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Sarabande
Guest
Hi Cat,
Please know that I am writing this with the utmost gentleness and respect. I understand how you would feel hurt by knowing that there are people out there who really can’t stand and are sometimes insulted by some of the compositions of these hymn writers, especially since you do have love for and enjoy playing that kind of music. It’s a natural reaction on either side, but some people feel just as sickened by that music as you have a sincere and great love for that music. I’m just saying that they have an equal right to express their absolute disdain of that music on these forums as you have the right to express your absolute joy in them. We can’t beg people to stop expressing their opinions and how they view things. It doesn’t make for good discussion and makes everything one-side and boring.
In terms of the opinion of wanting everyone to sing every hymn during mass. I respect and understand your opinion of it, but to force or to expect people to sing a hymn that is either physically sickening to them or intellectually, emotionally or theologically insulting (in their opinion) would make them be hypocritical to their own conscience. I wouldn’t want to be the cause of that. I’m usually cantoring, so I’m singing all the time and the music is always usually fine to me. But if I’m in another parish in the congregation, there will be hymns which I feel I shouldn’t sing according to my conscience. I’m not rude and I never try to make a point of it, nor am I focusing on the fact that the piece of music is insulting. I just either read along or I close my eyes and pray. Honestly, I’ve never thought of a person not singing along when I was singing as rude. No one that I know of have ever been rude about it. So, they don’t want to sing? It’s no big deal. I am sure they are praying in another way.
You brought out some good points as to why some parishes don’t sing. I don’t know if four-part harmonies written in the hymnals would help unless we start teaching our next generations how to read music. My husband and I both know how to read music and wouldn’t have any trouble, but most don’t and look at notes as a foreign language. So, the first thing is to provide proper music theory and reading training to the children if we want them to be singing 4-part harmonies.
If you haven’t already, and I think it has been suggested on this thread, I would suggest reading “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”. As a cradle Catholic and a musician, and having many musician colleagues who have worked in the Church for decades, it really does ring true to my ears. You don’t have to agree with all of it, but there is much to take in and say, “Wow! That is soooo true!!!”
Having worked in the church for a number of years now, I also think some of the reasons why some parishes don’t sing is if the musicians are less than stellar in their playing. I’m not saying that they have to be a J.S. Bach or a Felix Hell (although that would be ideal ha!), but they do have to be able to keep a steady beat and rhythm and play to support the congregation. Some play like they are so wimpy or with no sense of rhythm at all. A cantor can help, but the organist/pianist or other instrumentalist is the real support for the congregation. They have to at least have that down, then remember not to drown the congregation with too much sound or abandon the congregation with too little. Also, know what tempi are best especially according to church and how the sound reverberates. Just last week, we had a substitute organist who seemed like everything was a race and didn’t feel like a prayer at all. And he played so loudly no one could hear themselves sing. Plus, in a huge Cathedral, when things are played too fast, the sound gets all mushy and you can’t tell where you are. My parents who were in the congregation and aren’t musicians (although my dad used to play trumpet in high school) complained to me afterwards about how rushed it all was and how they couldn’t really follow along because he played too fast and too loudly. He was a good musician, but just didn’t keep those things in mind or wasn’t used to the space. The same is the opposite if someone plays too slowly. Not everyone has the breath control of trained singer, so they’d rather just not sing. I don’t blame them. If I couldn’t sustain my breath and had to breathe continually after two or three notes, I wouldn’t want to sing either.
Anyway, those are my thoughts, and please, Cat, realize that I’m not trying to pick on you at all. I know you are very sincere and mean very well in your beliefs and I respect that entirely. God bless.
Please know that I am writing this with the utmost gentleness and respect. I understand how you would feel hurt by knowing that there are people out there who really can’t stand and are sometimes insulted by some of the compositions of these hymn writers, especially since you do have love for and enjoy playing that kind of music. It’s a natural reaction on either side, but some people feel just as sickened by that music as you have a sincere and great love for that music. I’m just saying that they have an equal right to express their absolute disdain of that music on these forums as you have the right to express your absolute joy in them. We can’t beg people to stop expressing their opinions and how they view things. It doesn’t make for good discussion and makes everything one-side and boring.
In terms of the opinion of wanting everyone to sing every hymn during mass. I respect and understand your opinion of it, but to force or to expect people to sing a hymn that is either physically sickening to them or intellectually, emotionally or theologically insulting (in their opinion) would make them be hypocritical to their own conscience. I wouldn’t want to be the cause of that. I’m usually cantoring, so I’m singing all the time and the music is always usually fine to me. But if I’m in another parish in the congregation, there will be hymns which I feel I shouldn’t sing according to my conscience. I’m not rude and I never try to make a point of it, nor am I focusing on the fact that the piece of music is insulting. I just either read along or I close my eyes and pray. Honestly, I’ve never thought of a person not singing along when I was singing as rude. No one that I know of have ever been rude about it. So, they don’t want to sing? It’s no big deal. I am sure they are praying in another way.
You brought out some good points as to why some parishes don’t sing. I don’t know if four-part harmonies written in the hymnals would help unless we start teaching our next generations how to read music. My husband and I both know how to read music and wouldn’t have any trouble, but most don’t and look at notes as a foreign language. So, the first thing is to provide proper music theory and reading training to the children if we want them to be singing 4-part harmonies.
If you haven’t already, and I think it has been suggested on this thread, I would suggest reading “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”. As a cradle Catholic and a musician, and having many musician colleagues who have worked in the Church for decades, it really does ring true to my ears. You don’t have to agree with all of it, but there is much to take in and say, “Wow! That is soooo true!!!”
Having worked in the church for a number of years now, I also think some of the reasons why some parishes don’t sing is if the musicians are less than stellar in their playing. I’m not saying that they have to be a J.S. Bach or a Felix Hell (although that would be ideal
ha!), but they do have to be able to keep a steady beat and rhythm and play to support the congregation. Some play like they are so wimpy or with no sense of rhythm at all. A cantor can help, but the organist/pianist or other instrumentalist is the real support for the congregation. They have to at least have that down, then remember not to drown the congregation with too much sound or abandon the congregation with too little. Also, know what tempi are best especially according to church and how the sound reverberates. Just last week, we had a substitute organist who seemed like everything was a race and didn’t feel like a prayer at all. And he played so loudly no one could hear themselves sing. Plus, in a huge Cathedral, when things are played too fast, the sound gets all mushy and you can’t tell where you are. My parents who were in the congregation and aren’t musicians (although my dad used to play trumpet in high school) complained to me afterwards about how rushed it all was and how they couldn’t really follow along because he played too fast and too loudly. He was a good musician, but just didn’t keep those things in mind or wasn’t used to the space. The same is the opposite if someone plays too slowly. Not everyone has the breath control of trained singer, so they’d rather just not sing. I don’t blame them. If I couldn’t sustain my breath and had to breathe continually after two or three notes, I wouldn’t want to sing either.Anyway, those are my thoughts, and please, Cat, realize that I’m not trying to pick on you at all. I know you are very sincere and mean very well in your beliefs and I respect that entirely. God bless.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Not only is the exterior component of saying/singing a secondary, rather peripheral component of active participation, but the typical “four hymn sandwich” is not even part of the Mass. So participating actively in the Mass has absolutely nothing to do with singing those songs. In fact, the processional and recessional take place before and after, but not even during, the liturgy (which begins with “In the name of the Father…” and ends with “Thanks be to God.”),
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree with both you and Brendan on this as well. Singing hymns is a nice way to “participate”, but it’s definitely not the only or major way. Cheers!
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VAC
Guest
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and has a right to express it, but it’s the Church’s authority which should declare hymns heretical or theologically insulting, not individual opinions.Hi Cat,
Please know that I am writing this with the utmost gentleness and respect. I understand how you would feel hurt by knowing that there are people out there who really can’t stand and are sometimes insulted by some of the compositions of these hymn writers, especially since you do have love for and enjoy playing that kind of music. It’s a natural reaction on either side, but some people feel just as sickened by that music as you have a sincere and great love for that music. I’m just saying that they have an equal right to express their absolute disdain of that music on these forums as you have the right to express your absolute joy in them. We can’t beg people to stop expressing their opinions and how they view things. It doesn’t make for good discussion and makes everything one-side and boring.
In terms of the opinion of wanting everyone to sing every hymn during mass. I respect and understand your opinion of it, but to force or to expect people to sing a hymn that is either physically sickening to them or intellectually, emotionally or theologically insulting (in their opinion) would make them be hypocritical to their own conscience. .
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Sarabande
Guest
I give you that. When I don’t sing hymns according to my conscience, it’s not because I disagree with it theologically.
I have other reasons for doing so. I’m not analyzing a hymn that deeply when I’m singing, as I am one those who can’t chew gum and walk at the same time. Ha!
Anyway, that’s why I’m happy that, at least in the US – I don’t know about other countries - they are apparently reviewing all hymns (old and new) to determine if they are sound according to Catholic teaching. We have probably been in need of this for a long time.
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b_justb
Guest
When I sing it’s a sin. Now you want me to sin loudly? AND in Church?? Well OK, but I think people will start chucking those bulky hard green Gather Hymnals at my noodle. http://www.coolsmilies.net/bonk/bop1.gif
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Sarabande
Guest
Hahahahahaha !!!
Thanks for adding levity to this. 
Oh… your poor noodle. Don’t worry, I won’t add to the book throwing.
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VAC
Guest
Hey, if that priest a few posts back can sing a little off into a lapel mike, you can sing too!!!
CatholicCajun
New member
A lot of the people at the Mass we go to don’t sing and a good many don’t seem very interested in what’s going on, on the other hand I have found out and I am sure most of you have, the more to the front you sit the more active the people are. God Bless.
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree that it is nicer and easier when I do find a NO Latin mass in other countries as well. I have elementary comprehension of French, Italian and German as I need to understand it and pronounce it correctly for opera and lieder, but I don’t know it enough to really “participate” when I studied abroad in those countries. Most of my Latin for the NO mass is memorized and I liked it when I could attend mass and vocally say the responses. My Italian is not so bad, though, because it’s very close to Latin (duh) and I was able to pick up on the responses well enough since I was there for a month, and especially since the little town I was living in didn’t seem to have any Latin NO masses. Although, I’m right there with the rest when singing their hymns in the vernacular.
It always seems easier to sing in another language than to recite in another language.
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VAC
Guest
Although I believe that having masses in the vernacular is a good thing, and people participate more in what they understand,
I have to admit that last year during Lent, I went to a Bilingual English/Spanish funeral mass for a friends mother. I appreciated that the mass parts were in Latin… I had just learned them recently and was able to sing along. Otherwise, although I knew the order of the mass, I didn’t feel like I was participating when the some readings, part of the homily and responses were in Spanish.
Yes, I agree it’s much easier for to sing in an unfamiliar language than to recite it.
I have to admit that last year during Lent, I went to a Bilingual English/Spanish funeral mass for a friends mother. I appreciated that the mass parts were in Latin… I had just learned them recently and was able to sing along. Otherwise, although I knew the order of the mass, I didn’t feel like I was participating when the some readings, part of the homily and responses were in Spanish.
Yes, I agree it’s much easier for to sing in an unfamiliar language than to recite it.
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DB_AND_ALI
Guest
In my parish, there is a problem with most of us not singing… Our Pastor purchased a HUGE screen with the intent that it would increase the number of those that sing and allow for the end to missalets (and their expense). However, this didn’t happen…I just think it has something to do with cathechesis.
I suspect that maybe those who were enrolled in catholic schools as children might be the ones that find it natural to sing along. Whereas those who were only given one hour per week of CCD (perhaps weak in structure) are the ones that don’t. I believe there might be a correlation here somewhere. It probably doesn’t account for all the lack in singing but maybe it’s just self-esteem issues…I also think that some of us just don’t understand that the responses sung are truly prayers themselves. (Double the strength in prayer
By the way, King David sung in the streets…a one man band in love with Our Lord! What an awesome sight that must have been to see!
Wow what is going on in the good ol US OF A ??? Our local hymnal is jam-packed with hymns from all the mainstream denominations…being a music lover myself i sometimes page through to see if i recognise any of the songs and with over 1000 songs we are truly spoilt for choice ! It’s really awesome to have a fired-up choir and an encouraging priest to spur everyone on. One of our most gifted singers in our choir is a methodist ’ on loan ’ so to say , as she is dating a Catholic from our parish…and she has an amazing voice ! Every parish should have people willing to participate in the mass…not pretend to by keeping quiet.
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Brendan
Guest
I can understand French well enought ( it’s a survial trait, my wife is Quebecois, so all my in-laws speak French)_
But my Dutch in Amsterdam, Korean in Seoul and German in Munich leave MUCH to be desired. It was far easier to just go to the Latin Mass. Seoul was easy, it was in the Cathedral (
), the others I found via an email to the Chancellry of each diocese.
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DJgang
Guest
Well, I’ll be…why didn’t I think about that. Seriously.A lot of the people at the Mass we go to don’t sing and a good many don’t seem very interested in what’s going on, on the other hand I have found out and I am sure most of you have, the more to the front you sit the more active the people are. God Bless.
I usually sit to the back because…I’m not Catholic yet…
I have found so many folks that appear (and I say appear, because I do not know their hearts) so uninterested in the service, that I find myself just wanting to leave. I find myself thinking…“and you ARE Catholic and do take the Eucharist and here I am suffering while I wait it all out” Ugh!
To the front I’m going…
I just got into the habit of sitting in the bad because of all the kids and lately, DH has allowed me to go to Mass alone on Saturday evenings…BTW, PM me with your Catholic store’s website…k? (I noticed that in your profile)
CatholicCajun
New member
Let us know how sitting in the front goes and don’t worry about not being “Catholic” yet, you may be more Catholic than half the people int he church. God Bless.Well, I’ll be…why didn’t I think about that. Seriously.
I usually sit to the back because…I’m not Catholic yet…
I have found so many folks that appear (and I say appear, because I do not know their hearts) so uninterested in the service, that I find myself just wanting to leave. I find myself thinking…“and you ARE Catholic and do take the Eucharist and here I am suffering while I wait it all out” Ugh!
To the front I’m going…
BTW, PM me with your Catholic store’s website…k? (I noticed that in your profile)
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anniemart
Guest
I learned this year how to read the notes (my daughter taught me what those little black bubbles mean
) So now, at least I know when to lower or raise my tone. I still can’t sing but boy, do I try to anyway. We do have a choir that has one really gifted person in it however. Other than that, a few families that sit nearby on the other side of the church by us, most people just can’t be heard to be singing. 
Sometimes, when I hear a particular hymn or two, I have to stop because I am so moved to tears that I feel the lump in my throat. *How beautiful it must sound in your parish!! *God Bless you and may **LOVE for the Lord **continue to be heard in all your singing voices!
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
As do the Germans. Big singers.I’ve listened to that too. And I think you mean that he uses the MUSIC from “Gather Us In” in his radio program. I heartly concur that we should follow the good Bishop’s example and keep the tune but ditch the lyrics
You teacher is mistaken. Congregational singing has been present for millenia.
Let me guess, your teacher went to a primarily Irish parish. Being Irish myself, I know, congregational singing has a poor history with us. Very little singing was done in Irish liturgies as the Mass in Ireland was outlawed for centuries. You could not draw attention to the Mass, and the congregation belting out “Salve Regina” would be one great way of calling in a troop of British soliders to arrest Father.
Other cultures, particularly the French, have a long history of congregational singing, well longer than the 40 years your teacher mentioned.
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mamar
Guest
i have been away from these boards for a while but this post really hits home for me and cracks me up…my husband is a recent convert but has been attending mass w/ us for years and years…his biggest complaint about the church coming from a protestant backround is that, why dont we sing…he has a very musical backround and is very good at it…he points out EVERY sunday that at least 50% of the mass is singing and he absolutely can not understand why he is the only one singing god’s praises in our general proximity…we belong to a huge parish as well…and about 30% sing loud enough you can hear them…we were on vacation this weekend in lake george, ny and the same thing…the cantor was great…he really tried to get everyone to participate but it was pretty much just us and another family singing, and the church was packed…i keep telling him all these reasons listed on these boards…he just can not get past it due to his upbringing…
on a funny side note…sometimes he he turns around to the people around us and starts singing right in their face (in a nice way of course) b/c he thinks he is going to get them to participate…i just close my eyes and sing…he said he should be a cantor…i dont want him to be though b/c i would be afraid he would stop in the middle of the psalms and start pointing to people to sing!!!
on a funny side note…sometimes he he turns around to the people around us and starts singing right in their face (in a nice way of course) b/c he thinks he is going to get them to participate…i just close my eyes and sing…he said he should be a cantor…i dont want him to be though b/c i would be afraid he would stop in the middle of the psalms and start pointing to people to sing!!!
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