Are our bodies like prison cells?

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tonyrey said:
Your question reminds me of the two prisoners: one saw bars and the other saw stars.
But you are looking inwards - and perhaps reaching a similar conclusion to Hamlet:

ā€œWhat a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animalsā€”and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust?ā€
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In other words our bodies are not prison cells unless we are incurably ill, in constant pain or unhappy for some other reason because there is so much to enjoy and appreciate in this world.
 
tonyrey said:
In other words our bodies are not prison cells unless we are incurably ill, in constant pain or unhappy for some other reason because there is so much to enjoy and appreciate in this world.
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šŸ‘
I donā€™t think that the Bible indicates the soul is imprisoned in the human body, to be released from the body upon death, as though the human body were of no concern to God. The Bible indicates that just the opposite is the case, that the human body does matter to God: ā€œDo you not realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you and whom you received from God?ā€ (1 Corinthians 6:19).
 
The inner life of man is greatly hindered in this life by the needs of the body. Thus, the Prophet devoutly prays that he may be set free from them, saying, ā€œLord, deliver me from my necessities!ā€ Woe to those who refuse to recognize their own wretchedness, and doubly woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life! For some cling so closely to it, that although by working or begging they can hardly win the bare necessities, they would yet be willing to live here for ever if it were possible, caring nothing for the Kingdom of God.

How crazy and lacking in faith are such people, who are so deeply engrossed in earthly affairs that they care for nothing but material things! These unhappy wretches will at length know to their sorrow how vile and worthless were the things that they loved. But the Saints of God and all the devoted friends of Christ paid little heed to bodily pleasures, nor to prosperity in this life, for all their hopes and aims were directed towards those good things that are eternal. Their whole desire raised them upward to things eternal and invisible, so that the love of things visible could not drag them down. My brother, do not lose hope of progress in the spiritual life; you have still time and opportunity.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter 22
 
Robert_Sock said:
The inner life of man is greatly hindered in this life by the needs of the body. Thus, the Prophet devoutly prays that he may be set free from them, saying, ā€œLord, deliver me from my necessities!ā€ Woe to those who refuse to recognize their own wretchedness, and doubly woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life! For some cling so closely to it, that although by working or begging they can hardly win the bare necessities, they would yet be willing to live here for ever if it were possible, caring nothing for the Kingdom of God.

How crazy and lacking in faith are such people, who are so deeply engrossed in earthly affairs that they care for nothing but material things! These unhappy wretches will at length know to their sorrow how vile and worthless were the things that they loved. But the Saints of God and all the devoted friends of Christ paid little heed to bodily pleasures, nor to prosperity in this life, for all their hopes and aims were directed towards those good things that are eternal. Their whole desire raised them upward to things eternal and invisible, so that the love of things visible could not drag them down. My brother, do not lose hope of progress in the spiritual life; you have still time and opportunity.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter 22
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You do realize just how out of context that quote is compared to the topic you have brought up with this thread, right Robert?
 
Robert_Sock said:
When you have posters glorifying this life, I think my post was relevant.

E.g.,
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So you claim that we, as humans, are morally obligated to NOT enjoy any of the copious gifts given to us here on earth? That we are intended to ignore, to destroy, to not thank God for the beautiful world, the wonderful comforts, and the mysteries of creation?

Robert, though I understand and am sympathetic with your intentions, are taking it too far.

Creation is made so beautiful for a purpose; that man may be edified by it and learn of the qualities of God. Yes, we are called to do penance, to make sacrifices, to become ā€œdead to the world,ā€ but that DOES NOT mean that the world is evil. That does not mean that we are called to be completely above the world. Quite the contrary, we are called to go down to the level of the world so as to evangelize to those who do not yet know Christ, and in doing that, we are also called to enjoy and be thankful for Godā€™s gifts here on earth.

Thus, the quote you drew from the Imitation of Christ is good and important, but irrelevant to the claim you make in the OP that our bodies are prisons. Rather, they are simply the step before eternal life, and we are called to make the most of our mortal lives while we can, so as to give the greatest glory to God.
 
dshix said:
So you claim that we, as humans, are morally obligated to NOT enjoy any of the copious gifts given to us here on earth? That we are intended to ignore, to destroy, to not thank God for the beautiful world, the wonderful comforts, and the mysteries of creation?

Robert, though I understand and am sympathetic with your intentions, are taking it too far.

Creation is made so beautiful for a purpose; that man may be edified by it and learn of the qualities of God. Yes, we are called to do penance, to make sacrifices, to become ā€œdead to the world,ā€ but that DOES NOT mean that the world is evil. That does not mean that we are called to be completely above the world. Quite the contrary, we are called to go down to the level of the world so as to evangelize to those who do not yet know Christ, and in doing that, we are also called to enjoy and be thankful for Godā€™s gifts here on earth.

Thus, the quote you drew from the Imitation of Christ is good and important, but irrelevant to the claim you make in the OP that our bodies are prisons. Rather, they are simply the step before eternal life, and we are called to make the most of our mortal lives while we can, so as to give the greatest glory to God.
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What do you if you suffer from panic attacks that will not ease up, like with me? They drive me to want to commit suicide, thatā€™s how bad they are. The passage I quoted speaks to me in ways it does not speak to the average person. Creation is anything but beautiful to me.
 
Robert_Sock said:
What do you if you suffer from panic attacks that will not ease up, like with me? They drive me to want to commit suicide, thatā€™s how bad they are. The passage I quoted speaks to me in ways it does not speak to the average person.
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Again, you change the topic.

Robert, you have started a thread. It is natural to assume that people will respond to the thread topic, and it would be greatly appreciated if you would respond to them in kind.

Donā€™t misunderstand me; I have compassion for your troubles. But it doesnā€™t make me or anyone else feel more inclined to feel sorry for you when you ignore logical posts that are made in opposition to your position.

Now, please respond to my post, and actually tell me how it is that my post is incorrect.
 
How can anybody be happy living in a world where over 9,500 innocent children die of starvation each and every day?
 
GEddie said:
And yet those children, if you could ask them, long to live not die!

ICXC NIKA
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It a gruesome, terrible death. The unnecessary pain and suffering is enough for me to hate this miserable and corrupt life.
 
There are two traditions in Christian thought:
  1. That mortal life and the world are a gift from God and a blessing, and it is impious to disparage them. This the thinking in most of the OT, and the thinking popular with most contemporary theologians.
  2. That the sorrows of this mortal life and the world are consequences of sin, and a kind of punishment and prison, and at best a temptation, which may lead to Hell. This thinking was particular prominent in the Middle Ages, but also suggested in some parts of the NT (and indeed, a few part of the OT).
I suggest there is no easy bridge between these two, except for the love of God and the desire for Heaven. Some people have looked at mortal life, and found it bad. Others have looked at it, and found it good, or at least they say they do. In reality, most of us know it is at least mixed, but one position or the other will dominate.

People with children tend tend to be morally obliged to articulate an optimistic view, even if they donā€™t believe it. Also people in advertising tends to promote an optimistic assumption of life (by pre-supposing that happiness is possible, and that if you do or buy X, you will access that happiness). A lot of music, though , especially Country and Metal, assumes a pessimistic view.

In the Middle Ages, if a person went around saying that this mortal life is a great blessing, they would be regarded as a worldly, an idiot, or a blasphemer. Today, if a person walks around saying this mortal life is a wretched imprisonment and an exile, they will be regarded as self-pitying, discouraging, and perhaps a blasphemer.

I have much stronger sympathy with the pessimistic assessment of the world. But I try not to articulate it much any more (except, perhaps to show sympathy where needed). The real truth is obvious to all. The tragedy of this mortal life is what it is, and, in the depths of our hearts, we all know what it is, or will all learn, eventually. There is nothing that needs to be proven.
 
Robert_Sock said:
It a gruesome, terrible death. The unnecessary pain and suffering is enough for me to hate this miserable and corrupt life.
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Robert, what do you suppose was the worst crime that has ever been committed?

Answer: The murder of God-made-man.

Yet we know that from this worst crime came the most wonderful result: the salvation of the human race!
If you contemplate the death and resurrection of Jesus each day and give thanks to Him, it might help alleviate your suffering from panic attacks. Not necessarily alleviate them directly, but I mean help you understand that God may also be able to bring some sort of good from them, just as He did with greater evils.
 
I often wonder why so many people still discuss with Robert Sock, because he is so close-minded. I clearly asked him to address my points in my last post, but he completely ignored it and made some obscure comment about suffering in the world

I am becoming increasingly convinced heā€™s nothing but a troll.
Please disprove me, Robert. Iā€™m losing confidence in you.
 
dshix said:
I often wonder why so many people still discuss with Robert Sock, because he is so close-minded. I clearly asked him to address my points in my last post, but he completely ignored it and made some obscure comment about suffering in the world

I am becoming increasingly convinced heā€™s nothing but a troll.
Please disprove me, Robert. Iā€™m losing confidence in you.
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If you want me to respond to your accusation that the world is not evil, I have been doing that by noting the evils that exist. We live in a world of good and evil, and itā€™s my contention that any world that contains the least amount of evil is worth wanting to escape fromā€“except our bodies prevent it.

As for another of your contentions that we were born to evangelize, well that may be your calling in life, but it certainly not the calling of all good Catholics. My calling, for example, is to live a life of solitude and prayer.
 
Robert_Sock said:
If you want me to respond to your accusation that the world is not evil, I have been doing that by noting the evils that exist. We live in a world of good and evil, and itā€™s my contention that any world that contains the least amount of evil is worth wanting to escape fromā€“except our bodies prevent it.

As for another of your contentions that we were born to evangelize, well that may be your calling in life, but it certainly not the calling of all good Catholics. My calling, for example, is to live a life of solitude and prayer.
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Thank you for saying that instead of ignoring me this time.

My next question for you is, how does the presence of evil in the world make the entire world evil? Surely you donā€™t contend that Satan is capable of completely corrupting Godā€™s creation?

In response to the second thing you said: I never said that everyone was born to evangelize. I did say that we are NOT born to completely separate ourselves from the world and hate the world; we were born in it for a purpose.
 
dshix said:
Thank you for saying that instead of ignoring me this time.

My next question for you is, how does the presence of evil in the world make the entire world evil? Surely you donā€™t contend that Satan is capable of completely corrupting Godā€™s creation?

In response to the second thing you said: I never said that everyone was born to evangelize. I did say that we are NOT born to completely separate ourselves from the world and hate the world; we were born in it for a purpose.
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Does one drop of deadly poison render an entire glass of water poison?
 
Robert_Sock said:
Does one drop of deadly poison render an entire glass of water poison?
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Robert, how has the entire human race been afflicted with a deadly poison?

Why would a loving Father allow such a catastrophe to occur?
 
tonyrey said:
Robert, how has the entire human race been afflicted with a deadly poison?

Why would a loving Father allow such a catastrophe to occur?
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The ā€˜deadly poisonā€™ resulted from the sin of Adam and Eve. How could a loving God inflict this Original Sin upon each and every human? But He did. Any way you look at it, evil is alive and well in our world.
 
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