Are Protestants part of other Religions?

[JonNC]

First, I am just a regular church go-er, trying to educate myself, and continue to “faith build”. I do not have an advanced degree, nor have I been able to devote a lot of time to theological study, though I do look forward to one day. That said, I can (as of now) just give answers on what I have seen and experienced first hand.

**It is not quite that easy or common to just float between denominations. The theology between various denominations is not so similar that our churches are interchangeable; **that is offensive to say, though I’m not sure it was meant to be. I hope it was not. That said, you are correct that it would not be seen as changing religions. Someone who would leave the Methodist church to become Presbyterian (or vice versa) would still be Christian. That is the most important thing.

I strongly agree with the bolded. Particularly for Lutherans (at least well-catechized Lutherans), simply hopping to another communion is difficult. We have little in common with many to most other protestant communions regarding, centrally, the sacraments.

This Lutheran, however, would be more likely to become Catholic or Orthodox than any other kind of protestant, with the possible exception of Anglo-Catholic.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I’ve noticed some people seem to be conceptualizing “Catholicism” as a species of the larger genus “Christianity” which misleadingly leads to the idea the **Catholicism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, etc are all equally valid “types” of “Christians.” **This is neither true, nor representative of what the Church teaches (see the paragraphs from LG that I posted above). Perhaps the great Hilaire Belloc can provide the antidote to such relativistic thinking (from “The Great Heresies”) emphases mine:

“There is no such thing as a religion called “Christianity” there never has been such a religion.
There is and always has been the Church, and various heresies proceeding from a rejection of some of the Church’s doctrines by men who still desire to retain the rest of her teaching and morals. But there never has been and **never can be **or will be a general Christian religion professed by men who all accept some central important doctrines, while agreeing to differ about others. There has always been, from the beginning, and will always be, the Church, and sundry heresies either doomed to decay, or, like Mohammedanism, to grow into a separate religion. Of a common Christianity there has never been and never can be a definition, for it has never existed.”

Based on your leaving out of the abbreviated list Orthodoxy, one might think that is the one true Church, and that the Catholic Church is among those " sundry heresies ".

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Based on your leaving out of the abbreviated list Orthodoxy, one might think that is the one true Church, and that the Catholic Church is among those " sundry heresies ".

Jon

Good point … although I note that it only applies to the part written by PietroPaolo, not the part written by Belloc.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Based on your leaving out of the abbreviated list Orthodoxy, one might think that is the one true Church, and that the Catholic Church is among those " sundry heresies ".

Jon

There are over 30,000 non-Catholic Christian groups, including several Eastern Orthodox Churches, it is unreasonable to expect me to list them all or to conclude anything from any particular one missing from a list which contains “etc”. The simple fact that “Orthodoxy” isn’t “one church” would make it apparent that it can’t be the “one true Church”. If you want more context for the Belloc quote, I highly recommend reading The Great Heresies - you can purchase it from Amazon for $7.00 HERE. God bless.

 

[LoveGod102]

Protestants are Christians, but are not Catholics. Christianity is comprised, sadly, of many
different divisions, each one claiming to be the true one. Some Christians don’t even care a-
bout the schisms, “EVERYONE’S OKAY!” Oy Vey. I’m not saying that Protestants are not
Christians like Catholics are, but only the Roman Catholic Church is the correct Church.

Now as for the “validity of other religions” which you speak, I believe that it is of Catholic
opinion that God saves who he wills, even if some people are found in strange places. It
is indeed a mystery, all we can do is understand the GENERAL rules, but God of course
is above these rules, but we can’t say how in SURETY. Some Jews could be saved, even
som Muslims could be saved, and of course some Protestants as well, BUT WE DON’T
KNOW FOR CERTAIN.

I’m afraid I can’t offer citations, only what I’ve heard,
perhaps someone here can cite for or correct me if
I am wrong anywhere.

You make it sound as if God predestines people to be saved. That is not the case. Anyone who is baptized and dies in a state of grace (meaning that they either have not fully rejected God by sinning mortally, or if they have, they have repented before death, even at the last moment of life). For the unbaptized, we don’t know for sure whether they get to heaven, but we are simply to entrust them to God’s mercy. We know that God does not send anyone to hell, so for those who are unbaptized and have not completely rejected God or have repented of doing so, there is a possibility that they go somewhere else, commonly referred to as limbo. (Not as in a stuck-between place, but as in a happy place that is not heaven) However, I personally believe that these people are probably allowed in heaven. I don’t see God not letting someone in heaven because by no fault of their own, they were not baptized.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

This question comes up from the name of this part of the forum, “Non-Catholic Religions”. I am curious, do Catholics think that Protestants are part of a different religion from Catholics? If so, what makes them part of a different religion?

Finally, what does the Catholic Church teach about the validity of other religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and possibility of salvation for those not of the Catholic religion?

Citations of respected Catholic teaching supporting your answers would be great, but I’m interested in what you think, whether or not you have the citations.

Thank you for your help with these questions.

What religion are we a part of if not Christianity?

 

[andrewstx]

First, I am just a regular church go-er, trying to educate myself, and continue to “faith build”. I do not have an advanced degree, nor have I been able to devote a lot of time to theological study, though I do look forward to one day. That said, I can (as of now) just give answers on what I have seen and experienced first hand.

It is not quite that easy or common to just float between denominations. The theology between various denominations is not so similar that our churches are interchangeable; that is offensive to say, though I’m not sure it was meant to be. I hope it was not. That said, you are correct that it would not be seen as changing religions. Someone who would leave the Methodist church to become Presbyterian (or vice versa) would still be Christian. That is the most important thing.

I meant no offense at all. Let me tell you my personal story, if I may. Before my conversion to Catholicism and then Orthodoxy I had been raised and baptized in the radical fundamentalist sect that calls itself THE church of Christ. In that sect where they call all others ‘non Christian’ you have to be baptized as an adult by submersion in their church by one of their preachers. It did not matter if you had already been baptized as an adult by submersion in another denomination you had to be re-baptized by them…or you weren’t Christian.

I left that sect as soon as I moved away from my parents and joined the mainline Disciples of Christ. Several years and a few relocations after I decided to become Presbyterian. In that church all I needed to do was to re-affirm my faith in Christ and be voted in by Session. You have to admit that was much easier than the church of Christ method. And that basically was what I meant in fewer words.

But really the Disciples are much like the Presbyterians and the Disciples broke away from the Presbyterians.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

You make it sound as if God predestines people to be saved. That is not the case. Anyone who is baptized and dies in a state of grace (meaning that they either have not fully rejected God by sinning mortally, or if they have, they have repented before death, even at the last moment of life). For the unbaptized, we don’t know for sure whether they get to heaven, but we are simply to entrust them to God’s mercy. We know that God does not send anyone to hell, so for those who are unbaptized and have not completely rejected God or have repented of doing so, there is a possibility that they go somewhere else, commonly referred to as limbo. (Not as in a stuck-between place, but as in a happy place that is not heaven) However, I personally believe that these people are probably allowed in heaven. I don’t see God not letting someone in heaven because by no fault of their own, they were not baptized.

I believe we think the same thing, only you gave a much more amplified and clear version.
I would not agree with Limbo, however, as I think that was always only a speculated doc-
trine that was recently and finally decided upon: There is No Limbo.
You may be thinking of Purgatory.

 

[Mike_Wright]

Hi,

The Christian doctrine is the completion of the Jewish doctrine. The God’s Word is all about the Messiah. Yeshua is the fulfillment of this promise. The first believers were Jewish and then Gentiles. The Catholic Church came alone much later and has continually changed God’s Word. Some Catholics, like Martin Luther saw what the Roman Catholic Church was doing and tried to wake them up and return to God’s Word, the Bible. The RCC refused to return to the truth and has continued in error since. That is why this event is called the “Reformation” meaning to re-form or return to its original form. Christianity is totally Jewish and we should celebrate that at every chance we get. Jesus (Yeshua) always celebrated the 7 Feasts of Israel!

 

[Brendan_64]

Hi,

The Christian doctrine is the completion of the Jewish doctrine. The God’s Word is all about the Messiah. Yeshua is the fulfillment of this promise. The first believers were Jewish and then Gentiles. The Catholic Church came alone much later and has continually changed God’s Word. Some Catholics, like Martin Luther saw what the Roman Catholic Church was doing and tried to wake them up and return to God’s Word, the Bible. The RCC refused to return to the truth and has continued in error since. That is why this event is called the “Reformation” meaning to re-form or return to its original form. Christianity is totally Jewish and we should celebrate that at every chance we get. Jesus (Yeshua) always celebrated the 7 Feasts of Israel!

You mean like Sola Scriptura? Scripture alone is the sole source of authority of faith and morals? I guess then, that St Paul must have went about handing out Bibles to the gentiles?

Christ established a Church on Earth, not a book. It is the Church that Christ gave His authority to, and it is to Peter that He gave the powers to bind and loose.

The Canon of the Bible was decided upon by the early Church. None of the books of the Bible tell us that that particular book is divinely inspired, it was the Church which acted as the authority on the makeup of the Bible.

 

[JonNC]

There are over 30,000 non-Catholic Christian groups, including several Eastern Orthodox Churches, it is unreasonable to expect me to list them all or to conclude anything from any particular one missing from a list which contains “etc”. The simple fact that “Orthodoxy” isn’t “one church” would make it apparent that it can’t be the “one true Church”. If you want more context for the Belloc quote, I highly recommend reading The Great Heresies - you can purchase it from Amazon for $7.00 HERE. God bless.

The same sources that offer the “30,000” number also say there are 200 Catholic Churches. That’s no more true than claiming that the Church founded at Pentecost is only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

 

[GKC]

The same sources that offer the “30,000” number also say there are 200 Catholic Churches. That’s no more true than claiming that the Church founded at Pentecost is only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

I was thinking of replying along those lines, but it’s a Sisyphean task.

GKC, Belloc collector

 

[PietroPaolo]

The same sources that offer the “30,000” number also say there are 200 Catholic Churches. That’s no more true than claiming that the Church founded at Pentecost is only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome

Jon

Your comment misses my point entirely.

Originally you claimed my not mentioning a particular non-Catholic Christian group meant that they could be the “one true church.” I responded by pointing out that there are so many non-Catholic Christian groups it is absurd to draw the conclusion you did from my not mentioning specifically any particular one of them, especially as I included “etc” in the original list. Whether or not there are 200 groups claiming to be the Catholic Church is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, your original point is still absurd, my not mentioning the EO by name implies nothing.

We can have another conversation entirely on what Church is the True Church, but this thread seems to be the wrong place for that as it is straying significantly from the OP’s question.

Have a blessed Epiphany.

 

[GKC]

Your comment misses my point entirely.

Originally you claimed my not mentioning a particular non-Catholic Christian group meant that they could be the “one true church.” I responded by pointing out that there are so many non-Catholic Christian groups it is absurd to draw the conclusion you did from my not mentioning specifically any particular one of them, especially as I included “etc” in the original list. Whether or not there are 200 groups claiming to be the Catholic Church is irrelevant to the discussion we were having, your original point is still absurd, my not mentioning the EO by name implies nothing.

We can have another conversation entirely on what Church is the True Church, but this thread seems to be the wrong place for that as it is straying significantly from the OP’s question.

Have a blessed Epiphany.

Jon’s point is not that there are 200+ (around 247, IIRC) groups claiming to be the Catholic Church. It is that the group that issues the statistics that are the source for the 30,000 number (it goes up each year) also counts the RCC as 200+ Churches. It is an artifact of how they count a Church.

GKC

 

[PietroPaolo]

Jon’s point is not that there are 200+ (around 247, IIRC) groups claiming to be the Catholic Church. It is that the group that issues the statistics that are the source for the 30,000 number (it goes up each year) also counts the RCC as 200+ Churches. It is an artifact of how they count a Church.

GKC

Fair enough, but this still doesn’t justify jumping to his original conclusion based on my not specifically mentioning the EO. Whether there are 30,000, 3,000, or 300 groups it is still unreasonable to expect me to list them all, which is the only point I was making when mentioning the 30,000 number. As long as the number is larger than a dozen or so (which it certainly is), his conclusion is unfounded.

 

[GKC]

Fair enough, but this still doesn’t justify jumping to his original conclusion based on my not specifically mentioning the EO. Whether there are 30,000, 3,000, or 300 groups it is still unreasonable to expect me to list them all, which is the only point I was making when mentioning the 30,000 number. As long as the number is larger than a dozen or so (which it certainly is), his conclusion is unfounded.

Perhaps. But by bringing the 30,000 point up, he has increased your store of knowledge.

GKC

 

[PietroPaolo]

Perhaps. But by bringing the 30,000 point up, he has increased your store of knowledge.

GKC

And for that I thank him, but as much as I enjoy learning, it still has no bearing whatsoever on what we were talking about.

 

[GKC]

And for that I thank him, but as much as I enjoy learning, it still has no bearing whatsoever on what we were talking about.

I yield to your interpretation on that. For that matter, I yield to his. I’m a 30,000 churchs facts man.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

Perhaps. But by bringing the 30,000 point up, he has increased your store of knowledge.

GKC

But PietroPaolo gets the credit for first bringing up the “30,000 denominations”.

 

[commenter]

Catholics, stop throwing around those statistics, like Protestantism is supposedly divided into 20,000, or whatever the current number, of churches. No one, not one single Protestant in 500 years, ever converted to Catholicism after hearing that. Do you really think Joe Baptist will read something, then say “My God, the number of Protestant denominations is up to 30,000 now? Here I thought it was only 5,000! My eyes are open. Take me to the nearest RCIA.”

The figure is meaningless. Many Christians are in doctrinal and spiritual unity, though they belong to different denominations. Others are opposed to each other, in the same denomination. Many denominations began as historical accidents that don’t really divide Christians today.

In response, Protestants throw in that there are what, 20 or 200, different Catholic churches. Also meaningless. In my perspective, there is one Catholic Church, by which I include those who recognize the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. It includes Latin and Eastern Rite (Catholic) Churches. There are many raised as Catholics who now don’t accept that. I say they are no longer practical Catholics. There are a few who may belong to other denominations, who do accept that, and most are on the road to conversion to Rome.

But nothing, nothing is accomplished by counting denominations. Let’s count the things that unite us.