Are pianos approved for the liturgy?

[pianistclare]

Oh, yeah!!! I have a Protestant music director who doesn’t really have much experience with chant, so she insists on playing along, thinking that it’s right, but plays each note like they are all quarter notes. It makes it so frustrating for me to sing because I was trained in how to chant correctly. I did a funeral there where we had a sub who understood not to play and I was able to chant the In Paradisum a capella. The priest came up afterwards and told me how nice it was to hear chant done well.

That said, chant is best with no accompaniment if the people chanting does it well, although I have never heard a chanted “Our Father” done badly by the congregation.

LOL…oh trust me, chanting the Our Father can be bad when dragging…most chant has to have a fluid style. Either your choir has to practice ALOT, or a seasoned cantor has to do it.
There is a fabulous parish in Alabama where the entire congregation chants, and it is glorious. But I understand it took a lot of training, patience, and a true desire from everyone to get it right. And they are enjoying the fruits of that effort.

 

[Sarabande]

LOL…oh trust me, chanting the Our Father can be bad when dragging…most chant has to have a fluid style. Either your choir has to practice ALOT, or a seasoned cantor has to do it.
There is a fabulous parish in Alabama where the entire congregation chants, and it is glorious. But I understand it took a lot of training, patience, and a true desire from everyone to get it right. And they are enjoying the fruits of that effort.

Agreed. I think with all of the parishes I’ve been in that chanted the Our Father every week on a regular basis, the congregation had to have been very well-practiced as they have done it for years. The thing you have to worry about, though, is a priest who likes to drag everything and forgets to turn his mic off. lol!

The other chants, well… because most of these parishes have just started learning the rest, they don’t do it so well. Last year, I sang for my grandmother’s funeral mass. The parish had years of chanting and Latin, as well as doing a weekly EF mass, so all of the people attending who were parishioners did every chant beautifully. The pastor is young, at least around my generation (30s) and have supported and promoted all of this. They had a great volunteer choir and a well-trained choir director/organist who understood the liturgy and knew what he was doing. He was a joy to work with because sometimes you don’t know who you will be getting when you’re the guest singer.

 

[Cat]

The question of money/cost has come up several times in this thread.

I’m currently reading Imperfect Harmony: Finding Happiness Singing with Others by Stacy Horn. This book is just what it sounds like–a book about singing in various choirs. Ms. Horn’s choir is the Choral Society of Grace Church in New York.

The book is a little tough to take, as Ms. Horn is a professed agnostic–I just have a hard time with the idea of singing Handel’s Messiah and walking away not believing in the One that you were just singing about.

But the book still has many merits. Ms. Horn tells the history of corporate or choral singing, especially the U.S. history, and describes the origins of many singing societies and choirs, including the Choral Society of Grace Church in New York. What every one of these choirs has in common is that much of the expenses are paid for by wealthy people.

That’s historically the way good music has been disseminated–those who are well-off donate so that those who are poor can share the good music.

For the famous choirs like Ms. Horn’s choir, there are foundations and organizations who join wealthy individuals to contribute the hundreds of thousands of dollars necessary to pay for the choir’s season.

For most community and church choirs, it is the wealthier people in the town or in the parish who give the money to pay for the organ, the orchestra, the rehearsal accompanist, the music books, etc.

I realize that in the poorer parishes, the “rich” might not be all that rich, and won’t be able to foot the bill for a pipe organ or a Director of Music. But they are still the ones most likely to be able to afford to have the piano tuned, or donate a used guitar, or maybe even provide a stipend or a good dinner for a special guest soloist on Easter.

And in most parishes, there are truly wealthy people or at least people who are better off than others, and IMO, it is the responsibility of these people to do as wealthy people have done throughout history, and make it possible for even the poor to enjoy beautiful music.

That, BTW, is how our parish acquired one of the most beautiful and exciting pipe organs in our city. It was donated by a family in memory of their loved ones.

And in my own small way, I donate. I don’t share this to brag, but only to encourage others to do likewise–I donate my playing to my own parish. I also donate my playing to other deserving organizations in the area. I am fortunate to be able to do this; I realize that other pianists cannot do this because they must make a living wage. But my situation (I work full time and so does my husband) allows me the joy of donating my playing to those who otherwise would not be able to afford to hire an accompanist. I play for a Catholic school in my city that is starting up–all the money in the world could not buy the sheer joy and delight that I experience when I play for this school. And I play for old folks–these people are the best audience and give me much more than I give them.

I hope that if any of you are in a place where you can donate towards the expenses of good music in your parish (whatever you consider that to be!), that you will do so. You will gain much, and you will experience the thrill of knowing that many people are blessed because of your action.

 

[hsmomforlife]

I also heard a Mass in Mexico, had over 20 traditional and classical guitars (no electrics) all playing the Mass music. Some of the most beautiful music I’ve heard in years! I was in tears listening to over 200 voices singing together in Spanish, praising God and 20+ guitars playing the melody with them. Now that type of “non-traditional” Mass music I can appreciate! Don’t think I’d really like electric guitars and drums. (Haven’t heard that done). But some people seem to like them, or perhaps that’s all they have, local musicians and no piano or organ for economic reasons. So long as they are praising God, and not “performing” to show off, I can live with it.

I have never, ever wanted to go to Mexico. (I’m a shade lover, and love the beach, but the shores of Lake Michigan are more my style! I do not like to be hot…or sweat! LOL)
Now…I might like to go for a Sunday Mass where you went Your description just swept me awaaaay!

It’s the reverence and love that make music sacred, not the instrument, tempo etc.
(I do have to say that I can’t stand the ‘guitar’ Masses at the local churches in my area…the music is so musician centered and has such a ''kumbaya" feeling…ick)

 

[hsmomforlife]

The question of money/cost has come up several times in this thread.

I’ I play for a Catholic school in my city that is starting up–all the money in the world could not buy the sheer joy and delight that I experience when I play for this school. And I play for old folks–these people are the best audience and give me much more than I give them.

I hope that if any of you are in a place where you can donate towards the expenses of good music in your parish (whatever you consider that to be!), that you will do so. You will gain much, and you will experience the thrill of knowing that many people are blessed because of your action.

Unfortunately, I can’t carry a tune in a donated basket…therefore neither can my children. However, I have a really techno-savy son who could learn to make flyers…
I also have a ‘hands on’ son, who could help with any ‘issues’ that come up in the physical issues of ‘the space’ to perform…
my point is that you need to look beyond the singing and instrumental ability and realize that 21st century support is here…who can build a webpage to share your work? who can build a Facebook following? Who can Tweet on a regular basis to help keep your work in the front of everyone’s mind??

 

[judynurse]

I have never, ever wanted to go to Mexico. (I’m a shade lover, and love the beach, but the shores of Lake Michigan are more my style! I do not like to be hot…or sweat! LOL)
Now…I might like to go for a Sunday Mass where you went Your description just swept me awaaaay!

It’s the reverence and love that make music sacred, not the instrument, tempo etc.
(I do have to say that I can’t stand the ‘guitar’ Masses at the local churches in my area…the music is so musician centered and has such a ''kumbaya" feeling…ick)

When I heard that Mass for the first time in Mexico, I was there on vacation – it was either mid-November or January. I think the first visit there was in November. It was still pretty warm (in the 80’s in the afternoons). That Church was in the poor district, not where the local “snow bird” Americans go, or the wealthy. It’s a large, adobe building about 300 years old. No air conditioning and no electricity. And it was standing room only – I kid you not, all the walls along the side were packed, as was the back of the Church. They had 4 priests distributing Communion about half-way down the Church and 2 in the front. It still took at least 20 - 25 minutes for all the Communion to be distributed! And the Guitar group played very softly and beautifully with just the 12 string classical guitars all through the Communion time! When they played for the Congregation to sing at the Recessional, I thought the tile roof would lift – So many lovely voices, guided by a choir of about 25, and over 200 people singing with them! Gorgeous! In January and February, it’s only a high of 70-75F in the afternoon, nights and mornings are cool. I have never seen that Parish less than packed on a Sunday morning!! I went there with my dear husband before his death about 17 times in a 15 year period. We always planned to stay over a weekend so we could go to that Mass. Some people had sandals so old, they were more holes than leather, some sandals were woven from palm fronds. Everyone was scrubbed, wearing the best they had, and so joyous! People here should see something like that once in their life! (All the women wore scarfs or mantillas, of course, including me!)

 

[robwar]

I missed this part. I think it depends. My generation is basically the children of the hippie generation. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. Although my parents weren’t hippies (they were the few people of their time who didn’t engage in “free love”), many of my classmates’ parents were.

It’s only anecdotal, but from my experience dealing with people of that particular generation, the organ represented a Church that they did not like. In some respects, it was a Church that they despised. It represented Latin mass, the old, stern priests and the nuns too happy to beat them at school. Even my parents at one time in their younger lives, loved hearing the folk guitar at mass because it represented a new Church… not what they grew up with. They laugh now about that time and couldn’t believe how misguided they were when it came to music at mass. As a young teen, I was like the “old fogie” in our family when it came to liturgical music. lol! Perhaps it was my unknowing rebellion against the hippie generation. haha!

I was responding to a comment of another poster. i grew-up in later 60-70 so I guess I would qualify as a later hippie generation but I liked the organ as well as guitar, piano and all the rest. I have seen it used a number of times on CAF and it is an unfair generalization.

 

[robwar]

The question of money/cost has come up several times in this thread.

I’m currently reading Imperfect Harmony: Finding Happiness Singing with Others by Stacy Horn. This book is just what it sounds like–a book about singing in various choirs. Ms. Horn’s choir is the Choral Society of Grace Church in New York.

The book is a little tough to take, as Ms. Horn is a professed agnostic–I just have a hard time with the idea of singing Handel’s Messiah and walking away not believing in the One that you were just singing about.

But the book still has many merits. Ms. Horn tells the history of corporate or choral singing, especially the U.S. history, and describes the origins of many singing societies and choirs, including the Choral Society of Grace Church in New York. What every one of these choirs has in common is that much of the expenses are paid for by wealthy people.

That’s historically the way good music has been disseminated–those who are well-off donate so that those who are poor can share the good music.

For the famous choirs like Ms. Horn’s choir, there are foundations and organizations who join wealthy individuals to contribute the hundreds of thousands of dollars necessary to pay for the choir’s season.

For most community and church choirs, it is the wealthier people in the town or in the parish who give the money to pay for the organ, the orchestra, the rehearsal accompanist, the music books, etc.

I realize that in the poorer parishes, the “rich” might not be all that rich, and won’t be able to foot the bill for a pipe organ or a Director of Music. But they are still the ones most likely to be able to afford to have the piano tuned, or donate a used guitar, or maybe even provide a stipend or a good dinner for a special guest soloist on Easter.

And in most parishes, there are truly wealthy people or at least people who are better off than others, and IMO, it is the responsibility of these people to do as wealthy people have done throughout history, and make it possible for even the poor to enjoy beautiful music.

That, BTW, is how our parish acquired one of the most beautiful and exciting pipe organs in our city. It was donated by a family in memory of their loved ones.

And in my own small way, I donate. I don’t share this to brag, but only to encourage others to do likewise–I donate my playing to my own parish. I also donate my playing to other deserving organizations in the area. I am fortunate to be able to do this; I realize that other pianists cannot do this because they must make a living wage. But my situation (I work full time and so does my husband) allows me the joy of donating my playing to those who otherwise would not be able to afford to hire an accompanist. I play for a Catholic school in my city that is starting up–all the money in the world could not buy the sheer joy and delight that I experience when I play for this school. And I play for old folks–these people are the best audience and give me much more than I give them.

I hope that if any of you are in a place where you can donate towards the expenses of good music in your parish (whatever you consider that to be!), that you will do so. You will gain much, and you will experience the thrill of knowing that many people are blessed because of your action.

wonderful ideas Cat.

 

[robwar]

I have never, ever wanted to go to Mexico. (I’m a shade lover, and love the beach, but the shores of Lake Michigan are more my style! I do not like to be hot…or sweat! LOL)
Now…I might like to go for a Sunday Mass where you went Your description just swept me awaaaay!

It’s the reverence and love that make music sacred, not the instrument, tempo etc.
(I do have to say that I can’t stand the ‘guitar’ Masses at the local churches in my area…the music is so musician centered and has such a ''kumbaya" feeling…ick)

Sorry you can’t stand guitar Masses because I have never been to a Mass lead by a guitar that either my husband or I didn’t like. The sub for the organist for our organist is a classical guitarist and when he leads, it is the most beautiful softest reverent music.Just remember that the most be loved Christmas carol “Silent Night” was written for guitar since the organ was broken for Christmas Mass. People limit themselves by their generalizations in their minds. Another wonderful instrument I would love to see at Mass is the harp. The book of Psalms was written for string instruments.

 

[Sarabande]

I was responding to a comment of another poster. i grew-up in later 60-70 so I guess I would qualify as a later hippie generation but I liked the organ as well as guitar, piano and all the rest. I have seen it used a number of times on CAF and it is an unfair generalization.

That’s why I said that it depends and that my experience with people of that generation was only anecdotal as I was not trying to generalise. I’m glad that you were not like the others. My parents were like you. They liked the guitar because it represented a new church for them, but they did not “hate” the organ. I grew up in a well-rounded household when it came to music and loved my parents’ folk records as well as their classical and rock records. Unfortunately, many of the other adults I knew growing up who did not like the organ were not like that. It is unfortunate that they had that bad of experience when they were younger to have felt that way about the organ and chant and other traditional music. For some they were almost vitriolic and I’d be lectured and made to feel like a stupid kid to even want anything like that at mass. I was told that no one did that kind of music anymore and good riddance and I shouldn’t even think about bringing it back.

In fact, even though I never really felt the guitar was appropriate for mass, I never actually complained about it as a young person either. The music liturgy team that I headed for a couple years at my college Newman Center used guitars and piano. They were the only instruments we had and most of my music major friends who could have played other instruments, like our electric organ found paying jobs at regular churches. I couldn’t even get other voice majors because they got jobs in scholas at protestant churches. So it was just me who was studying voice, other students who weren’t singers , but could hold a tune, and a couple music major friends of mine whose main instruments were not anything that could be used at a paying church. I was able to recruit them to play the guitar as it was a second instrument they could play. I’m practical and will work with what I have.

It wasn’t until after college and I began to read more of the documents and experienced masses in the city that didn’t say “good riddance” that I went through a sort of a mourning period and a period of anger for all the years lost and for the lies I was told. I’m no longer grieving or angry. What does anger bring but a cloud of darkness and bitterness? I found that those who were on the opposite end of the spectrum when it came to liturgical music, especially those from my parents’ generation were hurting as well. As a freelancer I always treated everyone of my colleagues with respect and professionalism. I pretty much get along with everyone and make things work. I was able to show certain colleagues that not all classically trained musicians or traditionally-minded people think less of them. In turn they did the same. Most of us, no matter where our talents lie and knowledge of the liturgy, are sincere in providing prayer and spiritual beauty through the music

I will say that I don’t come across as many people like that anymore. Even colleagues I 've known for years who used to be almost borderline vitriolic about organs and traditional music have mellowed out a lot. Perhaps it’s age and maturity. Perhaps wounds have healed. Perhaps it’s just that years have passed and people have changed. Perhaps it’s because more parishes in my area have gone more middle of the road and have worked to bring the organ pride of place and even incorporate a little more chant and latin so less people (church musicians, I mean, because I think the majority of people in the pews don’t think about it too much) feel that there is no longer a battle against them from either side. Church music politics can still be pretty frustrating and demoralizing especially when you don’t want any part of it, but at least the battle aspect has been disappearing.

 

[Sarabande]

Sorry you can’t stand guitar Masses because I have never been to a Mass lead by a guitar that either my husband or I didn’t like. The sub for the organist for our organist is a classical guitarist and when he leads, it is the most beautiful softest reverent music.Just remember that the most be loved Christmas carol “Silent Night” was written for guitar since the organ was broken for Christmas Mass. People limit themselves by their generalizations in their minds. Another wonderful instrument I would love to see at Mass is the harp. The book of Psalms was written for string instruments.

A classical guitar can be wonderful. I think many people have generalisations about guitars at mass, though, because for many churches the guitarists aren’t classical guitarists. It’s often a lot of strumming or played in a style that isn’t classical. When you have a good musician, as with any instrument, whether guitar , organ, piano or voice, and they understand liturgy as well as appropriate ways of using their instrument for mass, the end product will be beautiful, reverent and prayerful. When you don’t have quality musicians that is where people’s biases come into play.

I’ve sung a number of masses with a harpist and it can be very beautiful. They are often used as an additional instrument to the organ because even if they can use an amp, it’s not enough to support a large congregation. When used as the main instrument, it has been for wedding masses where I was the soloist and the congregation is smaller so that they could support with the mass parts.

 

[pianistclare]

A classical guitar can be wonderful. I think many people have generalisations about guitars at mass, though, because for many churches the guitarists aren’t classical guitarists. **It’s often a lot of strumming or played in a style that **isn’t classical. When you have a good musician, as with any instrument, whether guitar , organ, piano or voice, and they understand liturgy as well as appropriate ways of using their instrument for mass, the end product will be beautiful, reverent and prayerful. When you don’t have quality musicians that is where people’s biases come into play.

I’ve sung a number of masses with a harpist and it can be very beautiful. They are often used as an additional instrument to the organ because even if they can use an amp, it’s not enough to support a large congregation. When used as the main instrument, it has been for wedding masses where I was the soloist and the congregation is smaller so that they could support with the mass parts.

Very true. The country and western Mass is really inappropriate, in my opinion. The scooping of phrases, and the playing of every hymn in 4/4 time regardless of what the time signature is supposed to be to account for the strumming can be maddening. Try singing Taste and See in 4/4 time with a country beat, and it destroys the whole prayer time. Likewise, catchy tune Lamb of God settings for me, anyway, really disappoint and take so much away from tone of one of the most reverent of moments in the Mass.
This of course does not occur at EVERY guitar Mass (don’t jump on me, please) but it’s something that has to be addressed when folk choirs are assembled. The problem I have run across in many cases, is that the people who play in this style are self-taught play-by- ear sort of folks. When the occasional problems occur and approached by the Director or the priest, they say “well, we’re just volunteers, and if you expect us to change or learn something new, we’ll just pick up our toys and go home” leaving the priest upset and the Director shrugging. We have to kind and gracious to our volunteers, but they also need to be willing to take direction.
It’s a huge challenge for leadership to keep all the music ministries content and appropriate without hurt feelings, anger, resentment or feeling unappreciated. Most Music Directors have to swallow a lot of guff and exercise a lot of diplomacy. Education is key, and some people just want to “be involved” and not have to adjust their style for the Church. Which makes the really talented, reverent, and liturgically correct musicians so invaluable. And there are a lot of them out there. Just not nearly enough.

 

[Sarabande]

Very true. The country and western Mass is really inappropriate, in my opinion. The scooping of phrases, and the playing of every hymn in 4/4 time regardless of what the time signature is supposed to be to account for the strumming can be maddening. Try singing Taste and See in 4/4 time with a country beat, and it destroys the whole prayer time. Likewise, catchy tune Lamb of God settings for me, anyway, really disappoint and take so much away from tone of one of the most reverent of moments in the Mass.
This of course does not occur at EVERY guitar Mass (don’t jump on me, please) but it’s something that has to be addressed when folk choirs are assembled. The problem I have run across in many cases, is that the people who play in this style are self-taught play-by- ear sort of folks. When the occasional problems occur and approached by the Director or the priest, they say “well, we’re just volunteers, and if you expect us to change or learn something new, we’ll just pick up our toys and go home” leaving the priest upset and the Director shrugging. We have to kind and gracious to our volunteers, but they also need to be willing to take direction.
It’s a huge challenge for leadership to keep all the music ministries content and appropriate without hurt feelings, anger, resentment or feeling unappreciated. Most Music Directors have to swallow a lot of guff and exercise a lot of diplomacy. Education is key, and some people just want to “be involved” and not have to adjust their style for the Church. Which makes the really talented, reverent, and liturgically correct musicians so invaluable. And there are a lot of them out there. Just not nearly enough.

To all that you said. As you said, education is definitely key and the willingness of paid and volunteer musicians to learn.

My experiences have been similar to yours. I work regularly at three parishes, but I also freelance a lot. I recently counted up all of the Catholic churches I’ve freelanced in within my diocese and surrounding dioceses, because a potential client wanted to know how many Catholic churches I’ve sung in. It was close to 150, not including all of the other Protestant churches and secular venues I’ve worked in, so, I’ve experienced and have had to pleasure to know many different kinds of musicians. Some of the musicians who worked in the Catholic churches understood and knew a lot about the liturgy and did a wonderful job. Out of those who did know, there were some who had their hands tied either by liturgy committees or pastors who didn’t want to follow what was liturgically correct, but use only what they liked and wanted. If they wanted to keep their jobs, they swallowed hard and did as they were told. Then there were others who didn’t know much about liturgy. Most of them were people who were doing their best and were often parishioners from the parish giving of their time, but just didn’t have the education and knowledge to know what was liturgically correct. Then there were some of those who were not Catholic and just didn’t have a complete understanding. I found this in organists and other instrumentalists, so I’m not picking on any one particular group of instrumentalist.

 

[Sarabande]

The question of money/cost has come up several times in this thread.

…

That’s historically the way good music has been disseminated–those who are well-off donate so that those who are poor can share the good music.

…

And in most parishes, there are truly wealthy people or at least people who are better off than others, and IMO, it is the responsibility of these people to do as wealthy people have done throughout history, and make it possible for even the poor to enjoy beautiful music.

That, BTW, is how our parish acquired one of the most beautiful and exciting pipe organs in our city. It was donated by a family in memory of their loved ones.

I had to cut much of your post, but I do want to say that you make very good points. In much of church music history there were often wealthy patrons either in the church, such as bishops and and cardinals, or other wealthy Catholics, aristocracy, royalty, etc. They would commission the best composers of the day to write masses and sacred motets in honor of loved ones, winning a battle or entire war, births of future kings, etc. They would help fund the musicians to play this music at mass. The Church would sometimes commission the composers to sometimes write a new piece of music every week for mass. They used their money to pay for the best musicians they could find, to educate them in music. They developed boy-choirs where they were trained from an early age to read music, to chant, sing motets and also learn other instruments. They had these choirs for free as they were still students. The choir master and organist would be paid. Some bishops, such as the Archbishop of Salzburg in the 18th c. who employed Mozart as one of his composers, had complete orchestras to play at his functions at the palace and also used to perform special masses at the cathedral

Those are things that just aren’t a part of life today. In some ways, we can’t expect the same level of output in music or musicianship at most places because we don’t have the same kind of patronage from wealthy parishioners. The importance of quality musicianship or music is not what it was in the past. Wealthy people are not as willing to give their money in that fashion. Perhaps they are more willing to give to the poor rather than to the music program, or none of the above.

For the places where I work regularly, the only reason I am paid is because of the generosity of the parishioners. They want quality liturgical music and musicians, so they are willing to pay for it. They are well-off parishes so it can be done and some have figured out ways to have a fund just for the music. I know music directors whose entire salaries are paid by wealthy parishioners. It isn’t much in terms of needing to support a family, but enough to live in a studio apartment by yourself and live very frugally.

And in my own small way, I donate. I don’t share this to brag, but only to encourage others to do likewise–I donate my playing to my own parish. I also donate my playing to other deserving organizations in the area. I am fortunate to be able to do this; I realize that other pianists cannot do this because they must make a living wage. But my situation (I work full time and so does my husband) allows me the joy of donating my playing to those who otherwise would not be able to afford to hire an accompanist. I play for a Catholic school in my city that is starting up–all the money in the world could not buy the sheer joy and delight that I experience when I play for this school. And I play for old folks–these people are the best audience and give me much more than I give them.

I hope that if any of you are in a place where you can donate towards the expenses of good music in your parish (whatever you consider that to be!), that you will do so. You will gain much, and you will experience the thrill of knowing that many people are blessed because of your action.

It is wonderful when you can donate your time. I try to every once in a while, but I often can’t as it is my main source of revenue and without that extra income, we can’t live on my husband’s salary alone. I wish I could do more of it.

 

[pianistclare]

To all that you said. As you said, education is definitely key and the willingness of paid and volunteer musicians to learn.

My experiences have been similar to yours. I work regularly at three parishes, but I also freelance a lot. I recently counted up all of the Catholic churches I’ve freelanced in within my diocese and surrounding dioceses, because a potential client wanted to know how many Catholic churches I’ve sung in. It was close to 150, not including all of the other Protestant churches and secular venues I’ve worked in, so, I’ve experienced and have had to pleasure to know many different kinds of musicians. Some of the musicians who worked in the Catholic churches understood and knew a lot about the liturgy and did a wonderful job. Out of those who did know, there were some who had their hands tied either by liturgy committees or pastors who didn’t want to follow what was liturgically correct, but use only what they liked and wanted. If they wanted to keep their jobs, they swallowed hard and did as they were told. Then there were others who didn’t know much about liturgy. Most of them were people who were doing their best and were often parishioners from the parish giving of their time, but just didn’t have the education and knowledge to know what was liturgically correct. Then there were some of those who were not Catholic and just didn’t have a complete understanding. I found this in organists and other instrumentalists, so I’m not picking on any one particular group of instrumentalist.

Yes, and I think that’s where we get come issues…pianists and organists who are not Catholic or have a recent conversion believe that ALL church music is Church music, meaning “suitable for Church”. Mass music is a whole other thing, and it’s often wrong for us as Directors to assume that they are aware of the distinction. This goes back to my post about The Old Rugged Cross that everyone got all worked up about. There’s a way to incorporate the music into the Mass that is not in conflict with the celebration. There is a distinction between “oh, it’s one of my favorites and” and it’s place is RIGHT HERE in the liturgy. This is the education that we all need initially and should to keep up with. I feel like if these matters were addressed at the onset beyond “can you play, will you work for this amount, and when can you start?” questions. Like when you just said that the pastor wanted to know how much experience you’ve had and in what settings. THAT is a proper way to begin.

 

[robwar]

To all that you said. As you said, education is definitely key and the willingness of paid and volunteer musicians to learn.

My experiences have been similar to yours. I work regularly at three parishes, but I also freelance a lot. I recently counted up all of the Catholic churches I’ve freelanced in within my diocese and surrounding dioceses, because a potential client wanted to know how many Catholic churches I’ve sung in. It was close to 150, not including all of the other Protestant churches and secular venues I’ve worked in, so, I’ve experienced and have had to pleasure to know many different kinds of musicians. Some of the musicians who worked in the Catholic churches understood and knew a lot about the liturgy and did a wonderful job. Out of those who did know, there were some who had their hands tied either by liturgy committees or pastors who didn’t want to follow what was liturgically correct, but use only what they liked and wanted. If they wanted to keep their jobs, they swallowed hard and did as they were told. Then there were others who didn’t know much about liturgy. Most of them were people who were doing their best and were often parishioners from the parish giving of their time, but just didn’t have the education and knowledge to know what was liturgically correct. Then there were some of those who were not Catholic and just didn’t have a complete understanding. I found this in organists and other instrumentalists, so I’m not picking on any one particular group of instrumentalist.

I think I would love to hear you sing and have either Cat or Pianoclaire accompany you.
Maybe because my background was growing up Methodist with great Wesleyan Hymns was well as having classical piano lesson for 12 years that I appreciate classical and traditional church music. I also have taken folk guitar lessons and played with my husband for a while in a Catholic Charismatic group that we both love more lively energetic music as well. I see both sides of the issues and if ever able with my husband to get back to guitar, I think we would have more knowledge about the liturgy to work with whoever than but heads with either the priest or music director. What is kinda sad is that usually what I’ve seen on CAF coming from a more traditionalist mindset is that they look at a 1903 document and then want to literally apply it in today’s world which isn’t either realistic or even a mis application of what St. Pope Pius X was saying and addressing then.

 

[hsmomforlife]

Sorry you can’t stand guitar Masses because I have never been to a Mass lead by a guitar that either my husband or I didn’t like. The sub for the organist for our organist is a classical guitarist and when he leads, it is the most beautiful softest reverent music.Just remember that the most be loved Christmas carol “Silent Night” was written for guitar since the organ was broken for Christmas Mass. People limit themselves by their generalizations in their minds. Another wonderful instrument I would love to see at Mass is the harp. The book of Psalms was written for string instruments.

Hmmm, interesting. Any Mass that I have ever been to where the music was led by someone playing a guitar, it was an attempt to ‘folk’ up the Mass. Don’t get me wrong, I like folk music, but not at Mass.
I’m not limiting myself because of any generalizations, just expressing my experience thus far.
The harp could be wonderful…it’s so heavenly!