Are People Participating?

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We had 75% of the congregation singing until our traditional-minded organist was sent away and our choir director quit.

Then, for a few months, the church was mostly silent except for the voice of our new choir director and her electronic keyboard. After a few masses of new hip-shaking tunes from the 70s, the last few members of the choir stood up and walked out in the middle of a song and have not been seen in our parish again.

However, she has recently managed to furnish our choir loft with a half-dozen singers to join her. New people to the parish and not always the same faces. Now she does not sing entirely alone but the participation in the pews has reached 0%.

Do you think it would be disrespectful to God to sing “Tantum ergo” aloud while the choir bangs their tamborines to something else? :confused:
I think for your parish, the quote, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,” works perfectly here. It’s apparently obvious that your congregation was happy and was participating with the previous director and choir. If the congregation isn’t participating now when they used to have much better participation, the director isn’t doing her job. My parish had sent out surveys regarding the music of their parish a few years ago because at one point they were apparently doing all contemporary, bongo music and folk music. The church listenened and now have mostly traditional hymns with some contemporary, with only one folk mass a month and one teen mass a Sunday. It was a good compromise. Now I’d say almost everyone sings.
 
Not according to any church documents I’ve read, including many informative peices posted by members of this forum. Could you provide your source for the above statement?
Pope Benedict’s Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”
I disagree with you. We are expected to open our mouths at the appropriate places in the mass, (unless you are physically unable.)
Yes, we are expected to make certain responses, but one should not confuse that with Active Participation. The Church requires actions under the Rubrics, but it never says that performing the rubrical actions is how the faithful make their Participation.

If you disagree, I would like to see your citations.
That mentality of sitting rigid and silent in your pew contributes to the lack of participation.
Why would you stand silently and not recite the profession of faith if others around you are doing it unless you are phyically unable??
The responsiorial psalm is just that… a psalm in which the crowd is expected to respond.
The ‘dialogue’ between the priest and crowd during the mass wouldn’t be written as such if we weren’t expected to respond out loud.
Yes, those are a type of particpation, but they are not True and Active Particpation.

If that were true, a Mute person could not give equal participation to a person who could speak.

But the Vatican documents apply to each of us equally. We are all called to pariticpate equally.

Here is an address by Pope John Paul II to the US Bishops during an Ad Lima Visit.
But full participation does not mean that everyone does everything, since this would lead to a clericalizing of the laity and a laicizing of the priesthood; and this was not what the Council had in mind. The liturgy, like the Church, is intended to be hierarchical and polyphonic, respecting the different roles assigned by Christ and allowing all the different voices to blend in one great hymn of praise.
Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural.
Conscious participation calls for the entire community to be properly instructed in the mysteries of the liturgy, lest the experience of worship degenerate into a form of ritualism. But it does not mean a constant attempt within the liturgy itself to make the implicit explicit, since this often leads to a verbosity and informality which are alien to the Roman Rite and end by trivializing the act of worship. Nor does it mean the suppression of all subconscious experience, which is vital in a liturgy which thrives on symbols that speak to the subconscious just as they speak to the conscious.
A lot of what I am reading here is what John Paul warned about, that Paricipation is defined by what we do and say, and how the rubrics are perfomed. It’s not, it’s deeper than that. It’s about our interior participation.

In our Baptism, we became members of the Common Priesthood of Believers. As priests, we offer Sacrifice at Mass. The Minsterial Priesthood offers Christ Himself in the Eucharist. We cannot do that, but we can, and should, offer our hearts in conjunction with the Minsterial Sacrifice of the Altar.

It’s all fine and dandy to say “We lift our hearts up to the Lord”, but saying the words isn’t doing actually making the Sacrifice of our Hearts.

When the priest holds up the Host or the Chalice, that is when we, in silence, need to perform OUR action, to perform OUR Sacrifice, but most don’t. Most think that they have already ‘actively particpated’ when the said the words.

And that is how the mute person Active Particpates equally. He\She can’t say the words, but they may do the interior action. THAT is where we are called to participate. And all may do it equally, the healty, the mute, the deaf, the quadrapeligic. We can all participate equally, doing the exact same thing, because we all have an active interior life.

As I mentioned above, Pope Benedict devoted a full chapter to what is, and what isn’t Active Participation in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”, the whole book is a great read. 👍
 
As I mentioned above, Pope Benedict devoted a full chapter to what is, and what isn’t Active Participation in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”, the whole book is a great read.
Couldn’t agree more. This is the sort of book one can read several times. It’s that full of insight.

As for singing… I love singing hymns, but all too often, either because I am familiar with the text or because I scanned it at the outset, I have to close the book and pray that we will one day stop singing heresy at Mass.
 
Hello,

Many tout the Novus Ordo as allowing people to participate more fully or more actively. Well, do they? I go to Church every Sunday and I am often the only one singing. Most don’t even pick up the missalette or hymnal. The few that do pick up the missalette or hymnal, most don’t sing and a few just move their lips - but nothing comes out. The very few who do sing, only one or two of us sing loud enough to have our voice carry. So how can we speak of a fuller and more active participation if the minority of Catholics, that is those who actually come to Mass, just sit there to listen to the music?

Also, how can we speak of the Novus Ordo as being what the ‘people’ want if there are less then 30% of Catholics who even go to Mass anymore?
I would be careful in assuming that the non-use of a missalette meant someone wasn’t participating. I NEVER use them. Why? I’ve got my “part” memorized and can make my responses. Why would I continue to consult the “script?” And during the readings, I would rather listen to the Word proclaimed from the ambo than read it from a missalette. Seems more fitting, to me, at least. I’ve always sung, but that’s because I’ve sung in the choir up until this year and that’s my role (I’m taking a year off). As a member of the congregation, I flatly refuse to sing any more of the banal garbage that passes for Catholic hymnody these days. If the priests/liturgy directors were met with a stony silence every time they asked us to sing “City of God” or “Sing a New Song,” maybe they’d get the message and buy the Adoremus Hymnal.
 
I’m happy to say that the vast majority of my parish participates actively! My guesstimates: Probably 75% of the folks in the pews sing, and a lot of us sing loudly (we have a great choir and the leader encourages participation well). 99% of folks stay to the end of Mass instead of slipping out after Communion, and we say a Hail Mary for vocations afterward. Our pastor has asked us to bow at the incarnation during the Creed and strike our breast during the penitential rite…and maybe 50% of us do those. More than half of us bow before receiving Communion. Our pews are usually too full. 🙂 You can see folks crossing themselves frequently during Mass, something I haven’t seen in other parishes.

I think the Holy Spirit and our pastor can be thanked for this. A visiting priest once said that he could see that our pastor was trying hard to implement what he called “the true spirit of Vatican 2”. I agree with that…our NO Masses and our whole parish feels extremely reverent and friendly at the same time.

I love my parish! If y’all are in the Houston area you should visit some of our churches. We have our share of groaners but most parishes I’ve been to seem to be doing it “right” if there is such an animal.
This sounds like a “liturgical innovation” to me, since that is not in the rite itself.
 
Ha ha, I think illiteracy is not that common these days, inspite of our inferior school system. Probably mouth breathing is the explanation that makes the most sense.😉
Well, in the area where water and I live, there are a LOT of people who don’t read English.
 
Well, in the area where water and I live, there are a LOT of people who don’t read English.
You are right, cecilia. I could relate to these people when I first came to the US and had no choice but went to English mass with little of English.
 
I would be careful in assuming that the non-use of a missalette meant someone wasn’t participating. I NEVER use them. Why? I’ve got my “part” memorized and can make my responses. Why would I continue to consult the “script?” And during the readings, I would rather listen to the Word proclaimed from the ambo than read it from a missalette.
I couldn’t agree more. I find the missalette a distraction during Mass, so I never use it. That doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not I’m participating fully in the Mass and am disturbed to think that others may think this.
 
Ah! Mass participation after Vatican II.
Sociological studies done before and after Vatican II showed an increase in Mass attendance after the Council. Another study after Humanae Vitae indicated a decline in attendance. Other studies followed and confirmed that attendance had dropped after Humanae Vitae.
The problem of Catholics and singing is one that existed long before Vatican II and although we have singing in the vernacular we have still not had any luck in getting people to sing. It isn’t the fault of the liturgy or the liturgists. Catholics just don’t seem to sing in the US. This is not the case in other countries, at least not as marked a problem.
This is another area in which the Church has failed to keep the laity active in worship, but it isn’t new.

Matthew
 
I guess I’m lucky. We have great participation and most sing along as best I can tell. I’ll admit though that there are some songs I don’t sing along to, just out of personal taste. :o
 
Hello,

Many tout the Novus Ordo as allowing people to participate more fully or more actively. Well, do they? I go to Church every Sunday and I am often the only one singing. Most don’t even pick up the missalette or hymnal. The few that do pick up the missalette or hymnal, most don’t sing and a few just move their lips - but nothing comes out. The very few who do sing, only one or two of us sing loud enough to have our voice carry. So how can we speak of a fuller and more active participation if the minority of Catholics, that is those who actually come to Mass, just sit there to listen to the music?

Also, how can we speak of the Novus Ordo as being what the ‘people’ want if there are less then 30% of Catholics who even go to Mass anymore?
Here in Africa some of the white folks seem a bit shy and mumble/bumble their way through the hymns…i once attended a black african mass and everybody sang ; in fact they sometimes sang without any prompting whatsoever…somebody would start and the next thing the whole church would be in song.
A real wake up call for me !!! I must say that things do improve when our resident priest encourages everyone to participate…in fact our priest once stopped midway through a hymn and told the choir to start all over from the beginning ! If we see singing as a form of prayer we will all be more willing to ’ raise the roof ’ !🙂
 
You are right, cecilia. I could relate to these people when I first came to the US and had no choice but went to English mass with little of English.
That is precisely why Vatican II said that the faithful should know enough their parts of the Mass IN LATIN. So that people like you could find a Mass where you can follow along and verbally particpate.

I do the same when I am in non-English speaking countries. I find a Latin Mass ( NO) and that allows me to sing and verbally particpate, along with my interior participation.
 
As a member of the congregation, I flatly refuse to sing any more of the banal garbage that passes for Catholic hymnody these days. If the priests/liturgy directors were met with a stony silence every time they asked us to sing “City of God” or “Sing a New Song,” maybe they’d get the message and buy the Adoremus Hymnal.
:clapping:

Wonderfully said!

James
 
I couldn’t agree more. I find the missalette a distraction during Mass, so I never use it. That doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not I’m participating fully in the Mass and am disturbed to think that others may think this.
I also find the missalettes to be a distraction. I usually can’t bring myself to use them. But, maybe with me it is for different reasons than others. I don’t like the “disposable” feel of a missalette. It just feels wrong to me for some reason.

I feel perfectly at home following along with an actual missal however. I think that something more permanent, more durable, is better suited for the Mass. I think this might be why I am not much of a fan of Magnificat. Some people love it and it really helps them in their prayer. I am not a fan of it at all.

This may not make much sense to anyone. But I just don’t feel like I’m actively participating with a missalette in my hands. But with the same texts in a missal in my hands I do.

James
 
I also find the missalettes to be a distraction. I usually can’t bring myself to use them. But, maybe with me it is for different reasons than others. I don’t like the “disposable” feel of a missalette. It just feels wrong to me for some reason.
Hi James,

This was how I felt at first about using it too; however, over the time, I have found myself to be able to focus more on the Readings and Gospel word by word when I can see it; each sentence gets into my mind better.
 
That is precisely why Vatican II said that the faithful should know enough their parts of the Mass IN LATIN. So that people like you could find a Mass where you can follow along and verbally particpate.

I do the same when I am in non-English speaking countries. I find a Latin Mass ( NO) and that allows me to sing and verbally particpate, along with my interior participation.
I understand the logic in that, but when I’ve traveled I’ve found it easier to actually find a NO Mass in the local language. So I’ve muddled through by badly pronouncing the Spanish or French from the missallette, but I have more success just saying my responses softly in English. You can mostly tell where you are in the order of Mass in any language.
 
In my parish, there is a problem with most of us not singing… Our Pastor purchased a HUGE screen with the intent that it would increase the number of those that sing and allow for the end to missalets (and their expense). However, this didn’t happen…I just think it has something to do with cathechesis.

I suspect that maybe those who were enrolled in catholic schools as children might be the ones that find it natural to sing along. Whereas those who were only given one hour per week of CCD (perhaps weak in structure) are the ones that don’t. I believe there might be a correlation here somewhere. It probably doesn’t account for all the lack in singing but maybe it’s just self-esteem issues…🤷 I also think that some of us just don’t understand that the responses sung are truly prayers themselves. (Double the strength in prayer 🙂 ).

By the way, King David sung in the streets…a one man band in love with Our Lord! What an awesome sight that must have been to see!
 
STOP STOP STOP dissing Haugen, Haas, and the St. Louis Jesuits!!! Please stop.

It is just mean-spirited. Catholics all over the U.S. sing these songs, and as far as I know, none of the songs have been “banned” by any official Catholic authoritative organization.

Our Bishop, the beloved and conservative Bishop Thomas Doran, uses Gather Us In as the theme song on his weekly radio show in our diocese.

People have talked about the need to be polite during the Mass and not chat or sit with legs a-spraddle, etc. Well, practice what you preach.

I think people should be polite and sing all the hymns, or at least follow along in the hymnal if they can’t sing for some reason. Standing (or sitting) staring straight ahead with a stony glare doesn’t communicate to any of us that you find the song theologically incorrect; all it does is make you look rude. Bring a sign or an armband along, and when a hymn is done that you personally find theologically offensive, then hold up your sign or put on your armband and lower your head so that all the other parishioners know that the song that they are singing in front of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and their priests is a HERESY!!! (At least, according to YOU, who apparently have more knowledge and authority than the parish priest. Hey, why aren’t YOU up there offering Mass?)

I LOVE many of the songs by these composers, and so do many, MANY of the Catholics in the parishes where I play. Because of the architecture of some of the “modern” buildings, it’s hard to tell if a lot of people are singing sometimes, but but in the Italian parish which meets in a hundred-year old sanctuary, they raise the roof! And they have told me many times that they LOVE the contemporary songs!

So the entire Catholic world does NOT agree that the St. Louis Jesuits (prounounced with a disparaging “sssspit”!) are heretical, shallow, difficult to sing, etc. This is YOUR opinion. You are entitled to it, but please don’t extrapololate it to the entire Catholic Church.

The music teacher at our Catholic school (who is in her 60s, old enough to remember pre-Vat II) says that the reason Catholics don’t sing in Church is because congregational hymn-singing in the Catholic Church is only about 40 years old, and many Catholics grew up not singing hymns. She is working on training all the kids in the school to sing (liturgical singing and hymn singing classes are mandatory), and she claims that we will see more singing in church as the young people grow up.

It is my personal opinion that the main reasons Catholics don’t sing are:
  1. many sing by ear rather than reading music, and so they can’t sing songs unless they have heard them enough to learn them by ear.
  2. most Catholic hymnals or missalettes only print the melody line, and for those of us who prefer to sing one of the other parts, we simply can’t produce the “volume” or “fullness” on a soprano line. I wish that Catholic hymnals included four-part music; I think it would make a difference, especially if the people were encouraged to sing the parts.
  3. people don’t know how to sing in a “head voice,” which enables even an alto or bass to sing the melody line, and this means that many people are singing low down in the chest, and these people can’t be heard and so it seems that they aren’t participating in the singing. We should make sure that all our children learn to sing properly, and churches should consider offering a short class so that everyone can learn some good singing techniques that will make singing more comfortable.
  4. many of the parishioners are elderly and their voices have become reedy or softer over the years. God hears them singing!
 
Our Bishop, the beloved and conservative Bishop Thomas Doran, uses Gather Us In as the theme song on his weekly radio show in our diocese.
I’ve listened to that too. And I think you mean that he uses the MUSIC from “Gather Us In” in his radio program. I heartly concur that we should follow the good Bishop’s example and keep the tune but ditch the lyrics :cool:
The music teacher at our Catholic school (who is in her 60s, old enough to remember pre-Vat II) says that the reason Catholics don’t sing in Church is because congregational hymn-singing is only about 40 years old, and many Catholics grew up not singing hymns. She is working on training all the kids in the school to sing (liturgical singing and hymn singing classes are mandatory), and she claims that we will see more singing in church as the young people grow up.
You teacher is mistaken. Congregational singing has been present for millenia.

Let me guess, your teacher went to a primarily Irish parish. Being Irish myself, I know, congregational singing has a poor history with us. Very little singing was done in Irish liturgies as the Mass in Ireland was outlawed for centuries. You could not draw attention to the Mass, and the congregation belting out “Salve Regina” would be one great way of calling in a troop of British soliders to arrest Father.

Other cultures, particularly the French, have a long history of congregational singing, well longer than the 40 years your teacher mentioned.
 
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