and forgot about it according to your idea, you have broken the commandment.
The commandment is about why the image is made, it is not about making an image for no reason.
Ironically you seem stuck on birds and fish, which is why I made the analogy of the father commanding his children to stay away from strangers. Why the son talks to strangers is irrelevant, the father knows the inherent danger in doing this and has told him not to do it. And so I ask again; Has the son disobeyed his father? Is the son right to talk to strangers?
 
Odd, my 2nd commandment tells me not to take the name of my Lord God in vain. I am SURE that having a statue of a saint is not taking the name of the Lord God in vain unless of course it was a talking statue, and I have not seen any of those in my parish yet. 😃
 
LOL… I think our Just a fellah is here to stir things up- why else would he be quoting the Second commandment in Judaism instead of Catholicism… the difference of course is Jesus Christ who freed us from the Law by His new commandment summing all into One… if you live by the laws of Judaism- you probably should not be making any graven images or idols.:eek:. but if you are Catholic and therefore Christian… look around you at all the inspiration-including saints that were directed by God to paint what they were shown to share with the world… does the Sacred Heart of Jesus ring a bell…👍
 
Odd, my 2nd commandment tells me not to take the name of my Lord God in vain. I am SURE that having a statue of a saint is not taking the name of the Lord God in vain unless of course it was a talking statue, and I have not seen any of those in my parish yet. 😃
You are right; it is odd because according to The King James Bible, The American Standard Bible, The English Standard Bible and any other bible I have ever read it’s the 3rd Commandment that deals with not taking the Lord’s name in vain. Which version of Bible are you referring to?
 
LOL… I think our Just a fellah is here to stir things up- why else would he be quoting the Second commandment in Judaism instead of Catholicism… the difference of course is Jesus Christ who freed us from the Law by His new commandment summing all into One… if you live by the laws of Judaism- you probably should not be making any graven images or idols.:eek:. but if you are Catholic and therefore Christian… look around you at all the inspiration-including saints that were directed by God to paint what they were shown to share with the world… does the Sacred Heart of Jesus ring a bell…👍
Truly, I am not here to stir things up. I am a Catholic, who knows little about Judaism, who is looking to reconcile the fact that the 2nd Commandment written in the Holy Bible seems to have been at least ignored if not reversed. This Forum has allowed me to condense this conundrum into the following analogy. If you could see your way to responding to the two questions I’ve asked at the end of I would be very grateful;

If your premise is this;
God tells us “You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them” We make a likeness of a thing that is in Heaven above and when asked why we disobeyed God we reply “But God told us we could not make and serve that likeness.”

Consider this;
A father tells his son and daughter “Do not talk to strangers, even if they honour me with their words: Do not go with them or do their bidding.” The son talks to a stranger. His sister asks why he disobeyed their Father and the son replies “But our father told us we could not talk to and do the bidding of strangers.” Has the son disobeyed his father? Is he right to talk to strangers?
 
Just a fellah…:). I understand that you are trying to make a point… and yet the two are not the same- the first is about the Creator of all bringing order to a disordered world… setting rules to give focus and Faith-and cleansing of rampant idol worship- different gods for everything… very strict rules for superstitious people who were susceptible to such influences… it was all a progression-and when the time was right to move from the fear of God to the love of God- He sent his Son… who changed the world and freed us from the Law by summing it up into one… there is one catch- we have to believe and know Jesus is His Son…otherwise you should still be living those laws and fear God’s wrath- however God knows the heart,and the intent-and Divine mercy prevails… so it’s a moot point … the second is about a very human dad who gives instructions because he fears the unknown- fears things he can’t control so he lays down strict rules without explaining why…and as humans do- the child exercised his own judgement-not knowing the why…and that’s the difference… God always explains the Why-first and foremost IAM the Lord Thy God-thou shalt not have strange gods before me…-there is no unknown- and God does not fear… He loves us… warts and all… prior to Jesus - no one could look upon God’s face and live… after Jesus we are to seek God’s face… -and we do:thumbsup:
 
Just a fellah…:). I understand that you are trying to make a point… and yet the two are not the same- the first is about the Creator of all bringing order to a disordered world… setting rules to give focus and Faith-and cleansing of rampant idol worship- different gods for everything… very strict rules for superstitious people who were susceptible to such influences… it was all a progression-and when the time was right to move from the fear of God to the love of God- He sent his Son… who changed the world and freed us from the Law by summing it up into one… there is one catch- we have to believe and know Jesus is His Son…otherwise you should still be living those laws and fear God’s wrath- however God knows the heart,and the intent-and Divine mercy prevails… so it’s a moot point … the second is about a very human dad who gives instructions because he fears the unknown- fears things he can’t control so he lays down strict rules without explaining why…and as humans do- the child exercised his own judgement-not knowing the why…and that’s the difference… God always explains the Why-first and foremost IAM the Lord Thy God-thou shalt not have strange gods before me…-there is no unknown- and God does not fear… He loves us… warts and all… prior to Jesus - no one could look upon God’s face and live… after Jesus we are to seek God’s face… -and we do:thumbsup:
Firstly, thank you for addressing the point I am having trouble with as opposed to telling me how wrong I am.
Your point about progressing from Fear of God to Love of God struck home and I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and His arrival signalled a new chapter in our ever-evolving relationship with God. But there is also an aspect of our relationship that will never change. He is our Father and we are His children. You say my point is about God setting rules for susceptible people open to superstitious (nefarious) influences and that is true but you talk as if we, the people of today, have evolved to a stage where we are immune to nefarious influences. Yes, God does know the heart and the intent, He also knows, better than we, how insidious today’s Corruption can be especially when His children think they are mature enough to know when to discard the Commandments of their Father.
In my analogy the father gives the instruction not because he fears the unknown but because he knows what there is to fear. He knows the corruption his children are susceptible to much better than his children. And sometimes, as children, we must have faith that our Father Loves us and, due to our innocence, sometimes has to give an instruction without a “why”.
Again, thank you I really enjoyed your response.
 
Ironically you seem stuck on birds and fish, which is why I made the analogy of the father commanding his children to stay away from strangers. Why the son talks to strangers is irrelevant, the father knows the inherent danger in doing this and has told him not to do it. And so I ask again; Has the son disobeyed his father? Is the son right to talk to strangers?
No need for analogies, it is very simple. The commandment is about not bowing and serving idols. Your particular idol may not be made of wood, it may be money etc. But according to you you only worship idols if they are art! The commandment is about not bowing and serving idols. It is either that of everybody’s child is going to hell for committing the mortal sin of drawing a bird, fish, etc.

You are not thinking about why someone would make an image of a bird or a fish. That why is the whole point of the commandment. The image of the fish or the bird is made for the purpose of serving it as if it were God, or a god.
If you made an image of a bird and put it away and forgot about it according to your idea, you have broken the commandment.
The commandment is about why the image is made, it is not about making an image for no reason.
 
You are right; it is odd because according to The King James Bible, The American Standard Bible, The English Standard Bible and any other bible I have ever read it’s the 3rd Commandment that deals with not taking the Lord’s name in vain. Which version of Bible are you referring to?
My brother in the Church, you need much guidance, maybe more then we can give you here. You might want to talk to your Priest about these problems you are having. It seems to me like more then trying to understand what the Church teaches, you want to decide what the Church teaches through the Bible. That is a very dangerous road to start down, and can lead one to many errors. As Catholics we need to accept that the Church, started by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, has all truth in her. Remember that we wrote the New Testament, and that the Bible is not the source and summit of our faith, that is our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament of the Alter.

The most important answer to your question is that you, like me, understand that the Holy Catholic Church has the right and authority to tell us, the lay faithful, what the bible means, correct? You do know that the King James Bible is not even a complete Bible right? It is missing 7 books and parts of a few others because Marty got a bug up his tunic and started playing “Fun with Exacto-knives”

I use the New American Bible, and if you do not have one please ask your priest about getting on after mass, most parishes will be happy to give you a free copy. The thing is that this does not matter which bible you use, it is how you choose to split up the commandments. If you go and ask a Jew what the first commandment is, they will tell you

“I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.”

There 2nd commandment is the Catholic first “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

In the short version, we just say “You shall have no other gods before me.” The reason that we split them up like this is not to hide anything, but because the bible has 14 statements listed and tells us there are 10 commandments. As you can guess, we can argue all day long about what the list should be, but somebody had to make a call. As you know as a Catholic, the Church was given the Keys to the Kingdom, and she alone has the right to decide these things for us.

Now to give you my personal answer to your question. I was a pagan and a witch for 19 years before I decided to come into the Holy Catholic Church, who alone has all truth in her. In those years as a pagan, I prayed to idols almost every day, and although it might have LOOKED like what was going on was the same as what you see in our parishes, nothing could be further from the truth. When I bowed to an Idol, I did not think that my god was someplace out there, I thought is was really in the statue. I believed that the statue was alive and could answer my prayers and help me in my life. I would bring them gems and other gifts in order to win their favor. Thinking that if I made the statue happy, I would get what I wanted.

More then any of that however, I would not just pray, but WORSHIP it. I would thank my god for giving me another day, and bow and beg my god to forgive me if I did not do their bidding and obey their commands. I am glad that I no longer do silly things like that. When I say a prayer at Church to a statue of the Blessed Mother, I understand that this statue I see before me is not Mary Most Holy, but just a statue made by humans. I also understand that Mary is just a creature, just like us, the angels and the saints. She is the most beautiful and perfect of Gods creatures, but she is still just a creature. I love her, so I talk to her, and ask her to pray for me to God. As in a Hail Mary “Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

It is no different then asking my friend to pray for me, or asking my priest to pray for me. I understand that Mary, my friend and my priest cannot help me, but I know that God can. As it says in the James 5:16 “The heartfelt prayer of someone upright works very powerfully.” Who is more upright then Mary, the Angels and the Saints? They are more alive then I am right now, they see the face of God almighty. Why would I not want to get their help in things?

In closing my Brother, please go and spend some time praying to our Lord and Savoir in the Eucharist. I promise you that you will feel better about all of this when you are done. Plus I am sure you can use a good “Son Tan” 🙂

Pax :signofcross:
 
If your premise is this;
God tells us “You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them” We make a likeness of a thing that is in Heaven above and when asked why we disobeyed God we reply “But God told us we could not make and serve that likeness.”

Consider this;
A father tells his son and daughter “Do not talk to strangers, even if they honour me with their words: Do not go with them or do their bidding.” The son talks to a stranger. His sister asks why he disobeyed their Father and the son replies “But our father told us we could not talk to and do the bidding of strangers.” Has the son disobeyed his father? Is he right to talk to strangers?
I get the strong idea that you think Catholics Worship Angels and Statues. They Do Not.

Perhaps you should read here: catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues
 
@ OP,

I highly doubt it.

In my belief, God, Satan, Angels, Demon, etc… are basically energy forces. That’s how alot of the Eastern religions would describe them. In my belief, these things are all “shapeshifters”. They can appear to you however you/they like.
 
@ OP,

I highly doubt it.

In my belief, God, Satan, Angels, Demon, etc… are basically energy forces. That’s how alot of the Eastern religions would describe them. In my belief, these things are all “shapeshifters”. They can appear to you however you/they like.
In my belief, these things are all “shapeshifters”. They can appear to you however you/they like.
Yeah right! Vampires, Zombies, DaVinci Code etc. Seriously friend; you watch too much TV and Movies.
 
My brother in the Church, you need much guidance, maybe more then we can give you here. You might want to talk to your Priest about these problems you are having. It seems to me like more then trying to understand what the Church teaches, you want to decide what the Church teaches through the Bible…

Thanks again. Your response contains many suggestions and I’ve tried to go with all of them, I’ll just blah out what they brought up;
Yes, I do need much guidance but I dare say that’s true of us all.
You say I “want to decide what the church teaches” That is not what I want; all I’m looking for is clarity through genuine discussion.
You say “the Bible is not the source and summit of our Faith” but it does contain the Word of God which is the source and summit of my Faith. And I understand the Church has the authority to interpret the Word Of God. But am I not obligated by Faith, even to a better understanding of God, to question what seems to me to be a reversal of His Word?
I took your advice and got my hands on a copy of the New American Bible and again, at your suggestion, have not concerned myself with the numbering or order of the 10 Commandments, just with The Word of God
Here is what I read;
Then God spoke all these words, saying, (Exodus 20:1)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth….” (Exodus 20:4)
God spoke these words, These are God’s Words, no matter where they’re written or how they’re interpreted or what anyone’s opinion of them are; They Are God’s Words.
He doesn’t just say “Don’t make a likeness and worship it as an Idol” He says don’t make an Idol or a likeness. Don’t do either; don’t make an Idol to worship or even a likeness of anything divine. In my earlier analogy the father tells his children don’t talk to strangers or do their bidding. That doesn’t mean you can talk to strangers as long as you don’t do their bidding. It is a clear unequivocal commandment; Don’t do one thing or the other!

You then go on to talk about how pagans worship idols and how that is different to what Catholics do. Again this is not my point, which is, and always has been, that no matter how you well one use’s these “likenesses of Heavenly Things”, the making of them is forbidden by The Word of God.
 
Speedy Pizza;8529523:
My brother in the Church, you need much guidance, maybe more then we can give you here. You might want to talk to your Priest about these problems you are having. It seems to me like more then trying to understand what the Church teaches, you want to decide what the Church teaches through the Bible…

Thanks again. Your response contains many suggestions and I’ve tried to go with all of them, I’ll just blah out what they brought up;
Yes, I do need much guidance but I dare say that’s true of us all.
You say I “want to decide what the church teaches” That is not what I want; all I’m looking for is clarity through genuine discussion.
You say “the Bible is not the source and summit of our Faith” but it does contain the Word of God which is the source and summit of my
Faith. And I understand the Church has the authority to interpret the Word Of God. But am I not obligated by Faith, even to a better understanding of God, to question what seems to me to be a reversal of His Word?
I took your advice and got my hands on a copy of the New American Bible and again, at your suggestion, have not concerned myself with the numbering or order of the 10 Commandments, just with The Word of God
Here is what I read;
Then God spoke all these words, saying, (Exodus 20:1)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth….” (Exodus 20:4)
God spoke these words, These are God’s Words, no matter where they’re written or how they’re interpreted or what anyone’s opinion of them are; They Are God’s Words.
He doesn’t just say “Don’t make a likeness and worship it as an Idol” He says don’t make an Idol or a likeness. Don’t do either; don’t make an Idol to worship or even a likeness of anything divine. In my earlier analogy the father tells his children don’t talk to strangers or do their bidding. That doesn’t mean you can talk to strangers as long as you don’t do their bidding. It is a clear unequivocal commandment; Don’t do one thing or the other!

You then go on to talk about how pagans worship idols and how that is different to what Catholics do. Again this is not my point, which is, and always has been, that no matter how you well one use’s these “likenesses of Heavenly Things”, the making of them is forbidden by The Word of God.

I can think of greater number of more descriptive things that the average person has access to in day to day living usage that could accurately be called an Idol than the mere symbolic imagery of religious paintings, icons and statues.

The glorification of T.V. media today as with movies, music, rock concerts and the sort have become a huge Idol to many people, though many would renounce such interests as being Idols. The relentless fascination and driven acquisition of materialistic goods and wealth in its numerous forms is another big Idol in today’s society. And perhaps the greatest Idol today masked under so many appearances is the glorification of Sex itself.

No human today is immune from any of these musings.

Virtually anything that can deceive and distract the human mind, heart and soul from their focus and rightful duty of loving and devoting their soul towards God can become an Idol.
 
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