Are Paul's teachings re:women still relevant?

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Kendy:
I should add that we shouldn’t go around changing diapers or the oil for the sake of gender equality. It’s not important to prove that we can do the same things. Whatever we do, our priority must be love. I guess so angry about this wife submission stuff that I forget that. :o

Kendy
You are correct we should not do something merely for the sake of gender equality or to prove ourselves equal to the opposite gender. But we shouldn’t make cut and dried statements as to what jobs belong to what gender.

There are very good reasons why men should be able to do most traditionally female jobs. What if he is a single parent? Will he have to marry a woman just to sew the buttons on his daughter’s jacket?

I am teaching my sons to wash clothes and cook. Hopefully, my daughters will learn to do basic car care.
 
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Kendy:
I should add that we shouldn’t go around changing diapers or the oil for the sake of gender equality. It’s not important to prove that we can do the same things. Whatever we do, our priority must be love. I guess so angry about this wife submission stuff that I forget that. :o

Kendy
And I would submit the reason I repair my wife’s car is that she is my queen and I wouldn’t want her to have to crawl under or deal with big cold steel wrenches.
 
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a_cermak:
Old Roman Catholic Church Utrecht line. Their sacraments are considered valid but illicit due to their priests not having permission from the Ordinary (in my case Cardinal George). My bro-in-law is a ORC priest, so obviously he officiated.

Pax,
Amy
That is what I thought. Oh, you are in Chicago … I have some friends that are clergy there.

I am concerned, however, about the egalitarian view that is being given. It seems to be contrary to the natural order. Why do you think otherwise?
 
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buffalo:
And I would submit the reason I repair my wife’s car is that she is my queen and I wouldn’t want her to have to crawl under or deal with big cold steel wrenches.
Now how can I argue with sweet logic like that.😃

For her own safety though, you might want to make certain that she can do things like change a tire by herself.
 
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Kendy:
I am sorry for the sarcasm, but frankly, I was just echoing back what I am hearing you say. Of course, that may not be what you mean to say, but it’s certainly sounds like “penises rule” to me.
There was nothing that could be read as sarcasm in any of my previous posts to this thread. My second post was simply a fact stated briefly to bring to your attention something I think it would be valuable in your consideration of the topic at hand.
 
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FCEGM:
There was nothing that could be read as sarcasm in any of my previous posts to this thread. My second post was simply a fact stated briefly to bring to your attention something I think it would be valuable in your consideration of the topic at hand.
I didn’t mean you were being sarcastic. I mean I was being sarcastic.

Kendy
 
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trogiah:
. . . So is it absolutely unthinkable that a woman could say something spirtually enlightening to a man? I do not feel a “yes” welling up with certainty in me
I don’t remember reading anywhere on this thread anything that would be in disagreement with you on that point. I believe both St. Teresa of Jesus and St. Catherine of Siena were used as prime examples of such women as bring spiritual enlightenment to others (male and female).

As for the rest of your comments, you might find these two articles of interest:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a49.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a51.htm
 
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FCEGM:
I don’t remember reading anywhere on this thread anything that would be in disagreement with you on that point. I believe both St. Teresa of Jesus and St. Catherine of Siena were used as prime examples of such women as bring spiritual enlightenment to others (male and female).

As for the rest of your comments, you might find these two articles of interest:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a49.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a51.htm
I read the articles with some interest and I thank you for sharing them. They do present some points of view I have not seen before.

I found the author’s contention that each of us is inescapably either male or female difficult to reconcile with Jesus’s response to the problem of the woman with 7 husbands. The author seems to flatly contradict the statement Jesus makes about “living like angels in heaven”

Also the author seemed to imply that God the Almighty is male rather than female, though I am not sure I understood the article clearly on that point.

Scripture is clear. Even though we do use metaphors, most notably addressing God as “Father”, none of these metaphors should make us consider God to be one gender over the other.

From Deuteronomy:
“You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore, 16 not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman.”

I think it is worth noting there is extensive reference to Wisdom as “She” in the book of Wisdom and the spirit of Wisdom from the Old Testament is closely identified with the Holy Spirit of the trinity. This is not to suggest that in fact the Holy Spirit is of the female gender (no more than male) but rather to suggest that it may be helpful to apply female metaphors to some aspects of God just as it is often helpful to refer to God as a loving father.

I still accept the church’s teaching that all priests should be male because that is what the church teaches and I am not convinced that is the wrong approach (some seem very convinced that is the wrong approach) but I still don’t find the various justifications for it to be fully convincing so if the teaching would change tomorrow, I would accept that too.

peace

Jim
 
I read the articles with some interest and I thank you for sharing them. They do present some points of view I have not seen before.

I found the author’s contention that each of us is inescapably either male or female difficult to reconcile with Jesus’s response to the problem of the woman with 7 husbands. The author seems to flatly contradict the statement Jesus makes about “living like angels in heaven”
No, there really isn’t a contradiction there, Jim. The Lord’s teaching is highlighting the fact that husbands and wives will no longer have the need for the marital act since all goods of this world, all right pleasure will be far surpassed in the enjoyment of the Beatific Vision. This doesn’t negate the sexual identity of those graced with that Vision, especially since the very God they now see is the One who created them - not incidentally - to be male or female.
Also the author seemed to imply that God the Almighty is male rather than female, though I am not sure I understood the article clearly on that point.

Scripture is clear. Even though we do use metaphors, most notably addressing God as “Father”, none of these metaphors should make us consider God to be one gender over the other.

From Deuteronomy:
“You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore, 16 not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman.”
It is not the Holy Spirit Who is identified as Wisdom, but the Lord Jesus Christ:
This is not to suggest that in fact the Holy Spirit is of the female gender (no more than male) but rather to suggest that it may be helpful to apply female metaphors to some aspects of God just as it is often helpful to refer to God as a loving father.
The late Roland Mushat Frye in his paper “Language for God and Feminist Language: A Literary and Rhetorical Analysis”, well illustrates that the distinctions between father metaphors and mother similies; a brief excerpt:

The Scriptures again and again use metaphor and naming to call God “Father”; occasionally they also compare him with a mother (whether avian or human) by the use of simile. The significant differences here are not simply a matter of keeping scores, where the comparisons to a mother are very few in proportion to the metaphoric identifications as “Father.” These significant differences are consistently expressed through appropriate rhetorical and linguistic forms: The basic distinction lies between the operations of simile/comparing (mother) and metaphor/naming (father), and the meanings they convey. . .

. . .the predicating metaphors God the Father and the Son of God become transparent to the divine reality, words by which the divine persons are called, addressed, recognized, or known. These expressions function as structural metaphors or foundational symbols and images, thereby forming the basis for the entire organism of beliefe, the vertebrate anatomy to which different parts of the living body of faith connect and through which they function. To alter or misapply such structural metaphors can cripple the whole body of meaning which they articulate emphasis mine]."

For a thorough treatment of the male-only priesthood, I highly recommend Fr. Manfre Hauke’s Women In the Priesthood?, published by Ignatius Press.
 
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mosher:
I am concerned, however, about the egalitarian view that is being given. It seems to be contrary to the natural order. Why do you think otherwise?
I do not see any conflict between the natural law and egalitarianism within the family.

Pax,
Amy
 
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FCEGM:
No, there really isn’t a contradiction there, Jim. The Lord’s teaching is highlighting the fact that husbands and wives will no longer have the need for the marital act since all goods of this world, all right pleasure will be far surpassed in the enjoyment of the Beatific Vision. This doesn’t negate the sexual identity of those graced with that Vision, especially since the very God they now see is the One who created them - not incidentally - to be male or female.
I never thought of sexual identity being negated but I still believe that identity is subordinate to the identity or being one of God’s children.
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FCEGM:
It is not the Holy Spirit Who is identified as Wisdom, but the Lord Jesus Christ:
I think there are references to both being Wisdom, which shouldn’t be suprising since they are both part of the Trinity which means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are closely identified with each other.
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FCEGM:
The late Roland Mushat Frye in his paper “Language for God and Feminist Language: A Literary and Rhetorical Analysis”, well illustrates that the distinctions between father metaphors and mother similies; a brief excerpt:

The Scriptures again and again use metaphor and naming to call God “Father”; occasionally they also compare him with a mother (whether avian or human) by the use of simile. The significant differences here are not simply a matter of keeping scores, where the comparisons to a mother are very few in proportion to the metaphoric identifications as “Father.” These significant differences are consistently expressed through appropriate rhetorical and linguistic forms: The basic distinction lies between the operations of simile/comparing (mother) and metaphor/naming (father), and the meanings they convey. . .

. . .the predicating metaphors God the Father and the Son of God become transparent to the divine reality, words by which the divine persons are called, addressed, recognized, or known. These expressions function as structural metaphors or foundational symbols and images, thereby forming the basis for the entire organism of beliefe, the vertebrate anatomy to which different parts of the living body of faith connect and through which they function. To alter or misapply such structural metaphors can cripple the whole body of meaning which they articulate emphasis mine]."

For a thorough treatment of the male-only priesthood, I highly recommend Fr. Manfre Hauke’s Women In the Priesthood?, published by Ignatius Press.
I must admit to being left in the dust a little by some of the vocabulary hear, and perhaps we have drifted off topic but I am curious about one thing: Metaphors and similes aside, is God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth, male rather than female?

-Jim
 
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a_cermak:
I do not see any conflict between the natural law and egalitarianism within the family.

Pax,
Amy
Because of another persons use of the word I would like to know what you mean by egalitarianism because sometimes it is used in many different ways. I just want to make sure we are speaking the same language.
 
I must admit to being left in the dust a little by some of the vocabulary hear, and perhaps we have drifted off topic but I am curious about one thing: Metaphors and similes aside, is God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth, male rather than female?
No, God is Spirit. But in speaking of Him or writing of Him in the written revelation of the Old and New Testaments (which are, after all, inspired by Him and thus reflect His choice in Self-identification) Who He is - and His operations in Creation - is best and most suitably expressed in human language through masculine metaphors. (The article you read by “Padro” speaks to this suitability.)
 
What do you all think about women writing books on spirituality to a general audience?

petra
 
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petra:
What do you all think about women writing books on spirituality to a general audience?

petra
Didn’t St. Catherine of Sienna write books on spirituality to a general audience?

Kendy
 
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mosher:
Yes. While it is not a popular thing to say these days but there is a problem with the idea that we can obscure gender roles and have a healthy society. The establishment of the gender roles is a direct response for the fall. God establishes this hierarchy for a purpose and that purpose was not to punnish but rather to help persons to live again as if the fall had not occured.
I totally agree. I personally believe this is one of the key areas in which the Church is failing to be obedient to God.

While it is true that the Catholic Church has not, and in fact, cannot, officially teach anything that is contrary to God’s will; nevertheless the Church in the last 50 years has in general failed to teach the Biblical standard about the differences in role between men and women. St Paul and St Peter are absolutely explicit about these different roles and they even give theological reasons for them. Today the Church seems so afraid of being politically incorrect that it fails to teach and enforce what Scripture says.

I really believe that this failure and its consequences, with the degrading of the father’s role as protector and head of the family, has had catastrophic consequences. Not only does dad’s emasculation result in the rise of rebellious and violent children, but it also results ultimately in men who, failing to understand their true leadership role, become emotionally frustrated and take it out on the wife through violence. This whole area needs to be re-examined by the Church and a return to Scriptural teaching is essential.
 
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trogiah:
I never thought of sexual identity being negated but I still believe that identity is subordinate to the identity or being one of God’s children.

I think there are references to both being Wisdom, which shouldn’t be suprising since they are both part of the Trinity which means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are closely identified with each other.

I must admit to being left in the dust a little by some of the vocabulary hear, and perhaps we have drifted off topic but I am curious about one thing: Metaphors and similes aside, is God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth, male rather than female?

-Jim
It is important to note that God desires us to refer to Him as a him. It is also essential to theology that we understand our relationship to God as he who is Father as opposed to Mother. This is one of the things that was emphasised by the Early Church Fathers in defense of the faith against the Gnostics.
 
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mosher:
It is important to note that God desires us to refer to Him as a him. It is also essential to theology that we understand our relationship to God as he who is Father as opposed to Mother. This is one of the things that was emphasised by the Early Church Fathers in defense of the faith against the Gnostics.
I do acknowledge that Jesus used the term Abba to address God, he must have preferred that term and it makes a lot of sense to me. Not because it is a male noun but because it is noun closely associated with both power and love.

I don’t see anything in Scripture where God demands to be addressed as male and at least one Scripture where God specifically demands to not be considered male (see the quote from deuteronomy above.) I would say that correct theology demands that we view God as absolute power as well as absolute love but not as absolutely male (nor female for that matter)

peace

Jim
 
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