Are Protestants Saved?

[yablabo]

According to Catholic teaching, are Protestants saved (being saved, are to be saved, etc.)?

From the Bull “Cantata Domino,” February 4, Florentine style, 1441, modern, 1442

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

1983 Code of Canon Law defines heresy and schism.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

If Protestants, then, obstinately deny or obstinately doubt (after the reception of baptism) a “truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith”…then they are heretics and “will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41).” And, if so-called ‘Catholics’ or ‘Christians’ refuse “submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him” then they are schismatics and will go the same route as heretics. This is not to say that heretics and schismatics cannot be joined to the Church before their deaths, but they would have to follow what Canon Law prescribes in order to do so.

From Ad Apostolorum Principis an encyclical of Pope Pius XII dated June 29, 1958:

1. “We teach, . . . We declare that the Roman Church by the Providence of God holds the primacy of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate. Toward it, the pastors and the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both individually and collectively, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in matters which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the whole world, in such a way that once the unity of communion and the profession of the same Faith has been preserved with the Roman Pontiff, there is one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth from which no one can depart without loss of faith and salvation.”[17].

This shows that anyone who departs from “the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience” both in matters which pertain to faith and morals as well as matters which concern the discipline and government of the Church breaks from the “one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd” does so with the loss of both faith and salvation.

From the beginning of the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

One cannot keep the “Faith” whole if one does not know the truths of the faith. One cannot keep the “Faith” undefiled if one rejects truths of the faith. This is not to say that one would wake up one day and know everything he needs to know. On the contrary, unless we are like St. Teresa of Avila (and have the necessary truths divinely infused), by logic we can see that we then have to make good use of the time given on earth to fill ourselves with the necessary truths…following the prodding of our first moral principals: to seek the truth in all things and to do good and avoid evil.

Regarding infants and children, St. Augustine taught in his work “On Baptism:”

Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church, for many heretics also possess this Sacrament, but not the fruits of salvation. Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic church.

So, by this teaching, before the age of reason, these validly baptized children are not considered ‘Protestant,’ but members of the Church and we would have no reason to believe that they would go to hell if they died.

– Nicole

 

[thunderballs75]

I look at it this way on the fate of non-Catholics. Somebody correct me if this is unsound please. Jesus sat with the tax-collectors and sinners at dinner.

Suppose the tax-collectors had bad table manners. But they did not know any better, because they live in a place where everybody has bad table manners, or their parents taught them badly, etc. Should they be punished for that? No. However, this gives us the obligation to teach them the correct table manners. Once we have taught them the right table manners, if they continue to use bad table manners out of spite and defiance, *then *they should be punished.

I believe this is called “invincible ignorance.” Protestants are not “saved” in the exact sense, however they may not necessarily be damned.

 

[Janet1983]

I think it is most unlikely in normative sense that Protestants are saved. Those who are baptised and never commit a mortal sin-- e.g. infants, mentally retarted etc…, are saved but those who refuse to accept the WHOLE FAith can not be saved.

What can I say to that?
Oh how nice…

 

[gabriel22a]

I look at it this way on the salvation of non-Catholics. Somebody correct me if this is unsound please. Jesus sat with the tax-collectors and sinners at dinner.

Suppose the tax-collectors had bad table manners. But they did not know any better, because they live in a place where everybody has bad table manners, or their parents taught them badly, etc. Should they be punished for that? No. However, this gives us the obligation to teach them the correct table manners. Once we have taught them the right table manners, if they continue to use bad table manners out of spite and defiance, *then *they should be punished.

I believe this is called “invincible ignorance.”

I hope you’re right. If you’re wrong, I was lied to in RCIA, by my priest, deacon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Protestants who are ignorant of the Catholic faith and teaching, yet live lives of faith in Jesus Christ are not going to hell, Nicole. Your quotes do not prove this. Catholics, on the other hand, who go through all the right motions–and I’m not accusing you of this–but have unbelieving hearts, just might.

 

[gabriel22a]

What can I say to that?
Oh how nice…

Not at all nice. I see you are now Baptist. Do you hear a lot about Catholics going to hell in Baptistland? I didn’t in all the years I was Assemblies of God.

 

[thunderballs75]

I hope you’re right. If you’re wrong, I was lied to in RCIA, by my priest, deacon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

Sad to say, but nowadays it is not that ridiculous to believe that you *would *have been lied to by all of those things. But I got my understanding from pre-Vatican II stuff which helps ease some of my doubt. And I’m glad you understood what I was saying.

 

[Victorious]

I hope you’re right. If you’re wrong, I was lied to in RCIA, by my priest, deacon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Protestants who are ignorant of the Catholic faith and teaching, yet live lives of faith in Jesus Christ are not going to hell, Nicole. Your quotes do not prove this. Catholics, on the other hand, who go through all the right motions–and I’m not accusing you of this–but have unbelieving hearts, just might.

Certainly, we are held accountable according to the lights we’ve been given. The first Protestants deserted the Catholic Church, and were on an entirely different moral footing than today’s cradle Protestants, who are outside the Church through no fault of their own, and who – through no fault of their own – are ignorant of the Church and her teachings. Protestants who remain outside the Church despite being convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church are another story, since everyone has the duty to seek the truth, and to be faithful to the same once it’s found.

 

[yablabo]

I hope you’re right. If you’re wrong, I was lied to in RCIA, by my priest, deacon and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Protestants who are ignorant of the Catholic faith and teaching, yet live lives of faith in Jesus Christ are not going to hell, Nicole. Your quotes do not prove this. Catholics, on the other hand, who go through all the right motions–and I’m not accusing you of this–but have unbelieving hearts, just might.

I do not know what in my previous post did not show that the teaching of the Church is that all who are outside her cannot attain salvation when they die. Show me, if I am wrong, where I am wrong in the authoritative teaching that I presented.
Here is another explicit authoritative teaching:

UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
…
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

It cannot be disputed, then, that anyone who does not subject himself to the Roman Pontiff cannot see God as He sees Himself when he dies.

If “Protestants” are outside the Church for them “there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins.” If so-called “Catholics” are outside the Church for them “there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins.”

It is false to say that Protestants “live lives of faith in Jesus Christ.” Protestants protest against the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” united under the visible head, the Roman Pontiff. The Pontiff being put there by the authority of Christ…so not subjecting one’s self to the lawfull authority of the Roman Pontiff is the same as not being subject to Christ. One cannot live a life of faith in Christ and reject the authority Christ has put in place on earth.

As for being ignorant, one is not ignorant when he places error in his mind. Every man has the responsibility of being certain that what he holds as unfailing, irrevokable, and irreformable as regards what God says, is really and truly what God has said.

– Nicole

 

[Janet1983]

The first Protestants deserted the Catholic Church, and were on an entirely different moral footing than today’s cradle Protestants, who are outside the Church through no fault of their own, and who – through no fault of their own – are ignorant of the Church and her teachings.

Interesting assessment… How do you come to that?

 

[redrosetea]

According to Catholic teaching, are Protestants saved (being saved, are to be saved, etc.)?

Anyone that dies in the state of grace is saved…I suspect it is best to let God decide this matter for Himself

 

[Victorious]

Interesting assessment… How do you come to that?

Think about it. The first Protestants were Catholics, and were raised up in the Catholic faith. Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest. Because of the lights and the helps and graces given them in virtue of their Catholic faith, they were blameworthy – especially the priests, like Luther and Zwingli, who actively and deliberately led so many astray, and others who, by their disedifying lives, left the souls under their care weak in the face of this spiritual onslaught. Sound harsh? No harsher than the final verses of 2 Peter, Chapter 2 (which, by the way, shoots down the theory of “once saved, always saved”):

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

Present-day Protestants who were born into Protestantism are not on the same moral footing as those who had left the Catholic Church. These did not voluntarily abandon the faith, but find themselves outside the Church through no fault of their own. However, if they come to know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and still persist in remaining outside her, that is another story.

 

[thunderballs75]

Think about it. The first Protestants were Catholics, and were raised up in the Catholic faith. Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest. Because of the lights and the helps and graces given them in virtue of their Catholic faith, they were blameworthy – especially the priests, like Luther and Zwingli, who actively and deliberately led so many astray, and others who, by their disedifying lives, left the souls under their care weak in the face of this spiritual onslaught. Sound harsh? No harsher than the final verses of 2 Peter, Chapter 2 (which, by the way, shoots down the theory of “once saved, always saved”):

Present-day Protestants who were born into Protestantism are not on the same moral footing as those who had left the Catholic Church. These did not voluntarily abandon the faith, but find themselves outside the Church through no fault of their own. However, if they come to know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and still persist in remaining outside her, that is another story.

You are truly Victorious.

 

[TLM08]

Anyone that dies in the state of grace is saved…I suspect it is best to let God decide this matter for Himself

The above is accurate catholic teaching but scripture says something completely different.

"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ROMANS 10:9-13

 

[redrosetea]

The above is accurate catholic teaching but scripture says something completely different.

"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ROMANS 10:9-13

Christ also said everyone who says Lord Lord will not enter into the kingdom…that brings us right back to grace

 

[gabriel22a]

I do not know what in my previous post did not show that the teaching of the Church is that all who are outside her cannot attain salvation when they die. Show me, if I am wrong, where I am wrong in the authoritative teaching that I presented.
Here is another explicit authoritative teaching:

UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
…
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

It cannot be disputed, then, that anyone who does not subject himself to the Roman Pontiff cannot see God as He sees Himself when he dies.

If “Protestants” are outside the Church for them “there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins.” If so-called “Catholics” are outside the Church for them “there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins.”

It is false to say that Protestants “live lives of faith in Jesus Christ.” Protestants protest against the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” united under the visible head, the Roman Pontiff. The Pontiff being put there by the authority of Christ…so not subjecting one’s self to the lawfull authority of the Roman Pontiff is the same as not being subject to Christ. One cannot live a life of faith in Christ and reject the authority Christ has put in place on earth.

As for being ignorant, one is not ignorant when he places error in his mind. Every man has the responsibility of being certain that what he holds as unfailing, irrevokable, and irreformable as regards what God says, is really and truly what God has said.

– Nicole

 

[TLM08]

Christ also said everyone who says Lord Lord will not enter into the kingdom…that brings us right back to grace

And the rest of that passage is critical:

**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ **

This is speaking directly to religious people facing judgement without ever having a relationship with Christ. This ought to be a wake up call for anyone who thinks that their religion is going to save them.

 

[gabriel22a]

From the Bull “Cantata Domino,” February 4, Florentine style, 1441, modern, 1442

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

1983 Code of Canon Law defines heresy and schism.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

If Protestants, then, obstinately deny or obstinately doubt (after the reception of baptism) a “truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith”…then they are heretics and “will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41).” And, if so-called ‘Catholics’ or ‘Christians’ refuse “submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him” then they are schismatics and will go the same route as heretics. This is not to say that heretics and schismatics cannot be joined to the Church before their deaths, but they would have to follow what Canon Law prescribes in order to do so.

From Ad Apostolorum Principis an encyclical of Pope Pius XII dated June 29, 1958:

1. “We teach, . . . We declare that the Roman Church by the Providence of God holds the primacy of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate. Toward it, the pastors and the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both individually and collectively, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in matters which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the whole world, in such a way that once the unity of communion and the profession of the same Faith has been preserved with the Roman Pontiff, there is one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth from which no one can depart without loss of faith and salvation.”[17].

This shows that anyone who departs from “the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience” both in matters which pertain to faith and morals as well as matters which concern the discipline and government of the Church breaks from the “one flock of the Church of Christ under one supreme shepherd” does so with the loss of both faith and salvation.

From the beginning of the Athanasian Creed:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

One cannot keep the “Faith” whole if one does not know the truths of the faith. One cannot keep the “Faith” undefiled if one rejects truths of the faith. This is not to say that one would wake up one day and know everything he needs to know. On the contrary, unless we are like St. Teresa of Avila (and have the necessary truths divinely infused), by logic we can see that we then have to make good use of the time given on earth to fill ourselves with the necessary truths…following the prodding of our first moral principals: to seek the truth in all things and to do good and avoid evil.

Regarding infants and children, St. Augustine taught in his work “On Baptism:”

Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church, for many heretics also possess this Sacrament, but not the fruits of salvation. Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic church.

So, by this teaching, before the age of reason, these validly baptized children are not considered ‘Protestant,’ but members of the Church and we would have no reason to believe that they would go to hell if they died.

– Nicole

According to the current CCC:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts thems as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

You seem really up to date on early teachings of the Church and I am not. So I cannot speak to your arguments from those. But I hope that the CCC is sufficient.

 

[redrosetea]

And the rest of that passage is critical:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This is speaking directly to religious people facing judgement without ever having a relationship with Christ. This ought to be a wake up call for anyone who thinks that their religion is going to save them.

There is nothing in this quote that disputes what I have said…they are not in a state of grace

You are simply trying to split hairs

 

[Spiritoftruth]

…i would say that like “good Catholic’s”, “good Protestants” are saved…

 

[redrosetea]

Heaven will be a big eye opener and a mouth shut-er