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Leonius
Guest
This is not about judgement it is about what God has revealed.
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treba
Guest
There is room for Catholics who may be unaware of a particular dogma and would conform to the teaching of the canon as soon as it were presented to them. The person who is obstinate, however, and willfully contradicts the dogmatic teaching of the Church receives the full force of the automatic condemnation applies.
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The point here is that if one is able to reject these dogmas and still be saved, then these infallible definitions and their accompanying anathemas have no meaning, value or force. But they do have meaning, value and force – they are infallible teachings protected by Jesus Christ. Thus, all who reject these dogmas are anathematized and on the road to damnation.**“If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist there are truly, really, and substantially contained the Body and Blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore the whole Christ, but shall say that He is in it as by sign or figure, or force, let him be anathema.”
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Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Session 14, Canon 3 on the Sacrament of Penance: “If anyone says that the words of the Lord Savior: ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins ye shall retain, they are retained’ [John 20:22 f.], are not to be understood of the power remitting and retaining sins in the sacrament of penance… let him be anathema.”
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Session 14, on Extreme Unction and Penance: “These are the things which this sacred ecumenical synod professes and teaches concerning the sacraments of penance and extreme unction, and it sets them forth to be believed and held by all the faithful of Christ. Moreover, the following canons, it says, must be inviolately observed, and it condemns and anathematizes forever those who assert the contrary.”
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chap. 16, ex cathedra:
"After this Catholic doctrine of justification - which, unless he faithfully and firmly accepts, no one can be justified - it seemed good to the holy Synod to add these canons, so that all may know, not only what they must hold and follow, but also what they ought to shun and avoid."
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870, Sess. 4, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: "… all the faithful of Christ must believe that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church… Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others… This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation."
No Protestant accepts all of these dogmas
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gabriel22a
Guest
Thanks for the reminder. Humility should mark our conversations and often do not. I am much more comfortable leaving judgment in the hands of the Divine than in the hands of man. IMHO He is more merciful than we can imagine–which is good for everyone involved!
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Christ_Imitator
Guest
You could say that it is possible that there is no God, Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.
There is also a possibility that the idea of “once saved, always saved” is true, as well as the idea of “losing salvation”.
**None of us **really know. We follow what our churches, synagouges, catherdrals, temples, etc, tell us. We hope that what we believe is right, because if in the end it was wrong, we could be in really big trouble…depending on how far off we were from what we should have done.
Orthodox people are not saved, Catholics are not saved, Protestants are not saved.
*Individual people are saved by the grace of God. He forgives us of our sins when we ask him to. Because of his mercy, if we are to wander off the “path”, he will forgive us if we come back. We of course, also need to repent *of those sins, changing our lif-style at times in order to not be commiting that sin again. Sometimes it happens again, so we go back to God, and ask him once again to forgive us,
and to give us strength through his holy spirit to conquor the sin (not do it again).
There is also a possibility that the idea of “once saved, always saved” is true, as well as the idea of “losing salvation”.
**None of us **really know. We follow what our churches, synagouges, catherdrals, temples, etc, tell us. We hope that what we believe is right, because if in the end it was wrong, we could be in really big trouble…depending on how far off we were from what we should have done.
Orthodox people are not saved, Catholics are not saved, Protestants are not saved.
*Individual people are saved by the grace of God. He forgives us of our sins when we ask him to. Because of his mercy, if we are to wander off the “path”, he will forgive us if we come back. We of course, also need to repent *of those sins, changing our lif-style at times in order to not be commiting that sin again. Sometimes it happens again, so we go back to God, and ask him once again to forgive us,
and to give us strength through his holy spirit to conquor the sin (not do it again).
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Humility does not mean allowing others to step on us or our beliefs. It does not mean to allow others to “twist” the words of our fellow Catholics into something that was not meant. We must defend the faith, this is also our duty. Was Jesus meek and mild when He threw over the tables of the vendors outside of the temple? No, and He was angry too! He also called them names…true names. We must remember that false humility serves no one but the devil. So, let us be careful. Be prayerful and humble before the Lord. …but in His defense, we must be warriors. Jesus will judge us on our willingness to defend Him and His church as well as on our other acts…or lack of acts. Remember, he said that in the end many would come before Him and plead that they did good works, and He will answer them by saying…when? I know you not. It is our job as Christians to try to stop heresies.Thanks for the reminder. Humility should mark our conversations and often do not. I am much more comfortable leaving judgment in the hands of the Divine than in the hands of man. IMHO He is more merciful than we can imagine–which is good for everyone involved!
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Leonius
Guest
Catholics KNOW what they believe is right, that is what true faith is, we believe what God has revealed because it is God who has revealed it. This is the gift of Faith which God has given to Catholics.
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Christ_Imitator
Guest
No nobody KNOWS.
Protestants also claim they KNOW. And, I understand that if God’s real, then his Bible would be too.
But, it’s the same with all other religions; all claim they know & that they’re right.
If they were all right, then each of the religions would be WRONG.
We have faith & hope that we are right. But, we can’t know for certain that all that we believe is true.
Protestants also claim they KNOW. And, I understand that if God’s real, then his Bible would be too.
But, it’s the same with all other religions; all claim they know & that they’re right.
If they were all right, then each of the religions would be WRONG.
We have faith & hope that we are right. But, we can’t know for certain that all that we believe is true.
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ac_claire
Guest
I agree with Leonius. We don’t hope that what we believe is true, we know it’s true. That’s faith. If I didn’t know for sure then I wouldn’t bother to be honest with you. Christianity is too hard of a life to live on a hunch or crossed fingers “hoping” you’re on the right team.
I think you might be confusing knowing that our faith is right and hoping in our eventual salvation. As far as salvation goes, you’re correct in that we don’t know, but we hope.
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Leonius
Guest
I just told you I do know, just because you do not does not mean no one else can.
God has told me so I know, if you don’t then that is your problem no one can force you to have Faith.
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ac_claire
Guest
One more thing…You’re saying that it’s impossible, and yet we’ve shown you that we do, in fact, know. Don’t you wish you could have absolute knowledge that you’re on the right team and that God exists and hears your prayers?
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gabriel22a
Guest
Yes, sometimes humility does require all of those things–as does love. If defending the faith involves violating the commandment to love by name-calling, hateful words and other means, than true humility must step in and require respect for the dignity of even those we disagree with.
What brought in the comment about false humility serving the devil?
Jesus never sinned. He was right in everything He did on earth. He is God. But I think using what He did as an excuse for saying whatever we want in defense of our version of the faith (and you must admit on this forum many proclaim theirs as the one and only true faith even when the Church teaches otherwise) is shaky ground.
Most of what Jesus taught had little to do with defending the faith. He did talk a lot about how we should behave–like in the Beatitudes.
Read a little in the Gospels about how Jesus sent out His disciples. He told them to preach the good news, to pray for peace to be on the house where they were staying, but that if anyone did not receive the good news, they should shake the dust off their sandals and leave. He did not encourage them to resort to name calling, or demand that people believe they were right or risk hell. And if anyone had the “right” to do this, I would think it be His disciples.
If your heart is for the Faith, then try kindness. If people don’t believe you, try persuasion. But this angry approach is not working–it is alienating. I don’t believe other people will necessarily agree with me, but I’m okay with that.
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gabriel22a
Guest
This is why it is called faith. Some are more certain in their faith to the point that they say they know. But it is still faith. God set it up that way–“For without faith it is impossible to please God.”
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Leonius
Guest
“And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.” Matthew 11:23
“You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?” Matthew 23:33
Read the Second Epistle of Peter.
Read the many passages where they tell the Jews they must believe in Christ to be saved.
Read Acts 5 where Ananias and Saphira are judged by Peter and struck down by God.
Christ spent plenty of time talking about the necessity of Faith and of believing His teachings and following His commandments.
“You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?” Matthew 23:33
Read the Second Epistle of Peter.
Read the many passages where they tell the Jews they must believe in Christ to be saved.
Read Acts 5 where Ananias and Saphira are judged by Peter and struck down by God.
Christ spent plenty of time talking about the necessity of Faith and of believing His teachings and following His commandments.
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Christ_Imitator
Guest
Muslims claim the SAME THING!! They say that they know, because they have faith in Allah. I have a Muslim girl who attends my high school.
And, maybe you think that God told you he’s real… maybe it was Allah that was trying to tell you that he’s real, not God (of the Holy Bible).
I do have strong faith that God is real, and that I am saved.
I have prayed to God to show me what he wants for me to do with my life and that he would give me the strength of the Holy Spirit to live for him & to have strength to repent and turn away from my sinful lifestyle.
Personaly, I figure, if for that small chance God isn’t there, I’ve lived my life for something that I think is important, and I worked my hardest at it. Never once do I regret following God, and wouldn’t change anything in my life.
I live my life with faith, knowledge, hope, and open-mindedness.
I have a strong faith in the Lord and chose to follow his ways. I also am open to listeing to new ideas people have on the subect, although the Bible is typically my final authoirty in any situation. From what I know, we can not be certain that something unseen & unheard is real. However, we have things around us that we see & hear that can tell us there’s a god. But it does not tell us that it’s the God from our Holy Bible.
And, just because the Bible says it’s real, doesn’t make it so. I bet the Quaran says the same thing about Allah.
And, maybe you think that God told you he’s real… maybe it was Allah that was trying to tell you that he’s real, not God (of the Holy Bible).
I do have strong faith that God is real, and that I am saved.
I have prayed to God to show me what he wants for me to do with my life and that he would give me the strength of the Holy Spirit to live for him & to have strength to repent and turn away from my sinful lifestyle.
Personaly, I figure, if for that small chance God isn’t there, I’ve lived my life for something that I think is important, and I worked my hardest at it. Never once do I regret following God, and wouldn’t change anything in my life.
I live my life with faith, knowledge, hope, and open-mindedness.
I have a strong faith in the Lord and chose to follow his ways. I also am open to listeing to new ideas people have on the subect, although the Bible is typically my final authoirty in any situation. From what I know, we can not be certain that something unseen & unheard is real. However, we have things around us that we see & hear that can tell us there’s a god. But it does not tell us that it’s the God from our Holy Bible.
And, just because the Bible says it’s real, doesn’t make it so. I bet the Quaran says the same thing about Allah.
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
First, I didn’t call them names, I did point out the sin of pride and the fact that they are saying things that are untrue and spreading falsehoods. That is not name calling. Second, I have read the scriptures. And it is stated that we need to defend the truth. So, does our Catechism say this.
And, I am a kind person, and I do care. I have had many nice conversations with non-believers, including athiests, protestants and muslims… But to hear over and over about how we worship Mary…is not something that should be allowed to let go. It is a lie.
To allow people to believe iies is to not love them and to allow them to go on believing those lies can possibly endanger their salvation; this is a dis-service to them.
I will apologize for getting perhaps too emotional… but, to say that we disobey the First Commandment as a regular practice of our faith…was just too much for me.
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gabriel22a
Guest
I agreed that Jesus used harsh words. No disagreement here. I just don’t believe that we can use what He did, as God, to justify some of the ways people defend the faith. IMO it is overused on this forum to excuse uncharitable communication. And what is the point of the discussions? Hopefully to lead people to the Truth.
I want more people to come into the Catholic Church. And yes, they must believe in Christ to be saved, they must recognize God is both just and merciful, they must believe and obey His commandments, they must understand and follow the teachings of the Church. But they will not be won over by arguments that show discord and anger. (Yes, I know, Jesus got angry.)
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treba
Guest
Jesus used name calling!:
Mt 23:
24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs
33 “You serpents and brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
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ac_claire
Guest
Hm, since when is “open-mindedness” a virtue? Christ Imitator, it is possible for you to KNOW that God exists. Not by your own power, but through Faith which is a gift of God. You receive the gift when you want it enough that you surrender your will to His.
As it is, it seems like you’ve based your life on a modifed ecumenical version of Pascal’s Wager. Actual faith would be better, wouldn’t it?
You can’t truly believe in more than one contradictory belief system. I’m afraid that you’ve opened your mind so much that your good sense has fallen out. You need to have some courage and take a leap of faith. You know what God says about those who sit on the fence don’t you, and are neither hot nor cold…? It’s not good. I don’t care what the Quaran says; it’s a false gospel that we’re commanded to reject. You can’t serve two masters.I have a strong faith in the Lord and chose to follow his ways. I also am open to listeing to new ideas people have on the subect, although the Bible is typically my final authoirty in any situation. From what I know, we can not be certain that something unseen & unheard is real. However, we have things around us that we see & hear that can tell us there’s a god. But it does not tell us that it’s the God from our Holy Bible. And, just because the Bible says it’s real, doesn’t make it so. I bet the Quaran says the same thing about Allah.
To sit there on the fence trying to keep your feet in both (or many!) camps, refusing to make a firm committment to any of them (as shown by your quotes bolded above) displays a lack of courage. Why don’t you make the leap and just believe in the God who made you with all your heart, mind and strength like you’re supposed to?
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Christ_Imitator
Guest
I do believe in him completley, I thought I made that clear in my post.
I am not one of these fence-sitters either (also known as “lukewarm” christians).
I believe that if we are going to be Christ-followers (Christians) that we should follow him with all our hearts.
I was simply making the point that it’s alright to be completley honest with yourself.
But having faith, and trusting in the Lord is something we should do as well.
I am not one of these fence-sitters either (also known as “lukewarm” christians).
I believe that if we are going to be Christ-followers (Christians) that we should follow him with all our hearts.
I was simply making the point that it’s alright to be completley honest with yourself.
But having faith, and trusting in the Lord is something we should do as well.
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gabriel22a
Guest
I am sorry we are not communicating well. I did not disagree that Jesus used harsh statements. I disagree with using it as an excuse for uncharitable communication on this forum. He is God. We are not. I think we should talk to one another as brothers in Christ–because we are commanded to and because people are watching. It is a bad witness.
And the quotes you use were aimed at Pharisees–those who clung to the law without having the true law written on their hearts. He didn’t yell at them because they wouldn’t accept the truth, He yelled at them for misrepresenting God to the people by binding them to a law even they couldn’t keep. He was angry because they were hypocrits who clung to the law as though it would save them and were leading God’s people into slavery. That is the context.
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