Are protestants brothers and sisters in Christ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lanman87
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, the Catholic church agrees with me that personal confession to a priest didn’t happen until the 7th Century. It even mentions the Irish part. 🙂

During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the ‘private’ practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1447).
That doesn’t change the fact that He gave His Apostles power to forgive sins.
 
That doesn’t change the fact that He gave His Apostles power to forgive sins.
He also gave His Apostles the power to heal the sick and drive out demons. However it seems the Apostles (Bishops) today have a very hard time doing these things?
 
If the scriptures stated a certain criteria then non Catholics wouldn’t have to rely on another authority outside the bible to tell them said criteria.
But that is part of my point. The Bible could have had lists and lists of criteria. If someone still didn’t have faith in that it would be meaningless to him/her. It’s fair enough to say the Church is giving that criteria, but you still need to have faith to “know” that.
 
He also gave His Apostles the power to heal the sick and drive out demons. However it seems the Apostles (Bishops) today have a very hard time doing these things?
We all need to allow the Lord to sanctify us. If I want to help change what is happening in the world I need to start with myself. Yes, there are many members of the Church who are not allowing the Lord to sanctify them. Yet, what our Lord Jesus Christ taught is the whole truth. I am thankful for those who follow Him every day and do so without being noticed. (In the Catholic Church and in denominations of it.)
.
I thank all the saints everywhere that have allowed, and are allowing the Lord to sanctify them, until it is no longer they that live but Christ who lives in them.

Peace!

Dorothy
 
That doesn’t change the fact that He gave His Apostles power to forgive sins.
No, but it changed the practice of the church. Being a middle class Roman Catholic in the 600’s was much different than being a middle class Roman Catholic today.
 
He also gave His Apostles the power to heal the sick and drive out demons. However it seems the Apostles (Bishops) today have a very hard time doing these things?
Only one Church I know of with a prescribed, tried and true method to cast out demons. And of course it’s the CC with the rite of Exorcism.

You ever watch these paranormal shows based off true stories? These people have real issues and usually cant get any protestant minister to take them seriously…or they show up to the house and act like they don’t know what to do. Then, last resort, contact the CC and get the process started.

Healings aren’t always God’s will. Look at Paul with his “affliction” If the guy who authored about half of the NT can’t get all he wants I guess I shouldn’t expect it either. 😉
 
He also gave His Apostles the power to heal the sick and drive out demons. However it seems the Apostles (Bishops) today have a very hard time doing these things?
I’m confused by this brother, what’s the basis here? Seems to me, that anointing and exorcisms are still practiced by the Catholic Church.
 
He also gave His Apostles the power to heal the sick and drive out demons. However it seems the Apostles (Bishops) today have a very hard time doing these things?
Actually the priests who are exorcists are quite busy these days. If you listen to traditional Catholic sermons/teachings they speak of it quite frequently. Also, when a Protestant gets desperate, they’ve been known to call on a Catholic priest for help of this nature.
 
I’m not talking about denominations. I’m talking about non-Catholics who have a genuine faith in Christ and seek to serve Him. Would you consider them brothers and sisters in Christ?
What do you mean by “Brother’s and Sister’s?” When I hear this, I think of the term “communion,” and if this is the case, I would say that the answer is probably “no,” much like many Protestants don’t consider themselves in communion with other’s. Which I believe has been previously spoken to in this thread.

I have found (to my own frustrations) that often my heavily Protestant influenced terminology is foreign and misunderstood by Catholics and Orthodox alike, they simply understand terms differently and will often answer in a way that is confusing to me. This is of course because they understand the terminology differently, as a result I have found that defining things or asking for definition helps a lot. So perhaps some clear definitions here would help facilitate the answer you’re looking for here.

To both the Protestants and Catholics here: What is your understanding of the phrase “Brothers and sisters in Christ?”
 
I’m confused by this brother, what’s the basis here? Seems to me, that anointing and exorcisms are still practiced by the Catholic Church.
Not sure what’s the confusion. By default every “Apostle” today has the power to forgive sins and with extension the priests. A person is absolved and its considered a done deal.

With exorcism its not so general and the exorcist is specifically trained no specific power he would have by merely being ordained.

With anointing again. Well not so sure it automatically heals the person by the mere fact that an ordained priest did it.
 
Well, the Catholic church agrees with me that personal confession to a priest didn’t happen until the 7th Century. It even mentions the Irish part. 🙂

"During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the ‘private’ practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1447).
You leave out the beginning of the paragraph. The Church has always had priests and bishops, and it has always had oral confession and reconciliation. Who is that oral confession to? To Each other? NO. I can’t forgive you your sins nor can you of my sins. Confession is to a priest or bishop who CAN forgive sins… As the CCC says, The concrete form for confession has changed over the years, but the form has always been oral confession, and to a priest or bishop, whether confession is public in the beginning, or later when it was private.

**

1447 **Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this “order of penitents” (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the “private” practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day.

in extension

1448 Beneath the changes in discipline and celebration that this sacrament has undergone over the centuries, the same fundamental structure is to be discerned. It comprises two equally essential elements: on the one hand, the acts of the man who undergoes conversion through the action of the Holy Spirit: namely, contrition, confession, and satisfaction; on the other, God’s action through the intervention of the Church. The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ and determines the manner of satisfaction, also prays for the sinner and does penance with him. Thus the sinner is healed and re-established in ecclesial communion.
 
Not sure what’s the confusion. By default every “Apostle” today has the power to forgive sins and with extension the priests. A person is absolved and its considered a done deal.

With exorcism its not so general and the exorcist is specifically trained no specific power he would have by merely being ordained.

With anointing again. Well not so sure it automatically heals the person by the mere fact that an ordained priest did it.
My understanding (and I don’t presume to speak on behalf of the Catholics here) is that they believe the successors to the Apostles are the Bishops - they hold the authority and gifts. The Presbyter is an agent of that Bishop and doesn’t hold the same authority or gifts, except those that a Bishop confers. Anointing and absolution have been conferred to Presbyter as part of his Ministerial duties on behalf of the Bishop, however, exorcism is considered to be outside of the “normal” ministerial duties.

I’m not sure that this separation or allocations of duties/responsibilities speaks to an inability, rather perhaps speaks to the desire to have the time of the Presbyters more focused according to what they have been tasked.

That’s my impression and that’s why the statement is confusing to me.
 
I’m confused by this brother, what’s the basis here? Seems to me, that anointing and exorcisms are still practiced by the Catholic Church.
It is also practiced in many Protestant churches including non-Charismatic churches. In particular on the mission field in countries that have a history of pagan/demonic activity.

Here is an article from Baptist preacher John Piper.

Even in the non-Pentecostal Southern Baptist churches we hear reports from missionaries where speaking in tongues, casting out demons and other charismatic gifts happen. Mainly in areas that have not heard the Gospel. These gifts, just as in the times of the Apostles are used to testify the truth of the Gospel. They are not a regular occurrence but I’ve heard first hand reports from missionaries on dealing with demonic forces in countries and regions where mysticism is deeply rooted in the culture.

Also here is a blog post by Pastor Dave Miller, who ironically is the one who wrote the “Brick Walls and Picket Fences” blog post.
 
You leave out the beginning of the paragraph. The Church has always had priests and bishops, and it has always had oral confession and reconciliation. Who is that oral confession to? To Each other? NO. I can’t forgive you your sins nor can you of my sins. Confession is to a priest or bishop who CAN forgive sins… As the CCC says, The concrete form for confession has changed over the years, but the form has always been oral confession, and to a priest or bishop, whether confession is public in the beginning, or later when it was private.

**

1447 **Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this “order of penitents” (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the “private” practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day.
I didn’t say that confession wasn’t practiced beforehand. I said priestly confession (by which I meant private confession, I guess I should have been more clear) started in the 7th century.
 
It is also practiced in many Protestant churches including non-Charismatic churches. In particular on the mission field in countries that have a history of pagan/demonic activity.

Here is an article from Baptist preacher John Piper.

Even in the non-Pentecostal Southern Baptist churches we hear reports from missionaries where speaking in tongues, casting out demons and other charismatic gifts happen. Mainly in areas that have not heard the Gospel. These gifts, just as in the times of the Apostles are used to testify the truth of the Gospel. They are not a regular occurrence but I’ve heard first hand reports from missionaries on dealing with demonic forces in countries and regions where mysticism is deeply rooted in the culture.

Also here is a blog post by Pastor Dave Miller, who ironically is the one who wrote the “Brick Walls and Picket Fences” blog post.
Think that perhaps it is better marketed by Protestants than it is by Catholics. Just because one doesn’t market it in the same manner or circles doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Then again, I’m one of “those” that don’t believe that every Pastor hitting people with their coat on TV is casting out demons or healing the sick. 🤷 I’m not saying that you are or advocating that is the case. I’m saying that I’m a little jaded when it comes to seeing these things. Back to the point though - Catholics still practice it. Simply because it is not advertised to non-Catholics (or maybe it is outside of my bubble) doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Thus the question of basis.

In other-words, what evidence do you have that they don’t practice it, or do so to no effect? Or am I misunderstanding you completely?
 
I didn’t say that confession wasn’t practiced beforehand. I said priestly confession (by which I meant private confession, I guess I should have been more clear) started in the 7th century.
You responded before I added paragraph 1448 to my post
#74

I wanted to add this to show, confession to a bishop or priest has always been there. Whether public confession in the beginning, or later it became private.
 
No, but it changed the practice of the church. Being a middle class Roman Catholic in the 600’s was much different than being a middle class Roman Catholic today.
Not making this a “class” thing,

Saints and doctors of the Church span the “class” issue, from the poorest of the poor to the wealthy.

One such screw up was Augustine. Yet he became saint and doctor of the Catholic Church
 
Actually the priests who are exorcists are quite busy these days. If you listen to traditional Catholic sermons/teachings they speak of it quite frequently. Also, when a Protestant gets desperate, they’ve been known to call on a Catholic priest for help of this nature.
Glad to see you’re loving RCIA 👍
 
Think that perhaps it is better marketed by Protestants than it is by Catholics. Just because one doesn’t market it in the same manner or circles doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Then again, I’m one of “those” that don’t believe that every Pastor hitting people with their coat on TV is casting out demons or healing the sick. 🤷 I’m not saying that you are or advocating that is the case. I’m saying that I’m a little jaded when it comes to seeing these things. Back to the point though - Catholics still practice it. Simply because it is not advertised to non-Catholics (or maybe it is outside of my bubble) doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Thus the question of basis.

In other-words, what evidence do you have that they don’t practice it, or do so to no effect? Or am I misunderstanding you completely?
No, I’m not saying that Catholics don’t practice exorcism. I’m saying that it isn’t exclusive to Catholicism.

I will say that in modern America there are many forgeries of Charismatic gifts. Mainly by TV preachers trying to get folks to send them money. However, that doesn’t preclude real instances of exorcism and manifestations of the other charismatic gifts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top