Are Protestants Excommunicate, Pagans, or Something Else?

[Presbyterian]

This is going to be confusing, and I ask because my wife-to-be is Catholic and we want to unify our religious beliefs for the sake of our children. As a Presbyterian, I want reunion with the Catholic Church already, I can clearly see the value in it. Our denomination still acknowledges the one holy and apostolic Church, and that’s where this gets tricky.

Apparently, according to her, only Martin Luther is excommunicate because he knew the teachings of the Church and rejected them. You can’t be excommunicated from the Church if you were never part of it, which in turn would mean that the Catholic Church never saw Protestants as part of the Church at all, which would make us pagans.

Only we’re apparently not pagans because the Catholic Church still considers us as Christians, and we can intermarry so long as we’re baptized, but Protestants cannot share Catholic Communion, which to me sounds a lot like being excommunicate. I’m like, 95% sure that the Catholic Church excommunicates us, by every meaningful definition of the word, but she says it isn’t so, and then can’t explain why baptism is honored but Communion isn’t. Her advice was that we need to talk to a priest, but since we can’t do that now, I’m asking all of you.

I know it is a complicated question, so any advice would be appreciated.

 

[HiImBrittom]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

I couldn’t take communion when I wasn’t baptized. My dad couldn’t take communion when he wasn’t in “good standing” with the Church. You’re just not in good standing with the Church.

 

[Presbyterian]

I believe He is an aspect of God, as per the Holy Trinity, and I don’t really see the value in questioning that much. Given all that I know of the universe, I’m pretty sure God can be whatever He wants to be, whenever He wants to be.

My perspective may be a bit difficult to understand without writing an extremely long and off-topic post, but I see this whole universe as clockwork worthy of something so awesome as a God, one that is pretty merciful to us in design and religious teachings He chooses to share with us. I don’t know if I’m right, I can’t know, but I swear that I live in fear and awe of whatever created a universe and a species that can black out the stars like we can. I don’t want to mess with whatever created that. All I know for certain is that God works, and that Faith in Him works.

 

[Vico]

… I’m like, 95% sure that the Catholic Church excommunicates us, by every meaningful definition of the word, but she says it isn’t so, and then can’t explain why baptism is honored but Communion isn’t. …

Those with valid baptism are Christians. The Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith. Many Christian ecclesial communities and sister churches are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, which exist as wounds to the unity of Christ’s Church. Validly receiving the Eucharist requires of the baptized, belief in the Real Presence in the same way as the Catholic belief, and being in a state of sanctifying grace.

In order for a Catholic to be married in the Catholic Church to a non Catholic, a Catholic must obtain permission and there are certain conditions before approval can be given.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.

 

[Presbyterian]

Not gonna lie, that sounds like Islam with extra steps. Essentially it’s just guaranteeing that any children will be born Catholic and adhere to the tenets of the Catholic Church, which is just an indirect way of forcing Catholicism. I don’t like that, and as Protestant, I will probably not obey. Indeed, I think this is exactly how you get so many rebellious Catholics.

Christianity works best when people accept Christ into their hearts. Only then do they really change for the better,so I don’t see the value in forcing them. Now, when they have a home to come back to, especially something with so much majesty as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then Catholicism works. But for some reason the One True Church keeps moving farther left, rather than reconciling with its own prodigal sons.

I know that’s not a clear question or answer you can respond to easily, it’s just one of my qualms about where Protestants stand, and I don’t even know the right questions to ask.

 

[po18guy]

If you are validly baptized (and as a Presbyterian, you certainly are!), you are technically already a member of the Catholic Church - just in an imperfect communion. When we receive Catholic communion, we say “Amen” (So be it). That indicates that we agree with all of the Apostolic teachings of the Church. - particularly the Holy Eucharist, which is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. He, of course, is the Source and Summit of our faith.

Would it surprise you to know that some Baptist communions are closed to other Baptists? True*

I married a Catholic woman as an unbaptized ‘more or less’ believer. She shepherded me into the faith and I will be eternally grateful for that. For the sake of love; for the sake of unity, delve into the history and beauty of the Catholic faith.

I had my doubts - for some years after. But all doubts were either intellectually or spiritually overcome. We celebrate 40 years this July.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? Absolutely excellent primer in the faith. Highly recommended.
https://www.amazon.com/Catholicism-Dummies-Rev-John-Trigilio/dp/1119295602

*Handbook of Christian Denominations.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Christianity works best when people accept Christ into their hearts.

We agree…but that doesn’t make it a bad idea to educate them in the faith. If they don’t know anything about Lord they can not accept him. Knowledge is very helpful. Not the most important, but helpful indeed.

But for some reason the One True Church keeps moving farther left, rather than reconciling with its own prodigal sons.

Our Lord also moved to the Cross indeed of chasing all who left him. I don’t exactly what you mean by “left” in this scenario so sorry if I misunderstood.

Church holds Luther to be excommunicated but current Protestants who were never Catholic are Christians who are either in heresy or schism- they are out of unity of the Church. They are misguided brothers and sisters who lack complete and full truth not entirely out of their fault. Difference between excommunication and not being in full unity is that Church generally does not view second as your fault and will and can actively try to bring you to her unity. With excommunication one must repent on his own and make penance for what made him excommunicated.

Essentially it’s just guaranteeing that any children will be born Catholic and adhere to the tenets of the Catholic Church, which is just an indirect way of forcing Catholicism.

Catholics believe that Catholic Church is true Church of Christ that holds Truth, is guided by Holy Spirit to not fail and is our Ark of Salvation. Therefore making your kids Catholic makes sense for us- we love our kids and we want their salvation and we want to teach them Truth. We do not want them to live in half-truth or lies, but in Truth.

I don’t like that, and as Protestant, I will probably not obey.

Then do not get married in Catholic Church or to professing Catholic. We value God as first before everything when we make choices and hence we will not leave His Church or disobey His Spirit for some earthly thing or some human person… nor should we.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m like, 95% sure that the Catholic Church excommunicates us, by every meaningful definition of the word, but she says it isn’t so,

Excommunication is what happens when a Catholic loses the right to receive Communion. The Church can only take that right away from someone who once had it. As a Presbyterian, you never had that right, so it would make no sense to say you had it taken away from you. That’s why the term “excommunication” doesn’t apply in your case. I hope that’s clear.

 

[Vico]

Not gonna lie, that sounds like Islam with extra steps. Essentially it’s just guaranteeing that any children will be born Catholic and adhere to the tenets of the Catholic Church, which is just an indirect way of forcing Catholicism. I don’t like that, and as Protestant, I will probably not obey. Indeed, I think this is exactly how you get so many rebellious Catholics.

Christianity works best when people accept Christ into their hearts. Only then do they really change for the better,so I don’t see the value in forcing them. Now, when they have a home to come back to, especially something with so much majesty as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, then Catholicism works. But for some reason the One True Church keeps moving farther left, rather than reconciling with its own prodigal sons.

I know that’s not a clear question or answer you can respond to easily, it’s just one of my qualms about where Protestants stand, and I don’t even know the right questions to ask.

The emphasis is on the action of the Holy Spirit given in baptism to the infant – and in the eastern Catholic Churches also Chrismation and Eucharist – in protecting the soul of the infant person that is baptised. Infant baptism requires a post-baptismal catechesis. At the time of the development of the use of reason (approximately age 7) the person must decide upon cooperation with the Holy Spirit to remain free from mortal sins. The guiding parent will work to educate the child in the faith, that is, to the catechumenate.

Catechism

1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate . Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.

1248 The catechumenate, or formation of catechumens, aims at bringing their conversion and faith to maturity, in response to the divine initiative and in union with an ecclesial community. The catechumenate is to be "a formation in the whole Christian life . . . during which the disciples will be joined to Christ their teacher. The catechumens should be properly initiated into the mystery of salvation and the practice of the evangelical virtues, and they should be introduced into the life of faith, liturgy, and charity of the People of God by successive sacred rites."47

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My husband of 23 years (with a total 33-year relationship) was a Presbyterian, so were his parents.

First of all, let’s correct your understanding of what “Excommunicate” means. It refers to being in communion with the Catholic Church, NOT “receiving Holy Communion” which is more properly called “Holy Eucharist” to avoid this sort of confusion. During any given week there are millions of Catholics who are not allowed to receive Holy Communion but are not “excommunicated” from the Church. Excommunication is a formal penalty that the Church gives to its members (not those like yourself who have never been members) in hopes that said members will reform their ways and return to the Church.

Presbyterians aren’t Catholics. They’re Christians who aren’t part of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church generally accepts Presbyterian baptism as being Trinitarian, which means we have that in common and if the Presbyterian converted to Catholic Church, s/he would not need to be re-baptized; it also means that the marriage between the baptized Presbyterian and a Catholci is sacramental, so if Presbyterian marries a Catholic (As my husband did), then he’s in communion with the Catholic Church through two sacraments (baptism and matrimony).

They aren’t pagans. “Pagan” is generally a term for one who does not accept Jesus Christ as God and Savior. Presbyterians accept Jesus in this way and they believe in the Holy Trinity to boot.

Presbyterians who did not start off as Catholics and jump ship for the Presbyterian church aren’t “excommunicated”. As a practical matter, they were never members of the Catholic Church to begin with, so it’s kind of hard to “excommunicate” somebody from a Church they never joined. Also, if you are raised Presbyterian and taught Presbyterianism by your Presbyterian parents and you truly believe it’s the right way to follow Jesus and you do so with a good heart, then it’s even questionable whether you’re committing any sin in being a Presbyterian. The excommunication, if any, would come in for a Catholic who actually joined the Catholic Church and/or was raised in it and then decided to quit the Church and go join the Presbyterians instead.

(continued next post due to length limit)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Now, based on your post alone, I don’t know if “unifying your religious beliefs for the sake of your children” Is really going to work here unless you’re planning to just convert to Catholicism, which doesn’t sound like it’s the case. If you’re a Presbyterian and you want to stay a Presbyterian, then you and your wife have to accept that and she needs to do her best to raise the kids Catholic. You don’t have to make any promise to help raise the kids Catholic, but you need to be aware she is making this promise and be okay with her making this promise.

There is probably some risk that you two will bicker over religion and/or bicker over what religion to raise the kids in. This was not a problem for my husband and I because he didn’t bug me about my religion for various reasons (He had a Catholic grandpa and a Catholic uncle and aunt and was used to having Catholics around, it was no big deal, plus he was mostly non-practicing although he still believed all the Presbyterian beliefs and did not want to convert, nor was he the type to care that the Catholics wouldn’t let him receive Communion when he went to Mass with me, he was fine just sitting in the pew), plus we were not the type to argue over religion or much of anything else, we just wanted to be together.

Have you and your wife discussed your questions with her priest at the pre-marriage conferences? I think such a discussion might be helpful to you, maybe more so than posting here.
Good luck.

Also, I must say:

Not gonna lie, that sounds like Islam with extra steps. Essentially it’s just guaranteeing that any children will be born Catholic and adhere to the tenets of the Catholic Church, which is just an indirect way of forcing Catholicism. I don’t like that, and as Protestant, I will probably not obey. Indeed, I think this is exactly how you get so many rebellious Catholics.

This is alarming and I really think you need to talk to a priest. Even though I wasn’t exactly a holy practicing Catholic during much of my relationship and marriage, if my husband ever popped off with some statement like this, we likely wouldn’t have even gotten to the point of getting engaged, much less married. You’re not only saying you don’t like something, you’re making a judgment on your wife’s entire Church. It’s disrespectful.

 

[Salibi]

Pagan” is generally a term for one who does not accept Jesus Christ as God and Savior.

I would venture that “pagan” is someone who isn’t a monotheist, not someone who isn’t Christian. Jews, Muslims, and other monotheists aren’t Christian, but they aren’t pagan either.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

That’s a good point about Jewish people not being pagan.
I know in the past the Muslims have been thought to be “pagan” but probably not today.
I looked up the definition of “Pagan” and the dictionary is currently defining it as someone who doesn’t practice one of the major world religions, which seemed odd.

Not sure if the monotheistic distinction always holds up; if some faith was worshipping one God, but the one God was Baal, or the Moon, then they’d be considered “pagan”. The main reason we don’t currently think of Jewish and Muslim people as pagan is that the Catholic Church currently holds their worship of the God of Abraham as being in communion with the Church per the Catechism.

But in any event, Protestants aren’t pagans.

 

[Salibi]

Not sure if the monotheistic distinction always holds up; if some faith was worshipping one God, but the one God was Baal, or the Moon, then they’d be considered “pagan”. The main reason we don’t currently think of Jewish and Muslim people as pagan is that the Catholic Church currently holds their worship of the God of Abraham as being in communion with the Church per the Catechism

I agree…I should have said Abrahamic, not monotheistic. Although I’m not sure a Hindu or Buddhist wouldn’t be offended or reject the classification of “pagan”, as it’s often used derogatorily.

 

[Wannano]

This is going to be confusing, and I ask because my wife-to-be is Catholic and we want to unify our religious beliefs for the sake of our children. As a Presbyterian, I want reunion with the Catholic Church already, I can clearly see the value in it. Our denomination still acknowledges the one holy and apostolic Church, and that’s where this gets tricky.

Apparently, according to her, only Martin Luther is excommunicate because he knew the teachings of the Church and rejected them. You can’t be excommunicated from the Church if you were never part of it, which in turn would mean that the Catholic Church never saw Protestants as part of the Church at all, which would make us pagans.

Only we’re apparently not pagans because the Catholic Church still considers us as Christians, and we can intermarry so long as we’re baptized, but Protestants cannot share Catholic Communion, which to me sounds a lot like being excommunicate. I’m like, 95% sure that the Catholic Church excommunicates us, by every meaningful definition of the word, but she says it isn’t so, and then can’t explain why baptism is honored but Communion isn’t. Her advice was that we need to talk to a priest, but since we can’t do that now, I’m asking all of you.

I know it is a complicated question, so any advice would be appreciated.

I am very appreciative that you have asked your questions on this thread for I also have been looking for the correct answer to the same questions.

@po18guy states that if one is validly baptized as a non-Catholic that one is “technically already a member of the Catholic Church - just in imperfect communion.” My understanding is that the imperfect communion does not allow a non-Catholic to partake of the Eucharist because of differing beliefs about Communion or Eucharist .

So @BartholomewB is right in stating that "excommunication " does not apply to you or me as non-Catholics, for we have never been Catholics in full communion with the Catholic Church, even though we are Christians. HOWEVER, clarification is needed here. @BartholomewB states "Excommunication is what happens when a Catholic loses the right to receive Communion. " @Tis_Bearself states "during any given week there are millions of Catholics who are not allowed to receive Holy Communion but are not ""excommunicated “” from the Church.

This is confusing to me, so if anybody wants to clarify it would be great.

Thanks.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

@BartholomewB states "Excommunication is what happens when a Catholic loses the right to receive Communion. " @Tis_Bearself states "during any given week there are millions of Catholics who are not allowed to receive Holy Communion but are not ""excommunicated “” from the Church.

Here is a succinct explanation. “Excommunication” goes way beyond just not being able to receive the Holy Eucharist.

What is excommunication? - Catholic Straight Answers

On the Holy Communion point:
Let’s say public Masses and Eucharist were available right now (as they usually are) and I went out and committed a grave, likely mortal, sin last night, like I picked up a guy at a bar and had relations with him outside of marriage. Today, Sunday Morning, I then could not receive Holy Communion as I am probably not in a state of grace. (We see this on the forum all the time with people posting all these “did I commit mortal sin, can I go to communion when I attend Mass with my parents today” type questions.)

But the Church isn’t going to excommunicate me for committing that sin. I can repent, go to confession, and I’m back in a state of grace, I can receive communion and all is well. If I actually was formally excommunicated for something, it might take more than just a simple confession to my priest to get me back in good standing, depending on the circumstances.

Excommunication is usually done when someone behaves in a way that creates a major public scandal. Like, a priest disobeys his bishop when the bishop tells him to do something or to stop doing something. Or a bunch of laypeople joined some organization that the bishop had forbidden them to join, and they were going around publicly as members of the organization. It’s fairly rare for someone to get excommunicated, and it is a penalty intended to get them to wake up, quit what they’re doing and get back where they belong, into the Church. Someone like Martin Luther who started out as a Catholic, then took a bunch of Catholics and formed his own church because he disagreed with his superiors, is the type of person who’d be excommunicated, even today (and priests do get excommunicated for that today).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Although I’m not sure a Hindu or Buddhist wouldn’t be offended or reject the classification of “pagan”, as it’s often used derogatorily.

Oh, I’m sure they’d be offended and I would not call them that. Just like how we don’t call Protestants “heretics” any more for the same reason.

The people who practice Wicca or similar witchcraft/ earth religions usually are the ones going around happily announcing they are pagan, especially when someone wishes them “Merry Christmas”.

 

[Wannano]

It is kind of a mind twister but in essence both of you are right. I like the thought in the second sentence in your quoted article that conveys that " communication" is granted. For me it gives “excommunication” a new premise. Thanks.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I see a huge amount of misuse of the words “Not in communion with the Church” and for that reason I personally am trying to refer to the Sacrament in which we physically receive Jesus as “Holy Eucharist” rather than “Holy Communion”.

It is also popular for certain Catholics to decide that certain other Catholics are “Not in communion with the Church” if the other Catholics express some doubt or some disagreement with a Church teaching that we are bound to accept, It is true that if you are Catholic but are disagreeing with important teachings of the Church, it is not a small matter and you should probably check yourself, open your mind to the Church position and study the matter more, talk to a priest, accept the Church position and pray for the Lord to help your unbelief etc, and furthermore you should be careful about making big public statements about your disbelief because you could lead others astray. However, the Church doesn’t excommunicate people for having doubts. If that were the case, Mother Teresa would have been excommunicated. The whole “not in communion with the Church” label is therefore not one that random Catholics on the Internet should choose to slap on each other because the other person thinks Fr. Martin (Who has not been excommunicated) is an okay guy or whatever.

 

[Presbyterian]

I didn’t mean any disrespect, Tis_Bearself, and I am sorry. These are just things I think about, and if I can’t share them with the Church, can I ever be part of it? I don’t sincerely mean that the Catholic Church is like Islam. I have fought Islam, and Catholicism is so much better than that.

When it comes to raising our children, though, I guess I’m as confused as any other new parent. I really do want to convert, I just have to get over these issues somehow. I’m not sure how to do it, but all the perspectives from everyone help.

Please just be patient with me. I don’t want to nail 95 theses to your door, and so far I think I’ve cut it down to about 80, so that’s progress, right?