Are protestants able to go to Heaven?

[BrushedByAngels]

Well several others on this forum claim that if you are catholic and then reject the ONE TRUE CHURCH you are being disobedient and that alone will put you in mortal sin.

I wonder if there is any scripture that refers to this statement so to back it up?

 

[Della]

My ex’s mother was a devout Christian. She was a born and raised catholic, then she became Baptist. I seriously thought she was going to Heaven. She rejected catholicism, but she was an example of a fine christian. I can’t imagine her not going to Heaven. I remember at her funeral thinking she will be in heaven very soon (because of her christianity)

So would you say she will spend eternity in Hell or Purgatory?

We cannot decide where she should have gone, only God can do that. He alone knows why she left the Catholic Church to be a Baptist. Most Catholics who leave don’t do so because they fully know everything the Church teaches and why. and then reject it. They leave for a myriad of reasons, usually personal ones. Also, Catholics are often proselytized away from their faith by being told that what the Church teaches is not in the Bible (according to the one doing the proselytizing) and that the Catholic has been lied to all his life. Poorly catechised Catholics often fall for such sensationalism, buying it hook, line and sinker without ever giving their own faith the benefit of the doubt. Does that mean they cannot be good Protestants? No. Does it mean an automatic ticket to hell? Again, no. But, it’s not a good thing, either. Still, only God can judge such a person’s heart/intentions/understanding. Not us. It’s why we pray for our dead instead of assuming they are either in heaven or in hell.

 

[Godfollower]

Well several others on this forum claim that if you are catholic and then reject the ONE TRUE CHURCH you are being disobedient and that alone will put you in mortal sin.

I wonder if there is any scripture that refers to this statement so to back it up?

I’m not sure they’re accurately repeating the teaching of the Church. Here’s what the Church actually teaches on this issue:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶ 846 (citing Lumen Gentium ¶ 14, Mark 16:16, and John 3:5).

The Catechism goes on to discuss those who don’t know Jesus or His Church:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC ¶ 847 (citing Lumen Gentium ¶ 16).

In fact, the Church teaches that all are related to the Church in one way or another:

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.

Lumen Gentium ¶ 13.

Here’s the bottom line: The Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit, which prevents the Church from definitively teaching error in faith or morals. Rejecting that Church after “knowing” that the Church is God’s instrument makes it, shall we say, difficult to accept God’s grace. But rejecting the Church without “knowing” that the Church is God’s instrument is not a barrier to receiving God’s grace, because honestly searching for God’s truth will eventually lead you to Him.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

I’m not sure they’re accurately repeating the teaching of the Church. Here’s what the Church actually teaches on this issue:

Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶ 846 (citing Lumen Gentium ¶ 14, Mark 16:16, and John 3:5).

The Catechism goes on to discuss those who don’t know Jesus or His Church:

CCC ¶ 847 (citing Lumen Gentium ¶ 16).

In fact, the Church teaches that all are related to the Church in one way or another:

Lumen Gentium ¶ 13.

Here’s the bottom line: The Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit, which prevents the Church from definitively teaching error in faith or morals. Rejecting that Church after “knowing” that the Church is God’s instrument makes it, shall we say, difficult to accept God’s grace. But rejecting the Church without “knowing” that the Church is God’s instrument is not a barrier to receiving God’s grace, because honestly searching for God’s truth will eventually lead you to Him.

Said this earlier in this thread and saying it again in another topic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If a catholic christian believes the Catholic Church is the one true church but prefers to worship in an Anglican Catholic environment then that person will be going to Hell. Correct? Thats the way it was explained to me last week. If a Catholic Christian believes the Catholic Church is the one true Church but ‘prefers’ to worship in an Anglican environment and does not attend the Catholic Church anymore, AND DOES NOT REPENT BEFORE DEATH, that person will at death have chosen hell. Actions have consequences.

My boss at work is an Athiest and he thinks religion is a sign of weakness, he does not believe in God at all. (He and I get into heated discussions and its like talking to a wall - we are not on the same page.) He is a good person though… so are you saying he has a better chance at getting into heaven than someone who is RC and worships in an Anglican Catholic Church?

God gives each and every one of us sufficient grace to be saved. It is up to us whether we choose to accept that salvation or not. Being ‘a good person’ is not enough. . .there is no way that ‘goodness’ (itself a subject term which changes wildly depending on what an individual claims is ‘good’)can ‘earn’ salvation.

Your boss who doesn’t believe at all has the same chance to accept salvation as the man currently apostate from the Catholic Church and worshiping in an Anglican church even though he accepts the Catholic Church as true, Both of them need to accept as true something that differs from their current practice. Your boss needs to accept God’s existence, and your person worshipping at the Anglican Church needs to accept that he is wrong to reject the complete truth for something that is not as complete purely because he prefers the ‘aesthetics’.

And only God knows what is in the minds and hearts of these people. . and each of them has equal opportunity to learn and know the truth, to accept it before death, and to choose salvation.

When I say the person who rejects the Church (knowing it is true) will if he does not repent have chosen hell, I don’t mean he has done so because I have ‘judged him’. I haven’t. God has. I am simply pointing out the consequence of an action which is deliberately and freely chosen even though it is known to be gravely wrong. (I mean, really, how many people, in the event of a nuclear disaster, if they were offered the choice between knowing the TRUE way to escape and be safe that led up a high mountain on a rocky road, and a way that MIGHT be safe for part of the way but then could just peter out to nowhere or wind up back in the middle of the firestorm, but was all paved and downhill and comfy, would say, “gee, give me the way which isn’t true!” So why if we would want to be guaranteed safety from a nuclear storm would we turn up our noses at the guaranteed Church --and we KNOW it’s guaranteed --just because some different church has better singers, or more comfortable pews, or the cutest girls attend it, or the best-connected people, etc. etc.?)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well several others on this forum claim that if you are catholic and then reject the ONE TRUE CHURCH you are being disobedient and that alone will put you in mortal sin.

I wonder if there is any scripture that refers to this statement so to back it up?

Hon, you don’t seem to understand.

We have tried to make it clear.

If you know that killing a man is a grave sin, but you do it anyway because you want something he has and that’s how you get it. . .you have commited a mortal sin. . .because the 3 conditions are met: Full knowledge (you know this is a grave or mortal sin). Grave sin (murder is grave sin), and full consent of the will (you do it anyway because you put what YOU want over the life of a human being.

So it’s the same thing with any mortal sin.

Full knowledge (you KNOW the Church is the one True Church. You know that you SHOULD belong to and obey that Church because it IS the one true Church. You are a baptized Catholic over the age of reason, and you reject the Church).
Grave matter (rejection of Truth is tantamount to rejection of God. It is wilful disobedience of God to reject ANY truth, and it is grave matter to reject the Church which He himself established and which you had been a member of, when you KNOW and accept it IS true but still refuse to obey because you 'like another service better.")

Full consent of the will. (You are not confused, you are not coerced, you do not think "this other church is really the true one, the Catholic Church isn’t.)

And UNREPENTED at death.

Now from what you say of your ex’s mother, we have absolutely no knowledge whether she thought the Catholic Church was true and rejected it, or whether she thought the Catholic Church was ‘wrong’ and went to a Church she thought was the ‘true one’ instead.

We have no knowledge as to whether she might have felt coerced into joining, or whether something had confused her or misled her.

We have no knowledge as to whether she repented at death or not.

So when we say, “A person who knows the Church is true, rejects it for another which he does not think is true, and does not repent at death will have chosen hell”. . .

We aren’t saying, “any person who was Catholic and left the church will burn in hell.” There are a LOT of conditions which have to be met and held AT THE TIME OF DEATH. God is very merciful.

We are simply saying what WOULD happen if ALL the conditions were met.

But as to your ex’s mother, we have no way of knowing if any of the conditions were met, so we absolutely do not know her state. It is entirely possible that even though she ‘was’ Catholic and ‘changed’ to another religion that she did not do so with full knowledge, did not realize it was grave matter, did not give a full informed consent, or did not remain ‘obstinant’ until death. . .in any of which cases she could wind up not guilty of mortal sin or having repented and been forgiven.

 

[meltzerboy]

Who is in Heaven and who is in Hell is a matter available only to the Creator. That is why He is God and we are not. To entertain the idea that we can ‘know for sure’ is no different than the fundamentalist who pushes “once saved always saved”.
ALL OF US are consigned to the mercy of God.
That is a truth that humbles us and forces us not to speculate or presume.

Well said!

 

[meltzerboy]

By the way, the Catholic concept of Purgatory, which is being discussed here, is not unique. In Judaism, we speak of Gehenna, a place in which the souls of the wicked (some Jews believe every departed soul) is to be purified and atoned for before either entering Heaven or, if truly unable to be atoned for because it is too evil, then destroyed by being separated from G-d. There is, however, no Hell.

 

[moondweller]

Only God knows.

Based on the responses on this thread, it seems to me not even Catholics know if they’re going to heaven. So it’s kind of odd for a Catholic to ask if Protestants are able to go, when Catholics themselves don’t know if they’re going.

 

[pablope]

By the way, the Catholic concept of Purgatory, which is being discussed here, is not unique. In Judaism, we speak of Gehenna, a place in which the souls of the wicked (some Jews believe every departed soul) is to be purified and atoned for before either entering Heaven or, if truly unable to be atoned for because it is too evil, then destroyed by being separated from G-d. There is, however, no Hell.

I think the Catholic understanding of Purgatory came from our Jewish roots.

 

[dje101]

By the way, the Catholic concept of Purgatory, which is being discussed here, is not unique. In Judaism, we speak of Gehenna, a place in which the souls of the wicked (some Jews believe every departed soul) is to be purified and atoned for before either entering Heaven or, if truly unable to be atoned for because it is too evil, then destroyed by being separated from G-d. There is, however, no Hell.

wow, that is crazy. but, in the “good” and “cool” sense. my brother an I have had many discussions about the doctrine of purgatory and he seems to think that the Catholic Church is just reading into the scripture. wonder what he’ll think when i tell him that even judaism has almost the same doctrine. thanks for that!

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Hon, you don’t seem to understand.

We have tried to make it clear.

If you know that killing a man is a grave sin, but you do it anyway because you want something he has and that’s how you get it. . .you have commited a mortal sin. . .because the 3 conditions are met: Full knowledge (you know this is a grave or mortal sin). Grave sin (murder is grave sin), and full consent of the will (you do it anyway because you put what YOU want over the life of a human being.

So it’s the same thing with any mortal sin.

Full knowledge (you KNOW the Church is the one True Church. You know that you SHOULD belong to and obey that Church because it IS the one true Church. You are a baptized Catholic over the age of reason, and you reject the Church).
Grave matter (rejection of Truth is tantamount to rejection of God. It is wilful disobedience of God to reject ANY truth, and it is grave matter to reject the Church which He himself established and which you had been a member of, when you KNOW and accept it IS true but still refuse to obey because you 'like another service better.")

Full consent of the will. (You are not confused, you are not coerced, you do not think "this other church is really the true one, the Catholic Church isn’t.)

And UNREPENTED at death.

Now from what you say of your ex’s mother, we have absolutely no knowledge whether she thought the Catholic Church was true and rejected it, or whether she thought the Catholic Church was ‘wrong’ and went to a Church she thought was the ‘true one’ instead.

We have no knowledge as to whether she might have felt coerced into joining, or whether something had confused her or misled her.

We have no knowledge as to whether she repented at death or not.

So when we say, “A person who knows the Church is true, rejects it for another which he does not think is true, and does not repent at death will have chosen hell”. . .

We aren’t saying, “any person who was Catholic and left the church will burn in hell.” There are a LOT of conditions which have to be met and held AT THE TIME OF DEATH. God is very merciful.

We are simply saying what WOULD happen if ALL the conditions were met.

But as to your ex’s mother, we have no way of knowing if any of the conditions were met, so we absolutely do not know her state. It is entirely possible that even though she ‘was’ Catholic and ‘changed’ to another religion that she did not do so with full knowledge, did not realize it was grave matter, did not give a full informed consent, or did not remain ‘obstinant’ until death. . .in any of which cases she could wind up not guilty of mortal sin or having repented and been forgiven.

If this is the case, a lot of good people out there have “chosen hell”

I know people are leaving every day because of the abuse scandal. I was one of those that thought about it, but I wasn’t going to let that drive me away completely.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If this is the case, a lot of good people out there have “chosen hell”

I know people are leaving every day because of the abuse scandal. I was one of those that thought about it, but I wasn’t going to let that drive me away completely.

Well of course not. I mean, if we were looking for a church whose members were all perfect, we’d be lost. No such church.

As for the choosing hell (which God forbid for any of us). . .well, Scripture bears out (I believe in Ezekiel) that if a righteous man (so far) decides to sin mortally, he shall die. . .and if a sinner turns from his sin and chooses righteousness, he shall live.

In fact God goes on to chastize those who complain that it isn’t FAIR for God to allow a person who once sinned to ‘live’ if that sinner chooses to repent and do good at the end, and that it isn’t ‘fair’ that somebody who ‘did a bunch of good deeds’ earlier in life but chose, at the end, to deny those good things and choose evil, would be punished for the evil and not rewarded for the good. But God says that His way is righteous, and I believe Him.

One good deed doesn’t ‘earn’ points for heaven, so many points guaranteeing entrance. Good deeds do not ‘balance out’ bad ones. It is one’s state of mind at death (and we should all be praying daily to St. Joseph, patron saint of a happy death, for his intercession) which counts. Now all things being equal, if you’ve been a good person doing good for love of God (and not just because you get ego-boo from being thought ‘such a good person’) you are more LIKELY to be inclined to be thinking about and loving God and to make the choice for heaven at death. . . but you aren’t '100% guaranteed that you won’t ‘fall’ and choose hell. Likewise, even the most hellacious sinner might be touched by the prayer of the person he is about to kill, and at the very last minute of life repent his evil deeds and choose heaven instead of hell.

It’s all in the way you look at things. If you concentrate on God’s mercy, you’ll think, “How wonderful is His grace. . .even the most hardened sinner has the opportunity to repent and to choose heaven!” Because really that is the most wonderful gift God has given us. . .grace for salvation IF WE SO CHOOSE.

 

[dzheremi]

If Protestants can’t go to heaven then I don’t want to, either. My mother was a Protestant and a heck of a lot better Christian than I am. I sprain my ankle and struggle to pray for even 15 minutes a day as a result, she is diagnosed with terminal cancer but never misses a prayer along the way, even when she was too sick to physically move. I have to believe that’s worth something to God, something a lot more than a church affiliation that many of us don’t even earn.

 

[inkaneer]

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! PURGATORY IS NOT A PLACE !!! Please people get it right. Purgatory is a spiritual cleansing process where we are purged [thus the name] of the effects of sin. It is known as deification or Final Theosis in the EOC. Being a spiritual action it does not require a “place” as we like to think with our physical being.

 

[inkaneer]

Well several others on this forum claim that if you are catholic and then reject the ONE TRUE CHURCH you are being disobedient and that alone will put you in mortal sin.

I wonder if there is any scripture that refers to this statement so to back it up?

That is an oversimplification of the doctrine Extra Ecclesia Nolo Salus. You got to be very careful with oversimplifications as sometimes they throw the baby out with the bath water as your example is a prime example.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! PURGATORY IS NOT A PLACE !!! Please people get it right. Purgatory is a spiritual cleansing process where we are purged [thus the name] of the effects of sin. It is known as deification or Final Theosis in the EOC. Being a spiritual action it does not require a “place” as we like to think with our physical being.

I was taught that it was a place you go before heaven for cleansing. If you make it to purgatory – you know you are not going to hell. This is what a priest from Italy told me many years ago. He was my favorite. I learned a lot from him.

 

[moondweller]

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! PURGATORY IS NOT A PLACE !!! Please people get it right.

My friend, if you’re there, and you’re not here, then it’s a place. You cannot be in some place that’s not a place. Unless your argument is that it’s merely a state of mind, but still, YOU, yourself must be some place in that state of mind. You’re not here so YOU must be some place.

Being a spiritual action it does not require a “place” as we like to think with our physical being.

But if it’s not here, then it has to be some place where those things take place.

I don’t believe in it anyway, but to say it’s not a place is illogical.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen, brother Jeremy. Most of my Protestant friends and coworkers are more faithful, holy, caring, prayerful, and better than I am.

If Protestants can’t go to heaven then I don’t want to, either. My mother was a Protestant and a heck of a lot better Christian than I am. I sprain my ankle and struggle to pray for even 15 minutes a day as a result, she is diagnosed with terminal cancer but never misses a prayer along the way, even when she was too sick to physically move. I have to believe that’s worth something to God, something a lot more than a church affiliation that many of us don’t even earn.

 

[benidict]

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! PURGATORY IS NOT A PLACE !!! Please people get it right. Purgatory is a spiritual cleansing process where we are purged [thus the name] of the effects of sin. It is known as deification or Final Theosis in the EOC. Being a spiritual action it does not require a “place” as we like to think with our physical being.

Interesting view. Please tell me more on your view of this. you can p.m. me if you like. Do you believe the final purging happens at death, and is somewhat instant? or does the final purging take some time. Your thoughts are welcome. And I do believe in Purgtatory. I believe its going to be necessary. At least for me…