Are People Participating?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Many tout the Novus Ordo as allowing people to participate more fully or more actively. Well, do they? I go to Church every Sunday and I am often the only one singing. Most don’t even pick up the missalette or hymnal. The few that do pick up the missalette or hymnal, most don’t sing and a few just move their lips - but nothing comes out. The very few who do sing, only one or two of us sing loud enough to have our voice carry. So how can we speak of a fuller and more active participation if the minority of Catholics, that is those who actually come to Mass, just sit there to listen to the music?

Also, how can we speak of the Novus Ordo as being what the ‘people’ want if there are less then 30% of Catholics who even go to Mass anymore?

 

[Cat]

JMJ_coder, I agree with you that many people don’t appear to be participating, although I can’t see what’s going on in their hearts. I think more people are participating than we think.

Do you think more people would participate if TLM became the more prevalent form of the Mass in the U.S.?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

JMJ_coder, I agree with you that many people don’t appear to be participating, although I can’t see what’s going on in their hearts. I think more people are participating than we think.

I agree that we can’t see into their hearts, but as we’re now supposed to be fully and actively participating, it seems like they shouldn’t be mere spectators - which is how it seems sometimes.

Do you think more people would participate if TLM became the more prevalent form of the Mass in the U.S.?

I personally do think it would help a great deal. Of course, some other things would also have to improve to maximize this - catechesis, preaching, etc.

 

[quiet52]

When the celebrant recites the Eucharistic prayer during mass, we fully participate, even if we don’t recite the prayer verbally with the priest. We participate with our hearts and minds – emotionally and mentally – and show physical attention and reverence. We “remember” – and can only truly remember and give thanks if we participate as fully as we can, letting our priest, who serves in persona Christi, to lead us.

During the rest of the mass, a person may be singing without being heard by others – but God hears.

Yes, I do wish more people would raise their voices – but I’m glad they’re there to worship with me. Let’s work on keeping our faith “lively” and encouraging others to participate as much as they can.

 

[cecilia97]

I’m happy to say that the vast majority of my parish participates actively! My guesstimates: Probably 75% of the folks in the pews sing, and a lot of us sing loudly (we have a great choir and the leader encourages participation well). 99% of folks stay to the end of Mass instead of slipping out after Communion, and we say a Hail Mary for vocations afterward. Our pastor has asked us to bow at the incarnation during the Creed and strike our breast during the penitential rite…and maybe 50% of us do those. More than half of us bow before receiving Communion. Our pews are usually too full. You can see folks crossing themselves frequently during Mass, something I haven’t seen in other parishes.

I think the Holy Spirit and our pastor can be thanked for this. A visiting priest once said that he could see that our pastor was trying hard to implement what he called “the true spirit of Vatican 2”. I agree with that…our NO Masses and our whole parish feels extremely reverent and friendly at the same time.

I love my parish! If y’all are in the Houston area you should visit some of our churches. We have our share of groaners but most parishes I’ve been to seem to be doing it “right” if there is such an animal.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Hello,

Many tout the Novus Ordo as allowing people to participate more fully or more actively. Well, do they? I go to Church every Sunday and I am often the only one singing. Most don’t even pick up the missalette or hymnal. The few that do pick up the missalette or hymnal, most don’t sing and a few just move their lips - but nothing comes out. The very few who do sing, only one or two of us sing loud enough to have our voice carry. So how can we speak of a fuller and more active participation if the minority of Catholics, that is those who actually come to Mass, just sit there to listen to the music?

Also, how can we speak of the Novus Ordo as being what the ‘people’ want if there are less then 30% of Catholics who even go to Mass anymore?

Most of it comes from people are not that musical to start with. Other parts come from that Catholic Masses do not inspire people to sing as it has historically not been a tradition to sing out loud.

Another reason depends on how much the Cantor/Choir get the congregation into the mood and the song selection. People sing louder if the know the songs but if they are sight-reading then people are naturally more timid if they do not know the song (modern or not).

 

[Sr_Sally]

Signing hymns isn’t the only way to participate–and certainly not even the most important. If people are reciting the creed, saying the Sanctus and the Gloria, the Our Father, and all the other prayers, then they ARE participating. Even those who may say them quietly.

Lots and lots of people don’t like to sing or feel uncomfortable or embarrassed to sign out in public. Just because they aren’t signing, doesn’t mean they aren’t totally involved in worship.

 

[Zahmir]

Participation is great and all, as it should come from a heart that is truly joyous to be in the presence of the Lord, but participation, or lack thereof, is not a deal breaker.

I’m just thinking of TLM in which the people who attend Mass hardly “participate” at all. Instead, they remain in a prayerful state throughout the entirety of the Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

As some other people have stated, singing is not the only way a person “participates”. If a congregation aren’t great singers, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t particpating. It may just mean that they don’t like to sing. Some people prefer to “participate” by prayer or other means. I think people place too much emphasis on the music aspects of the liturgy for participation. Yes, it is great if you have a singing parish, but some parishes prefer having choirs do the music for them.

At my home parish, the people really SING. At my Cathedral, it depends on the congregation at each mass, since the crowd is usually made up of visitors. Sometimes they really sing, other times they are not as vocal. But people tend to always “participate” in the recited prayers.

 

[VAC]

Yes, absolutely, people are participating in my church.
Spoken responses… yes Recited prayers… yes!
Singing, yes, especially if it’s familiar songs and mass parts that are sung every week.
Not every parishoneer sings with the full force of a cantor or confident choir member but many people do sing!!
The familiar mass parts, they very sing loudly, familiar songs, a little less loudly.
The loudest singing I’ve ever heard from a crowd at mass was when we played ‘God Bless America’ at the end of a mass on July 4th a couple years back… I thought they’d blow off the roof…

 

[Ad_Deum]

I absolutely agree with you.
Vatican II changed the liturgy from TLM to NOM, so that the people would actively participate in the Mass, but after about 37years of its introduction people weren’t really active in participation at all, in fact, the church’s membership is not in a good position (decreasing).
Many priests were inventing ways to encourage people to come attend Mass, but it doesn’t really work at all, it only led to liturgical abuses.

Pax
Instaurare omnia in Christo

 

[Lorrie]

Other parts come from that Catholic Masses do not inspire people to sing as it has historically not been a tradition to sing out loud.

I disagree. I get inspired every time. I went to Mass on Saturday and they played “Gather Us In”, it was so wonderful. After Mass I had dinner at my mom’s and we were talking about the Church and I mentioned to her that they had played the above mentioned song. She smiled and said she loved it too and played it on her piano while we sang it together.

Now, to the OP, I’m not sure how many people in my parish actually sing (or participate fully during Mass) since our Cathedral is quite big. I hear a lot of voices though during the hymns (and basically booming during the Nicene Creed), so I’m left to assume that the participation rate is pretty high in my parish.

As for who is picking up hymnal books/missalettes I’m really not paying attention to them since my attention is usually on the alter or on my own book.

 

[water]

Some people don’t know how to read; if they remember the songs, they may sing along.

Some others know how to read but barely know how to sing, singing out loud can be a difficult thing to do for them.

Others may know how to sing, but they don’t know the songs well, singing with low voice seems to be a good thing to them.

Few may have difficult problem breathing with their nose, singing and breathing with their mouth can be a challenge.

Those who are mute, they sing songs in their hearts, and their rhythm might be the best to God.

Those who know how to sing and can sing loud, please keep on singing.

 

[jrnami]

Some people don’t know how to read; if they remember the songs, they may sing along.

Some others know how to read but barely know how to sing, singing out loud can be a difficult thing to do for them.

Others may know how to sing, but they don’t know the songs well, singing with low voice seems to be a good thing to them.

Few may have difficult problem breathing with their nose, singing and breathing with their mouth can be a challenge.

Those who are mute, they sing songs in their hearts, and their rhythm might be the best to God.

Those who know how to sing and can sing loud, please keep on singing.

Ha ha, I think illiteracy is not that common these days, inspite of our inferior school system. Probably mouth breathing is the explanation that makes the most sense.

 

[Cat]

I definitely agree about the cantor and I would add the musician(s).

Certain cantors can really lead the people well in singing. Same for certain pianists, organists, etc.

People tell me that they like to sing when I play, because I pound out the melody of the hymn. I grew up playing the piano in church (evangelical Protestant) and a music minister taught me to do this. Also, I read the same suggestion in a book written by a bishop shortly after Vatican II–he said it’s very important to help the people learn the melody, since so many people don’t read music.

One of my friends who is 63 tells me that she was raised traditional Catholic (Catholic schools all the way through college) and she was taught that a person should never sing with a full voice, but that the hymns and songs in Mass were meant to be prayerful meditations sung in a whisper. So perhaps the reason a lot of people don’t sing is that they were trained NOT to sing in their TLM.

As for the responses, they are prayers, and most of us, even the most lively, don’t emote loudly on our prayers! Maybe we should!

 

[Paganus]

We had 75% of the congregation singing until our traditional-minded organist was sent away and our choir director quit.

Then, for a few months, the church was mostly silent except for the voice of our new choir director and her electronic keyboard. After a few masses of new hip-shaking tunes from the 70s, the last few members of the choir stood up and walked out in the middle of a song and have not been seen in our parish again.

However, she has recently managed to furnish our choir loft with a half-dozen singers to join her. New people to the parish and not always the same faces. Now she does not sing entirely alone but the participation in the pews has reached 0%.

Do you think it would be disrespectful to God to sing “Tantum ergo” aloud while the choir bangs their tamborines to something else?

 

[Brendan]

Participating Actively has very little to do with singing hymns or saying the responses.

Active Participation, as envisioned by Vatican II, has to do with Actively listening to the Readings proclaimed and the homily and Actively uniting our hearts with the Sacrifice being offered by priest on the Altar.

A person could go to Mass and not say a word, but still participate as actively as a human can.

Another person could sing every hymn, make every gesture and say every response loud and clear, and still not particpate at all.

 

[mozier]

Thomas Day’s classic, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing,” deals with this issue very well.

How can one sing when he/she is being drowned out by a cantor who is roaring into a microphone? Or even more relevant, who can sing songs no one knows, although one commonly used sounds vaguely like the theme song to the Brady Bunch?

One can also check out a website that is a moratorium on the Music of David Haas and Marty Haugen. If 80% of your church’s music is from these guys (with the remaining 20% being from The St. Louis Jesuits, the Weston Priory, or Sebastian Temple), then you know you are in trouble.

This isn’t to say that some contemporary music cannot be used, but make it easy. Go with the stuff that is on those Praise and Worship CD’s that you see advertised on television (you know, the ones with “Be Exalted O God” on them). Or try some of John Michael Tallbot’s diverse and easy-to-learn material. Or better yet, just go Anglican and sing songs in the tradition of the Old Hundredth. You can never go wrong on the latter idea.

 

[VAC]

Participating Actively has very little to do with singing hymns or saying the responses.

Active Participation, as envisioned by Vatican II, has to do with Actively listening to the Readings proclaimed and the homily and Actively uniting our hearts with the Sacrifice being offered by priest on the Altar.

A person could go to Mass and not say a word, but still participate as actively as a human can.

Another person could sing every hymn, make every gesture and say every response loud and clear, and still not particpate at all.

Not according to any church documents I’ve read, including many informative peices posted by members of this forum. Could you provide your source for the above statement?
I disagree with you. We are expected to open our mouths at the appropriate places in the mass, (unless you are physically unable.) I don’t believe that anyone should face consequences for not participating (FOLKS, DO NOT turn this into another one of those nitpicking threads!! and don’t send out liturgical police to seek out those not singing)

That mentality of sitting rigid and silent in your pew contributes to the lack of participation.

Why would you stand silently and not recite the profession of faith if others around you are doing it unless you are phyically unable??
The responsiorial psalm is just that… a psalm in which the crowd is expected to respond.
The ‘dialogue’ between the priest and crowd during the mass wouldn’t be written as such if we weren’t expected to respond out loud.

 

[VAC]

Thomas Day’s classic, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing,” deals with this issue very well.

One can also check out a website that is a moratorium on the Music of David Haas and Marty Haugen. If 80% of your church’s music is from these guys (with the remaining 20% being from The St. Louis Jesuits, the Weston Priory, or Sebastian Temple), then you know you are in trouble.

This isn’t to say that some contemporary music cannot be used, but make it easy. Go with the stuff that is on those Praise and Worship CD’s that you see advertised on television (you know, the ones with “Be Exalted O God” on them). Or try some of John Michael Tallbot’s diverse and easy-to-learn material. Or better yet, just go Anglican and sing songs in the tradition of the Old Hundredth. You can never go wrong on the latter idea.

We sing quite a few of those hymns you just criticized, and PEOPLE ARE SINGING at our mass.