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TC3033
Guest
Yep, this is pretty much it in a nutshell.
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USMC_Convert
Guest
There is a specific phrase for that and I’ve been trying to think of it for days and cannot for the life of me remember it. But it basically means if there is no doubt in the heart of the person that Christianity is NOT where they are supposed to be. Of course only God can judge that so examples like Gandhi are irrelevant but there is an exception, I believe, that if the person really and totally doesn’t not believe then I think, I think! They are judged differently, or basically according to the truth which they know and understand.
HOWEVER, if they have even the slightest doubt and even a sliver of a thought that they should believe or look into or think about Jesus as their savior then that is a completely different story.
All are required to seek the truth.
My humble interpretation, I could absolutely be wrong.
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lanman87
Guest
The reason I asked this question is the answer there seems to be a dichotomy of Catholic belief about Protestant believers.
If we are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ that means we are indwelled with the same Holy Spirit, have been given the same gift of the Grace of God, and are adopted brothers and sisters into the family of God. Yet, we are not considered to be part of the church simply because we have have a different understanding of scripture and tradition than the church in Rome.
That begs the question, Is it an organization of the church who decides who is part of “the church” or is it the indwelling Holy Spirit and witness of those who profess faith in Christ?
If we are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ that means we are indwelled with the same Holy Spirit, have been given the same gift of the Grace of God, and are adopted brothers and sisters into the family of God. Yet, we are not considered to be part of the church simply because we have have a different understanding of scripture and tradition than the church in Rome.
That begs the question, Is it an organization of the church who decides who is part of “the church” or is it the indwelling Holy Spirit and witness of those who profess faith in Christ?
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Debbie_Kono
Guest
Here is a teaching on “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church”. It’s 30 mins long and I pray you’ll listen. It’s not a finger pointing, condemning teaching, but an explanation of WHY the Church teaches it.
I’m quite certain you will like it Ianman.
youtu.be/DEKRX14GfxI
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
**Ian,
Actually, that’s not what the Church teaches.
If you are a validly baptized believer then you are a part of the Church and body of Christ. You are just imperfectly joined to her…not in full Communion.**
Fighting heresy has been a Catholic specialty for 2,000 years. She wont stop that now just because the era is politically correct.
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lanman87
Guest
Thanks, I listened to about 20 minutes of it. To me, is just highlights the difference in what I was taught is “the church” and what the RCC teaches.
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lanman87
Guest
Well, to be fair, that is pretty much what every denomination says. To the other denominations they say, “we are Christians and so are you, but we have a better understanding about how to live the Christian life than you do.” They don’t deny the authenticity of each others Christianity and faith, they just have disagreements on how to best express the Christian faith and may disagree on how God works everything out, but they don’t deny that it* is* God who works everything out.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Yes, I’d say with Catholic Christianity we have the understanding that Jesus can not be separated from the Church. In ACTS 9:4 Jesus speaks with Paul/Saul who had not met him, yet he says why do you persecute me? Of course he had been persecuting the Church.
So when the Church officially speaks it is always inspired by the Holy Spirit.
As a protestant I would have called that both baloney and cultish. And it would be if we are talking about modern day restoration movements with no pedigree. But when you have ancient Churches such as the RCC and EO that trace their roots back to the apostles, it’s bold claims should be investigated by any well intended Christian, imo.
God bless
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lanman87
Guest
As a Baptist I would also say that Christ can’t be separated from His church. But I would say His Church is not an organization but is made up of all people who place their faith in Christ. And He can’t be separated from the church(His People) because He lives in us by the power of the Holy Spirit and He promises that He will never leave or forsake us.
I would further say that to be a member of a organized religious body that expression Christian beliefs does not necessarily make someone a member of “the church”. Being a Southern Baptist, or Methodist or even a Roman Catholic, IMHO, doesn’t make someone a member of “the church”. The organization isn’t the body of Christ, it is the people who have faith in Christ that make up the body of Christ. And those people of faith are found in various organizations.
I find these difference on how we define “the church” to be a major difference between how Protestants view Christianity and how Roman Catholics view Christianity.
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steve_b
Guest
To be fair, Isn’t that because of how many varieties of Protestants there are and their beliefs?
"Ianman:
It’s more than that. MUCH MORE than that. But you know that already
and tradition?
Historically speaking
Protestant tradition = https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-great-heresies
Ianman:
The Church of Rome = the see of Peter.
Ianman:
What does scripture say is the “pillar and foundation of truth”? The Church 1 Timothy 3:15
When a disagreement occurs, who is one to put the highest decision maker on? The Church . Matthew 18:17
we know what Church is being spoken of. It’s the Catholic Church
Isn’t it interesting the Catholic Church appears by name, in writing from the beginning. #27
**As one can see, division(s) occurred, or Paul wouldn’t need to make the warnings he made. The warnings and condemnations have no expiration date to them. **
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Peter_J
Guest
I think I can understand why you’d see that as an “if”, if you’ve spent a good amount of time on CAF. But to be fair, if you spent time on a Protestant forum like Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (CARM) I would bet that you’d come away just as confused as to whether Protestants regard Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ.
As I told someone else, I’m pretty convinced that if I left CAF in search of a better forum I wouldn’t find one.
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lanman87
Guest
Church means assembly or “those called out”.
1 Timothy 3:15. “if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church (assembly/called out) of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.”
The church (those called out) of the Living God is the household of God. It is made of all belong to Christ by faith.
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If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church(the assembly/called out). And if he refuses to listen even to the church (assembly/called out), let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you (the assembly/called out) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you (the assembly/called out) loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered (assembled) in my name, there am I among them.” Matt 18:17-20 ESV
This is saying that the local assembly has the authority to discipline it’s members.
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lanman87
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There is know doubt that some Protestants don’t consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ and some Catholics that don’t consider Protestants brothers and sisters in Christ. But I think that view, thankfully, is a minority view.
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steve_b
Guest
and whose going to determine THAT group???
Ianman:
Who is Jesus talking to here? One of those He is talking to is Peter, the one who 2 chapters earlier He said He would build His Church on. The One He will give the keys to the kingdom to. The one who He said could by himself, bind and loose on earth as it would be in heaven.
The Church Jesus is talking about is THIS Church. It has a leader appointed by Jesus. Peter, and the apostles that know Jesus has made Peter the leader of the Church.
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MichaelP3
Guest
Yea I tried some of those. They all just ended up agreeing with me and it became boring!
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Clevus
Guest
The difference is that the Catholic is a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ invites these to become one with Him, one body, a spiritual society. In order to be a member he needs to accept all the graces that Christ makes available to perform his work. Baptism in the proper Church is the first expression of obedience of Faith. If the parts are to achieve a common end, then they would require no self imposed hindrances to their function.
From New Advent(Church)
"That analogy(Body of Christ, the Spouse of Christ, the Temple of God) expresses indeed the variety of function, the unity of directive principle, and the cooperation of the parts to a common end, which are found in a society; but it is insufficient to explain the terms in which St. Paul speaks of the union between Christ and His disciples. Each of them is a member of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15); together they form the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:16); as a corporate unity they are simply termed Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12).
The intimacy of union here suggested is, however, justified, if we recall that the gifts and graces bestowed upon each disciple are graces merited by the Passion of Christ, and are destined to produce in him the likeness of Christ. The connection between Christ and himself is thus very different from the purely juridical relation binding the ruler of a natural society to the individuals belonging to it. The Apostle develops the relation between Christ and His members from various points of view. As a human body is organized, each joint and muscle having its own function, yet each contributing to the union of the complex whole, so too the Christian society is a body “compacted and firmly joined together by that which every part supplieth” (Ephesians 4:16), while all the parts depend on Christ their head. It is He Who has organized the body, assigning to each member his place in the Church, endowing each with the special graces necessary, and, above all, conferring on some of the members the graces in virtue of which they rule and guide the Church in His name (4:11). Strengthened by these graces, the mystical body, like a physical body, grows and increases. This growth is twofold. It takes place in the individual, inasmuch as each Christian gradually grows into the “perfect man”, into the image of Christ (Ephesians 4:13, 15; Romans 8:29). But there is also a growth in the whole body. As time goes on, the Church is to increase and multiply till it fills the earth. So intimate is the union between Christ and His members, that the Apostle speaks of the Church as the “fullness” (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23; 4:13), as though apart from His members something were lacking to the head. He even speaks of it as Christ: “As all the members of the body whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ” (1 Corinthians 12:12). And to establish the reality of this union he refers it to the efficacious instrumentality of the Holy Eucharist: “We being many, are one bread, one body: for we all partake of that one bread” (1 Corinthians 10:17 — Greek text)".
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Lenten_ashes
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Yeah, it’s a huge gulf between us for sure. And I can see how the claims of the CC can sound mighty divisive to non Catholics.
But I think about the history of the Church.
How the ‘organization’ sifted through the nearly 300 books vying for canonical status and told us which 27 were inspired and what order they went into in the NT. Then later provided nice chapter divisions, etc.
How monks took orders from those within the organization and dedicated their entire lives to sitting in monasteries and copying the scriptures word for word so that it may be preserved for the world.
How the organization spoke authoritatively and rooted out many heresies like Arianism, for example, that nearly ripped the Church apart.
All the blood of the martyrs in the organization. People dying to further the gospel.
And I see the necessity of the organization. Especially if there is to be a pillar of truth for the Church out there(1 Tim 3:15). Someone needs to be the bearer of absolute truth since 10 people can pickup bibles and give us varying ideas about what is what in Christianity.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I would suggest reading the Vatican II Conciliar document, Unitatis Redintegratio, which re-oriented relations among the various bodies of Christians.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
And also Pope Saint John Paul II’s encyclical, Ut unum sint, wherein we read:.
*41. What has been said above about ecumenical dialogue since the end of the Council inspires us to give thanks to the Spirit of Truth promised by Christ the Lord to the Apostles and the Church (cf. Jn 14:26). It is the first time in history that efforts on behalf of Christian unity have taken on such great proportions and have become so extensive. This is truly an immense gift of God, one which deserves all our gratitude. From the fullness of Christ we receive “grace upon grace” (Jn 1:16). An appreciation of how much God has already given is the condition which disposes us to receive those gifts still indispensable for bringing to completion the ecumenical work of unity.
An overall view of the last thirty years enables us better to appreciate many of the fruits of this common conversion to the Gospel which the Spirit of God has brought about by means of the ecumenical movement.
- It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ. I have personally been able many times to observe this during the ecumenical celebrations which are an important part of my Apostolic Visits to various parts of the world, and also in the meetings and ecumenical celebrations which have taken place in Rome. The “universal brotherhood” of Christians has become a firm ecumenical conviction. Consigning to oblivion the excommunications of the past, Communities which were once rivals are now in many cases helping one another: places of worship are sometimes lent out; scholarships are offered for the training of ministers in the Communities most lacking in resources; approaches are made to civil authorities on behalf of other Christians who are unjustly persecuted; and the slander to which certain groups are subjected is shown to be unfounded.
It needs be reaffirmed in this regard that acknowledging our brotherhood is not the consequence of a large-hearted philanthropy or a vague family spirit. It is rooted in recognition of the oneness of Baptism and the subsequent duty to glorify God in his work. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism expresses the hope that Baptisms will be mutually and officially recognized. This is something much more than an act of ecumenical courtesy; it constitutes a basic ecclesiological statement.
It is fitting to recall that the fundamental role of Baptism in building up the Church has been clearly brought out thanks also to multilateral dialogues.*
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint.html
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Wesrock
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Well, the bishops and priests aren’t just an organization. It’s not the political/economic/what-have-you organization that is the Church. The men invested with sacramental authority to lead the Christian flock, this “Petrine” aspect, is an integral dimension of Christ’s Church, and a basis for Christian unity in the Church.
Catholics do also believe that it’s the total community of baptized believers that is the Church, not only the ministers. Each household should be a family church. Each individual Christian is part of what makes up the body of Christ.
Certainly there are differences, but I would not frame the Catholic idea of the Church in the way you have. It’s a bit of a caricature, though I mean no offense to you personally. I believe you’re speaking in good faith.
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lanman87
Guest
God determines who is part of THAT group. But he tells us many attributes that members of the group will posses. Love God and Love others, profess faith in Christ, Call on His name, seek to know Him and the power of His resurrection, help the widows and orphans, seek to worship in spirit and in truth, be baptized… However, we know that not all who seem to be members of the body actually are members of the body. Many who claim to follow Christ do not know Christ and at the judgement he will tell them to depart from Him.and whose going to determine THAT group???
Specifically Jesus is talking to the Disciples but by extension He was talking to all His followers (the church). Just as the Great Commission in Matthew 28:16-20 (and His teachings to the disciples in many other passages) was specifically directed at the disciples but by extension was directed at all His followers.
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