Are people with low incomes poor?

[fakename]

That is, are people with low incomes but enough to eat, cars, a roof over their heads, etc.poor by Catholic Social Teaching?

And if they are, is it true that these people should be allowed to take what they need if necessary (on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it)?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Haven’t we already had this discussion recently?

The Catholic church is a worldwide church, the levels of poverty in other parts of the world are much more desperate than ours. A person who cannot feed their family is justified in taking bread. A person who has an income and can feed their family, perhaps not the best food, but wholesome, is not justified.

Those of us with ample incomes are called to be generous to those with less. Whatever the secular government’s ideas are about taxes has nothing to do with our duty to charity. We may choose to help those in other countries whose needs are more dire, but we can’t get out of our duty completely.

 

[1ke]

on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it

This is not Church teaching in any way, shape or form.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Haven’t we already had this discussion recently?

The Catholic church is a worldwide church, the levels of poverty in other parts of the world are much more desperate than ours. A person who cannot feed their family is justified in taking bread. A person who has an income and can feed their family, perhaps not the best food, but wholesome, is not justified.

Those of us with ample incomes are called to be generous to those with less. Whatever the secular government’s ideas are about taxes has nothing to do with our duty to charity. We may choose to help those in other countries whose needs are more dire, but we can’t get out of our duty completely.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

This is not Church teaching in any way, shape or form.

He is talking about the universal destination of goods and the times it can override an unreasonable decision of someone to hold onto property when another is in desperate need. That is Church teaching, but fakename didn’t phrase it very well.

 

[Catholic90]

And if they are, is it true that these people should be allowed to take what they need if necessary (on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it)?

Wherever do you get that idea?!?

All property is NOT for common use! My property is MY property and my neighbor’s property is HIS property. I would (rightfully) be arrested if I were to take it, and he (rightfully) would be arrested if he were to take mine.

 

[silicasandra]

He is talking about the universal destination of goods and the times it can override an unreasonable decision of someone to hold onto property when another is in desperate need. That is Church teaching, but fakename didn’t phrase it very well.

Thanks for this clarification. I was a little :ehh: when I read it at first.

In general, I would say that most people who are low income in this country would be able to find assistance for the things that they need, e.g. could qualify for food stamps or rent assistance, even if they had enough to afford a hovel or Ramen noodles every day all on their own. Seeking out that assistance would in no way qualify as stealing.

There are truly destitute people in this country and while resources in general remain available to them (food banks, shelters, etc.), I would say that there are emergency situations, such as natural disasters, that COULD make taking a loaf of bread OK - though really the person who has it should be willing to give it away. It is not an “everyday” situation for most people.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Wherever do you get that idea?!?

All property is NOT for common use! My property is MY property and my neighbor’s property is HIS property. I would (rightfully) be arrested if I were to take it, and he (rightfully) would be arrested if he were to take mine.

Well, the way the OP said it isn’t how the church teaches it. All property isn’t common property, but the the desperately poor are justified it taking what they need to feed, clothe, and shelter their family. Of course, the person who has those good in abundance is also obligated to assist the poor man, so hopefully he won’t resort to outright theivery.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

It is written:“Gd helps those who help themselves". But it is also written "Gd help those who get caught helping themselves”.

 

[Phaedra777]

That is, are people with low incomes but enough to eat, cars, a roof over their heads, etc.poor by Catholic Social Teaching?

And if they are, is it true that these people should be allowed to take what they need if necessary (on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it)?

Really?? If you have enough to eat, cars, and a place to live, you’re still poor? Why? Just because you don’t have Warren Buffett’s income? Seriously? Everyone on the planet needs a million dollars a year? Aaaack, blech, and give me a break.

And if folks are truly in need in the United States, they can and will get welfare and food stamps. No one in this country has an excuse to steal.

 

[themeginthemoon]

That is, are people with low incomes but enough to eat, cars, a roof over their heads, etc.poor by Catholic Social Teaching?

And if they are, is it true that these people should be allowed to take what they need if necessary (on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it)?

Yes, they are the working poor. Their struggles are legitimate. I am not sure what you mean by taking what they need, though… do you mean public assistance and food pantries?

 

[themeginthemoon]

Really?? If you have enough to eat, cars, and a place to live, you’re still poor? Why? Just because you don’t have Warren Buffett’s income? Seriously? Everyone on the planet needs a million dollars a year? Aaaack, blech, and give me a break.

And if folks are truly in need in the United States, they can and will get welfare and food stamps. No one in this country has an excuse to steal.

Working poor is a very real condition! Those who have enough to eat, but worry about paying the mortgage and having their cars repossessed, are called the working poor. They typically have little to no savings, and the slightest emergency or adverse situation tosses them into actual poverty and they lose those few items you mentioned and don’t eat.

Welfare is EXTREMELY hard to get for the working poor because their incomes are often just above the federal guidelines, and many food pantries operate by the same guidelines. I agree that stealing is wrong, but don’t underestimate the plight of those who are just staying above water. I grew up like that, it was really tough! Our power got cut… not a good state to be in. People also forget that getting power back on, paying bounced check fees and late fees, only buries those who are struggling deeper.

 

[Phaedra777]

Yes, they are the working poor. Their struggles are legitimate. I am not sure what you mean by taking what they need, though… do you mean public assistance and food pantries?

He is referring to–and twisting in my book–the words of St. Thomas Aquinas. In a nutshell, Aquinas said that if you are starving, you can take a loaf of bread. I agree! But today, folks stretch that to the limit and justify stealing a T.V. Blech.

And don’t even think about laying into me. I’ve been on full welfare once, food stamps one other time. At 9 dollars an hour to support myself and my daughter, I never stole a thing. I figured out the difference between a need and a want.

 

[Phaedra777]

And one more thing. Since I didn’t consider a new outfit every week, 50 purses, 100 pairs of shoes, Starbucks coffee, lunch and dinner out or convenience foods necessities, I was able to send my daughter to Catholic school from K-12.

 

[themeginthemoon]

And one more thing. Since I didn’t consider a new outfit every week, 50 purses, 100 pairs of shoes, Starbucks coffee, lunch and dinner out or convenience foods necessities, I was able to send my daughter to Catholic school from K-12.

There are plenty of working poor who do not buy outfits every week or own the gross amounts of things you listed, but may still have a car and be struggling to pay mortgage, utilities, and medical bills. Glad you could send your daughter to Catholic school based on your sacrifices, that is truly commendable.

However, I do not feel I was laying into you. I simply felt you were not being fair to those who are poor but working. Poverty definitely exists above the federal poverty line.

PS - I grew up on food stamps, and had medicaid and WIC for the first year of my daughter’s life. I understand what it is to struggle, and I am extremely grateful for those benefits. However, not all who need them are able to get them. My parents didn’t buy lots of new outfits or purses, etc, and we went without a lot of items that would probably be considered standard in the present.

 

[John21652]

That is, are people with low incomes but enough to eat, cars, a roof over their heads, etc.poor by Catholic Social Teaching?

And if they are, is it true that these people should be allowed to take what they need if necessary (on the principle that all property is for common use, so someone w/o rightufl property is in his rights to take it)?

A very basic Natural Law principle is the right to own property. Society is predicated on it.

You mightn’t like the fact that I own a private jet and holiday in the Bahamas each year, but that doesn’t give you any moral right to come take it all off me. You also can’t go around assuming that I got my private jet and Bahamanian holiday resort by ripping people off. This line of thinking begins with the sin of envy and results in the sin of theft.

PS: I don’t really own a private jet and I’ve never been to the Bahamas.

 

[themeginthemoon]

A very basic Natural Law principle is the right to own property. Society is predicated on it.

You mightn’t like the fact that I own a private jet and holiday in the Bahamas each year, but that doesn’t give you any moral right to come take it all off me. You also can’t go around assuming that I got my private jet and Bahamanian holiday resort by ripping people off. This line of thinking begins with the sin of envy and results in the sin of theft.

PS: I don’t really own a private jet and I’ve never been to the Bahamas.

Good answer.

 

[fakename]

user "themeginthemoon":

Yes, they are the working poor. Their struggles are legitimate. I am not sure what you mean by taking what they need, though… do you mean public assistance and food pantries?

I was asking “if someone doesn’t have a tv, do they have a right to take one (everything being equal) by analogy with a starving person who has the right to take bread?”

I’m sorry if I asked this before; I don’t remember it though.

 

[silicasandra]

I was asking “if someone doesn’t have a tv, do they have a right to take one (everything being equal) by analogy with a starving person who has the right to take bread?”

I’m sorry if I asked this before; I don’t remember it though.

I don’t mean to be uncharitable, but is this a genuine question?

There is no way that these could be equal situations. TV is not necessary to life (no matter what some punk kid says ), but food most definitely is.)

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I was a career sailor for many years and have seen many parts of the world that very few Canadians or US Americans rarely visit. Until you have seen real poverty such as is common in South America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia you do not know what poverty is. please note I did not include Europe because like Canada and the US most European countries have eleminated real, abject poverty. No one in these countries starves to death except through mental deficiency or the neglect of those who are supposed to take care of the poor.
The poorest people in modern European countries, Canada, and the US would be considered wealthy in many parts of the third world, and we should never forget it. We may not be perfect and we all have or social problems; but overall, G*d has truely blessed us here in North America. If you really want to give alms to the needy, I strongly recommend either Catholic Charities, or the Foreign Mission Society of your local Diocese. Unlike most modern charities like the Red Cross or other lay organizations in which their staff earns many thousands of dollars a year (in the US the head of the AMRC earns over $500,000 a year.) The Catholic Church uses over 95% of the money collected for the purposes it is given.