Are people treated differently by God in the OT than they are in the NT?

[fred_conty]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

 

[fhansen]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

Well, they became unjustified by acting…unjustly. Their act of disobedience was simultaneously an act of unbelief; by refusing to heed His command they were treating God as if He was *not *their God, as if He was simply not God at all IOW. Spiritual separation from Him, aka the “death of the soul” took place immediately; their world had changed.

We become justified by reversing that choice, that act. We become justified when we come to believe again. This is the right and proper order of things. This is what Jesus came to accomplish: reconciliation with and then communion with God. The greater we know and love and serve God the greater our justice. This begins with faith, on man’s part, in response to grace or God’s initiative.

Presumably Adam & Eve eventually came back around to this point as well, after spending time, like Prodigals, in the pigsty of this world (relatively speaking) and coming to see with the help of grace the foolishness of their choice, their choice to leave home. All such turning back to God would be credited to the merits that Christ won for us on the cross, regardless of when that change of heart may’ve taken place in time.

God exists; man needs God; God is trustworthy and true and has nothing but good intentions for His creation-unfathomably good-always has. He’s deserving of our undivided love and worship. This is what the life, teachings, deeds, death, and resurrection of Jesus is meant to prove. We just need to come to learn that for ourselves in order to overcome the “distorted image of God” that the catechism teaches man conceived at the Fall. Then we can turn back in faith and so re-enter the state of justice we were created in. But this doesn’t happen overnight; it’s still a process, a struggle throughout our lives as that faith is tested and refined.

 

[meltzerboy]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

Being expelled from the Garden of Eden does not mean that the relationship Adam and Eve had with G-d is now “unblessed (or) unjustified,” at least not according to Jewish thought. On the contrary, this departure meant that Adam and Eve, for the first time in their lives, must find their own way to survive and thrive in a brave new world, and relate in a meaningful way to G-d and to all of His creation. In other words, they must now grow up and fen for themselves albeit with G-d’s constant help, and they must learn to choose the morally correct path in all their decisions and actions through their own free will and repent of their wrongdoings when they fall short of the mark.

 

[simpleas]

Being expelled from the Garden of Eden does not mean that the relationship Adam and Eve had with G-d is now “unblessed (or) unjustified,” at least not according to Jewish thought. On the contrary, this departure meant that Adam and Eve, for the first time in their lives, must find their own way to survive and thrive in a brave new world, and relate in a meaningful way to G-d and to all of His creation. In other words, they must now grow up and fen for themselves albeit with G-d’s constant help, and they must learn to choose the morally correct path in all their decisions and actions through their own free will and repent of their wrongdoings when they fall short of the mark.

That sounds pretty easy and straight forward…

 

[fhansen]

Condensed version of post #2:

Man’s purpose here on earth, from Adam down through us, in this quasi-exile from God where he’s “lost”, cut off from his origins, from direct communion with the creator and lover of his soul, and where human freedom therefore runs the show for all practical purposes with all that implies, is to learn, with the help of revelation and grace, that humanity *cannot *be just without God. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). So he may then turn back and re-commune with Him. Then order, harmony, and peace-then justice- may reign in man again.

 

[fred_conty]

fhansen, I meant that was God’s attitude different toward man after the fall, and then different again after he was re-justified by Christ in the NT. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.

by meltzerboy …
Being expelled from the Garden of Eden… meant that Adam and Eve, for the first time in their lives, must find their own way to survive and thrive in a brave new world…

So wouldn’t this mean that God’s attitude was harsher toward them? Whereas before the expellsion it was much nicer and he talked to them?

 

[fhansen]

fhansen, I meant that was God’s attitude different toward man after the fall, and then different again after he was re-justified by Christ in the NT. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.

Ok, I’m still not sure I understand then. Either way it seems that the enmity came from *man if anything, not from God. And I tend to think that the differences in attitude between old and new had to do with God dealing differently with different levels of spiritual maturity. Jesus came when the time was ripe *in human history according to Scripture. And once a person comes to believe and is baptized/justified, he’s naturally considered to be a “friend” of God’s.

 

[meltzerboy]

fhansen, I meant that was God’s attitude different toward man after the fall, and then different again after he was re-justified by Christ in the NT. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.

So wouldn’t this mean that God’s attitude was harsher toward them? Whereas before the expellsion it was much nicer and he talked to them?

The way I was taught in Hebrew school many decades ago, was that even though Adam and Eve were punished, G-d still loved them completely. The old French proverb makes sense here, I think: “Qui aime bien, chatie bien.” (“Who loves well, punishes well.”) In English, the harsher-sounding equivalent is “Spare the rod, spoil the child.” In other words, discipline in the form of punishment can be a loving act, even more so than non-punishment.

 

[jcrichton]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

Hi, Fred!

You are engaging two distinct economies.

In the Old Testament God dealt directly with the people through the first Covenant–the Ten Commandments (the Law and the Prophets). God’s relationship was that of the Father guiding Israel (the chosen people) to the Promise (not just the promised land).

In the New Testament we find the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets in Jesus… it is here (at the Incarnation of the Word) that God’s Mercy is fully unfolded as both the old Covenant people and the new Covenant people will find Life through Jesus’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Since Christ is the Lamb of God it stands that God’s Mercy reaches back to Creation and forward to the Parousia; all will meet Judgment Day in God’s Mercy as all will be Judged by their Faith or lack of it in Christ–it is the reason why Christ descended into hades/hell so that He could Preach to those who had not known God’s Mercy in the Incarnate Word, and it is the reason why Christ proclaims that He will be Seen by all, even those who pierced Him! God’s Mercy knows no bounds!

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[goout]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

One God, the same God, always.
One love, always.
Always seeking his lost children.
Promising to rescue them.
Christ is the fulfillment of that promise.

The chosen people simply stray constantly, and the consequences are what they are.
God is the same always.

 

[PJM]

It says in Genesis that Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise in the OT. What this means is that they became unjustified before God. While in the NT, they became justified.

So wouldn’t this mean that there would be a blessed/justified relationship with God in the NT, while in the OT it was an unblessed/unjustified relationship? And the different relationships might translate sometimes into the kind of treatment as well…harsher or softer?

Or what you think it might mean if anything.

NO

What you suggest is impossible for a PERFECT GOD

The differences had to do with formation issues; which varied greatly in the OT and NT times; most notably GRACE, the RCC and the Sacraments.

GBY

 

[fred_conty]

NO

What you suggest is impossible for a PERFECT GOD

The differences had to do with formation issues; which varied greatly in the OT and NT times; most notably GRACE, the RCC and the Sacraments.

GBY

PJM, you used the magic word “impossible”.

Is it possible for a perfect God to say “no”? Or is it possible for a perfect God to show more favoritism to some than to others and still be perfect? If so, then it would be possible that God may have shown more love and favors to those in the NT than those in the OT, not so?

St Teresa, the little flower had the idea that some flowers are more glorious than others, and some are quite large while others quite small and some more beautiful. Yet all have been blessed with God’s goodness. She understood that God treats each flower differently and so she says that some souls are more favored than others too.

In the OT it seems to me some real drastic measures were taken any number of times in different ways, not only with the Chosen People, but also with other nations. But this doesn’t appear in the NT.

This doesn’t indicate that there is any difference in a perfect and all loving God in the OT and the NT. But it does indicate that there is a difference of favor.

 

[fred_conty]

The way I was taught in Hebrew school many decades ago, was that even though Adam and Eve were punished, G-d still loved them completely. The old French proverb makes sense here, I think: “Qui aime bien, chatie bien.” (“Who loves well, punishes well.”) In English, the harsher-sounding equivalent is “Spare the rod, spoil the child.” In other words, discipline in the form of punishment can be a loving act, even more so than non-punishment.

I would agree with you on the OT.

But then in the OT God did resemble a war lord in some instances, while in the NT Jesus didn’t do this except in individual cases. So I would conclude that the “behavior” of God was more strict in the OT than in the NT.

This of course doesn’t meant God is a jeckle and hide, but rather he exorcises his mercy and justice as it pleases him.

 

[fred_conty]

One God, the same God, always.
One love, always.
Always seeking his lost children.
Promising to rescue them.
Christ is the fulfillment of that promise.

The chosen people simply stray constantly, and the consequences are what they are.
God is the same always.

Again I would agree that God is the same and unchanging God always. But this doesn’t preclude God using mercy or justice as it pleases him since he is beholding to no one.

 

[fred_conty]

Ok, I’m still not sure I understand then. Either way it seems that the enmity came from *man if anything, not from God. And I tend to think that the differences in attitude between old and new had to do with God dealing differently with different levels of spiritual maturity. Jesus came when the time was ripe *in human history according to Scripture. And once a person comes to believe and is baptized/justified, he’s naturally considered to be a “friend” of God’s.

That is pretty much my contention, that there is a real difference in men in the OT and in the NT. In the NT, man is as you say, “friend” of God’s. And is seen as they really are, adopted children of God. In the OT, they are seen as God’s people whom he is nurturing so that they may become the ancestral line of the all holy one, Jesus, the savior, the Alpha and Omega of all.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi, Fred!

You are engaging two distinct economies.

In the Old Testament God dealt directly with the people through the first Covenant–the Ten Commandments (the Law and the Prophets). God’s relationship was that of the Father guiding Israel (the chosen people) to the Promise (not just the promised land).

In the New Testament we find the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets in Jesus… it is here (at the Incarnation of the Word) that God’s Mercy is fully unfolded as both the old Covenant people and the new Covenant people will find Life through Jesus’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Since Christ is the Lamb of God it stands that God’s Mercy reaches back to Creation and forward to the Parousia; all will meet Judgment Day in God’s Mercy as all will be Judged by their Faith or lack of it in Christ–it is the reason why Christ descended into hades/hell so that He could Preach to those who had not known God’s Mercy in the Incarnate Word, and it is the reason why Christ proclaims that He will be Seen by all, even those who pierced Him! God’s Mercy knows no bounds!

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

Nice post. Happy Holy-days.

 

[jcrichton]

PJM, you used the magic word “impossible”.

Is it possible for a perfect God to say “no”? Or is it possible for a perfect God to show more favoritism to some than to others and still be perfect? If so, then it would be possible that God may have shown more love and favors to those in the NT than those in the OT, not so?

St Teresa, the little flower had the idea that some flowers are more glorious than others, and some are quite large while others quite small and some more beautiful. Yet all have been blessed with God’s goodness. She understood that God treats each flower differently and so she says that some souls are more favored than others too.

In the OT it seems to me some real drastic measures were taken any number of times in different ways, not only with the Chosen People, but also with other nations. But this doesn’t appear in the NT.

This doesn’t indicate that there is any difference in a perfect and all loving God in the OT and the NT. But it does indicate that there is a difference of favor.

Hi, Fred!

…I think that you are stuck on “economy.”

…how many times would the Lamb of God need to be Sacrificed?

…during the OT God dealt differently with people because the Word had not Become Incarnate.

How would sending sinners to the feet of Christ on the Cross mean anything in the Old Testament?

How could God Apply the Mercy of the New Covenant during the Old Covenant?

The economies are different!

However, the Mercy of God remains since He was patient both with the Gentiles as He is with the Jews:

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

(Romans 11:28-32)

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 St. Peter 3:9)
God’s Mercy is patent!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Agnel

 

[PJM]

PJM, you used the magic word “impossible”.

Is it possible for a perfect God to say “no”? Or is it possible for a perfect God to show more favoritism to some than to others and still be perfect? If so, then it would be possible that God may have shown more love and favors to those in the NT than those in the OT, not so?

St Teresa, the little flower had the idea that some flowers are more glorious than others, and some are quite large while others quite small and some more beautiful. Yet all have been blessed with God’s goodness. She understood that God treats each flower differently and so she says that some souls are more favored than others too.

In the OT it seems to me some real drastic measures were taken any number of times in different ways, not only with the Chosen People, but also with other nations. But this doesn’t appear in the NT.

This doesn’t indicate that there is any difference in a perfect and all loving God in the OT and the NT. But it does indicate that there is a difference of favor.

Interesting point

But the kind of judgment you suggest does not seem to have a biblical footing IMO

1 Timothy 2:4-5

, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[fred_conty]

Interesting point

But the kind of judgment you suggest does not seem to have a biblical footing IMO

1 Timothy 2:4-5

, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

God Bless you

Patrick

Yes, Jesus certainly died that all men might be saved which means that he gives all sufficient grace, in one way or another, to be saved. However some are more blessed with grace, such as our mother Mary and other great men and women, while all receive the sufficient amount.

I do believe that God is the same God in both the OT and Nt, but that he does respond differently which doesn’t make him different, but only that his treatment and favors are different.

What I think is that there has been an idea that God’s different behavour makes God different, or that behavour makes God who he is. So much so that to say that God is different in the OT is assumed to say that God himself is different which of course can’t be.

There is a parallel in this in the dark night of the soul. The behavour of God toward this person is different than one who has already passed thru the dark night. And it is common to hear someone thinking that their relationship with Jesus deteriorated because of this dark night and thru misunderstanding, think that they lost that relationship. But rather Jesus treats each one to bring them closer to himself tho it may not appear to be so at the time.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi, Fred!

…I think that you are stuck on “economy.”

…how many times would the Lamb of God need to be Sacrificed?

…during the OT God dealt differently with people because the Word had not Become Incarnate.

How would sending sinners to the feet of Christ on the Cross mean anything in the Old Testament?

How could God Apply the Mercy of the New Covenant during the Old Covenant?

The economies are different!

However, the Mercy of God remains since He was patient both with the Gentiles as He is with the Jews:

God’s Mercy is patent!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Agnel

I would agree that our relationship with God has been greatly enhanced in the NT. Since now we are made temples of the Holy Spirit, brothers to Jesus whose divine life we bear, and dear children of our Father in heaven. What a wonderful thing that is when we stop and give it some real thought.

It is true, that in the OT this was not the case and so the people in the OT did not have this spiritual closeness. And because our relationship with God has been so heightened in the NT, God would exhibit more goodness as it pleases him.

But the point of the original post was that there really isn’t a problem with thinking that God did treat people differently by the quality of his kindness in the OT from the NT. And that if God treats people in the OT differently this doesn’t make two different Gods as Marcion thought. For God can give of his goodness to the degree that pleases him and that this shouldn’t be a problem.

But I am not sure why you say that I’m stuck on “economy”?