Are Protestants Saved?

[gabriel22a]

Take it easy. I’m not sure why you are getting defensive. I don’t reject Catholic teaching. I merely pointed out that it is difficult. In this day and age there are many resources available about The Church and it’s teachings to access, especially for a Bible College! Perhaps you should contact that college and demand to know why the ancient Faith that was taught in the early Church and is continued to be taught is not even mentioned at their college.

I stand by what I said. The Church says may…through no fault of their own. It has taught this for a long time.
Please explain how I am, “rejecting current teaching”
To even assume that there is a current teaching is to assume that Truth changes and this is false.

Btw, I know plenty of Protestants that reject the Church and scoff at my beliefs, including Pastors. Maybe we have just had different experiences.

I apologize if I came off too harsh or offensive. But don’t assume the worst of me or accuse me of being dissident. I take offense to that.

I re-read my post–not sure how I sounded defensive. I don’t feel defensive. My comments at the end were intended to ward off another go-around about the teachings in the CCC. I meant that if that is not common ground, I don’t know how to come into agreement.

I apologize if I gave offense. None intended. And I was under the impression that you don’t have to believe the CCC—not accepting it as the current teaching of the Church doesn’t make one a dissident. I’ve said before that I understand people disagree on this. Doesn’t make either one a dissident.

 

[jam070406]

***So id a OSAS person dies in Mortal sin, they are not going to heaven, any more than a Catholic who dies in Mortal sin. ***

Would’t those that hold to OSAS be commiting the sin of presumption to begin with?

newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm

 

[jam070406]

I re-read my post–not sure how I sounded defensive. I don’t feel defensive. My comments at the end were intended to ward off another go-around about the teachings in the CCC. I meant that if that is not common ground, I don’t know how to come into agreement.

I apologize if I gave offense. None intended. And I was under the impression that you don’t have to believe the CCC—not accepting it as the current teaching of the Church doesn’t make one a dissident. I’ve said before that I understand people disagree on this. Doesn’t make either one a dissident.

I apologize. Perhaps we were speaking past each other.
I thought you were referring to me specifically when you mentioned people that don’t follow Church teaching.

 

[gabriel22a]

I apologize. Perhaps we were speaking past each other.
I thought you were referring to me specifically when you mentioned people that don’t follow Church teaching.

I agree–sorry for the confusion. This thread has gotten long and some subjects overlap–both on the thread and in my head.

And I’ve been tempted to sue my Bible college–spent a lot of money there. But I won’t take my “brothers” to court…wouldn’t win anyway!

 

[seeker_of_God]

Yes, sometimes humility does require all of those things–as does love. If defending the faith involves violating the commandment to love by name-calling, hateful words and other means, than true humility must step in and require respect for the dignity of even those we disagree with.

What brought in the comment about false humility serving the devil?

Jesus never sinned. He was right in everything He did on earth. He is God. But I think using what He did as an excuse for saying whatever we want in defense of our version of the faith (and you must admit on this forum many proclaim theirs as the one and only true faith even when the Church teaches otherwise) is shaky ground.

Most of what Jesus taught had little to do with defending the faith. He did talk a lot about how we should behave–like in the Beatitudes.

Read a little in the Gospels about how Jesus sent out His disciples. He told them to preach the good news, to pray for peace to be on the house where they were staying, but that if anyone did not receive the good news, they should shake the dust off their sandals and leave. He did not encourage them to resort to name calling, or demand that people believe they were right or risk hell. And if anyone had the “right” to do this, I would think it be His disciples.

If your heart is for the Faith, then try kindness. If people don’t believe you, try persuasion. But this angry approach is not working–it is alienating. I don’t believe other people will necessarily agree with me, but I’m okay with that.

The uncharitable communication prevalent in this forum concerns me. I certainly don’t believe it is how Jesus would want us to act. I believe that love should shape all of our interactions, with everyone, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Pagan, whether friend or otherwise. If we aren’t acting out of love, we aren’t following Jesus’ commands and teachings, quite simply.

I have said in other threads, and will say again, that I believe God’s justice has been over-emphasized, and His mercy deemphasized. I know plenty of people who aren’t Catholic, but who are good people and try to do good. I know at least one person who is more charitable than some Catholics I’ve come across.

I agree with gabriel22a that this legalistic view doesn’t help anyone. It makes us feel like an exclusive club above everyone else. We should be thankful to God for showing us the truth, and pray that others may receive it as well, but never should we condemn someone else, as that’ll serve only to push them away.

 

[kleine_katerine]

I hope they will be, I have protestant friends!

Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to talk to them about our respective faiths, see if they want to enter the church…?

 

[ac_claire]

ac claire, please explain to me how you can know 100%that the Bible is the true word of God, and that it is completley without error.

Because I have faith that it is.

 

[Leonius]

Please explain to me where you get this crazy idea.

What I gathered from what you said…is that Catholics know that the way they interpret the Bible, because they are Catholic. I don’t understand that logic?

WE do not interpret the Bible at all, God gave us the meaning through Christ and the Apostles who have then passed it down to us, one of the benefits of been in the Church founded by Christ Himself.

Why do you think that the Protestant Churches are wrong in the way they interpret the Bible?

Because it is not theirs to interpret, they interpret it in contradictory ways, and the way they interpret it is not in line with How Christians understood it from the time of Christ. Most importantly God has not given them the AUTHORITY to interpret the scriptures or to preach.

Do you think it’s part of God’s plan that we have different ideas of what the Bible is telling us?

Absolutely not, in fact God condemns this in the scriptures themselves. You seem to lack a basic understanding of what God has done and what Faith is. God has revealed His truths, we do not have to have ideas we just need to accept them, they do not need us to discover them or figure them out, they are already known, already revealed, we just need to have Faith in what God has made known to us. If you are following your own ideas then you are not following God and do not have Faith, you are following yourself.

And, there are different types of “Catholics” out there, maybe you are part of the wrong Catholic Church, and your interpritations of the Bible are wrong too.

All Catholics share a common faith, one Faith, likewise there is only one Catholic Church and I do no have any interpretations of the Bible to be wrong in the first place, the Church passes on Gods revelation I do not interpret it. This is in line with Gods commandment that all His flock be ONE, why do protestants not listen to that command?

Go read numbers 16 there you will find the followers of Core who rebelled against Gods chosen leader of His people, protestants did the same when they started their communities.

 

[2equals1]

“As a Bible college student, we were not taught the claims of the Catholic Church. Especially not the concept that Catholics believe they belong to the one true church and everyone else was bound for hell. If I had known that some Catholics believed this or had it been presented as the current stated position of the Church, I would have found it cultish. Obviously I can’t speak for all colleges. But most denominational colleges tend to focus on teaching their own doctrine and the study of Scripture.”

I agree with gabriel22a…

My husband studied at a bible college and seminary and had no clue about Catholic thought. He was unaware that Christianity and the Catholic Church are the same thing nor was he aware of any but a passing mention of the Church Fathers, his study of church history began with Acts and not much more. He knew nothing about current Catholic theology. He formed no opinion about Catholics other than they must be “separated brethren” of some kind. All he learned was bible, bible, bible.

 

[ac_claire]

What I gathered from what you said…is that Catholics know that the way they interpret the Bible, because they are Catholic. I don’t understand that logic?
Why do you think that the Protestant Churches are wrong in the way they interpret the Bible? Do you think it’s part of God’s plan that we have different ideas of what the Bible is telling us? And, there are different types of “Catholics” out there, maybe you are part of the wrong Catholic Church, and your interpritations of the Bible are wrong too.

ac claire, please explain to me how you can know 100% that the Bible is the true word of God, and that it is completley without error. This is what I was really trying to get at I guess; not so much the existance of God, because I truly believe he is out there.

CI, humor me for a minute and try this excersize ok? It might help you to understand what we’re trying to say. Close your eyes and think about just believing without doubt that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that there is no salvation except through Him, and that His Church and the Scriptures are 100% inspired, infallible and reliable. Just imagine wanting to believe that, and deciding that you’re going to believe it. Because you want to with all your heart. And knowing that accepting this with all your heart and will automatically means rejecting every other belief system (your ghandi quotes, your sympathies to the “truths” of Islam, etc.) So…if you’ve done that…what are the first things that you’re thinking/feeling as a response? Be honest.

 

[Leonius]

“As a Bible college student, we were not taught the claims of the Catholic Church. Especially not the concept that Catholics believe they belong to the one true church and everyone else was bound for hell. If I had known that some Catholics believed this or had it been presented as the current stated position of the Church, I would have found it cultish. Obviously I can’t speak for all colleges. But most denominational colleges tend to focus on teaching their own doctrine and the study of Scripture.”

I agree with gabriel22a…

My husband studied at a bible college and seminary and had no clue about Catholic thought. He was unaware that Christianity and the Catholic Church are the same thing nor was he aware of any but a passing mention of the Church Fathers, his study of church history began with Acts and not much more. He knew nothing about current Catholic theology. He formed no opinion about Catholics other than they must be “separated brethren” of some kind. All he learned was bible, bible, bible.

But the Catholic Church is in the Bible, some protestants have converted to Catholicism purely from studying the bible and recognising that only the Catholic Church fits what is in the scriptures. Scott Hahn is a well known example.

 

[PJM]

The above is accurate catholic teaching but scripture says something completely different.

Oh really

]"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” ROMANS 10:9-13

***Are you aware that Paul is speaking here of the sacrament of Confession? Jn.20:21-23 , 1 John 1: 7-10, and 1 Jn. 5: 15-17] ***

***Please note that this is Jesus speaking to St. Peter: ***18 And I ****tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."2 Cor.2:14"2 Cor. 2:14 “But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumph, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word; but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.”

Eph. 4:4 "There is one body[meaning ONLY on church] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith,[One set of beliefs and understanding of the Bible] one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift

Then friend please read Jn.3:5, Mt.18:18, Mt. 19:16, Jn. 3-36, Jn.20:21-23, Eph.2:7-10 especially verse 10, Mt.25: 35-46, Heb. 6:10 and James : 2:26. Your position cannot and is not supported from a correct understanding of the bible. Please look up these passages and you’ll have to rethink your position.

***Jn.17:17 “.Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”/*COLOR]
Love and prayer’s

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Janet1983
Yeah right… And so you are telling me that the reformers as well as every Cradle Catholic who converts away from Catholicism is doing what we find in Peter??

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.”

I disagree with that interpretation. I actually found Christ and started having a relationship with Him after I was disentangled from the RCC… That was when I have escaped the pollutions of the world. I agree that there are Catholics who are definitely saved, but I was not and now I am.

***From you’re lips to Gods ears Janet.:***shrug: It’s Christ Himself you have this issue with. Please consider the following.

1 Peter 4: 17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And "If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?"

***2nd. Tim. 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ***

---

1 Thess 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

---

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Eph. 4:4 "There is one body[meaning as mandated in Mt. 16:18-19 ONLY MY one Church! ] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith [ONLY ONE set of beliefs and only ONE understanding of thee Bible…My catholic Bible!], one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Cor. 2:14 "2 Cor. 2:14 “But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumph, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word; but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.”

**John 17:“17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

**

You might want to rethink you’re postion. Jesus does not agree with you It’s amatter of you’re salvation.

Love and prayers that you will do what Jesus says; the right thing!

 

[Janet1983]

***From you’re lips to Gods ears Janet.:***shrug: It’s Christ Himself you have this issue with. Please consider the following.

You might want to rethink you’re postion. Jesus does not agree with you It’s amatter of you’re salvation.

Love and prayers that you will do what Jesus says; the right thing!

I do believe Scripture and I am sure that I am part of Christ’s Church. It is a matter of my salvation and I believe Jesus Christ and follow Him alone.
I do not depend on the world or on a pope…
I did depend on the pope for the longest time and I did hold a couple of positions that were special for a woman without a theological degree… I knew what I was talking about when I was talking about it and I taught some of it in my Religion class (my teacher thought that would keep me from getting bored as I was interested and way past the instructions given there) as well as a catechist in my parish (I was the youngest group leader by far as I was just 17). I did rely on the pope and I had to sit down and study scripture all over when I got saved because I realized that I knew nothing… it was worthwhile however to get to know God’s Word more intimately without the tradition of a church.

 

[narrow_path]

I do believe Scripture and I am sure that I am part of Christ’s Church. It is a matter of my salvation and I believe Jesus Christ and follow Him alone.
I do not depend on the world or on a pope…
I did depend on the pope for the longest time and I did hold a couple of positions that were special for a woman without a theological degree… I knew what I was talking about when I was talking about it and I taught some of it in my Religion class (my teacher thought that would keep me from getting bored as I was interested and way past the instructions given there) as well as a catechist in my parish (I was the youngest group leader by far as I was just 17). I did rely on the pope and I had to sit down and study scripture all over when I got saved because I realized that I knew nothing… it was worthwhile however to get to know God’s Word more intimately without the tradition of a church.

It’s sure nice to see someone giving the other side of the story to these threads. Not to mention, how ironic it is that an informed Catholic would know full well that he or she will NEVER be sure if they are saved in this lifetime. Imagine the incentive to join the RCC from this standpoint…what would the sign read? Something like, “Come, join the one true church that Christ himself established so that you too can never know if you’re going to heaven.”

The fact of the matter is that Christ’s true church includes everyone who has a spiritual relationshp with Him regardless of whatever religious label we like to use. I just happen to think that many sincere Catholics are going to be very surprised one day…

 

[2equals1]

But the Catholic Church is in the Bible, some protestants have converted to Catholicism purely from studying the bible and recognising that only the Catholic Church fits what is in the scriptures. Scott Hahn is a well known example.

I believe Scott Hahn discovered that the form of the Mass opened his eyes to the Holy Scriptures. Prior to this he did not know that the Mass contains many scriptural images and this led him to study the bible with new understanding.

 

[Brian777]

Must we re-hash this useless debate over and over again? Two posts are necessary for such a question:

1. the OP’s question post
2. a solid quote from scripture, the catechism, or EX CATHEDRA decrees on Salvation(preferably all three at once)
   after this the question is answered with true catholic teaching and the conversation need go no further. so here is that second post long overdue:

Most protestants are not saved, very few that are undergo great suffering in Purgatory, but that will make their joy in Heaven all the more Immaculate.

BUT, in general the dogma of Salvation is summed up rather well in this ex cathedra decree (for you Catholics out there that means complete and utterly true!)

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441:
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also jews and heretics, and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood; for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

from scripture for my heretical Christian brethren…

St. John 6:54
Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

that sounds simple to me and God is not complicated; he works in simple ways so that us humans can get to heaven without having brain anuerisms(sp?)! its all in black and white, so to the OP, the answer in short is in general, NO. (also read the catechism)

 

[gabriel22a]

Must we re-hash this useless debate over and over again? Two posts are necessary for such a question:

1. the OP’s question post
2. a solid quote from scripture, the catechism, or EX CATHEDRA decrees on Salvation(preferably all three at once)
   after this the question is answered with true catholic teaching and the conversation need go no further. so here is that second post long overdue:

Most protestants are not saved, very few that are undergo great suffering in Purgatory, but that will make their joy in Heaven all the more Immaculate.

BUT, in general the dogma of Salvation is summed up rather well in this ex cathedra decree (for you Catholics out there that means complete and utterly true!)

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441:
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also jews and heretics, and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood; for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

from scripture for my heretical Christian brethren…

St. John 6:54
Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

that sounds simple to me and God is not complicated; he works in simple ways so that us humans can get to heaven without having brain anuerisms(sp?)! its all in black and white, so to the OP, the answer in short is in general, NO. (also read the catechism)

If you haven’t already, I suggest you read the thread. “Proofs” from the sources you mentioned have been quoted multiple times. And I’m sorry this is old hat for you–it’s not for me. I didn’t even know it was a question until this thread came up and it has caused me to do a lot of research.

And to answer your last statement–I agree with the parenthetical comment “read the catechism” – especially 817-819. I’m glad you have a clear answer for yourself about this issue, but I didn’t and I’m glad it came up so that I could further my education on the teachings of the Church. Apparently people are divided on this issue, but neither side’s view constitutes dissidence.

 

[ac_claire]

I believe Scott Hahn discovered that the form of the Mass opened his eyes to the Holy Scriptures. Prior to this he did not know that the Mass contains many scriptural images and this led him to study the bible with new understanding.

But Mr. Hahn was an accomplished Bible scholar and minister before he ever set foot in his first Catholic church. He slowly started to see that many of the clear truths of the Bible were not reflected in evangelical protestantism, but were (to his distress) reflected in Catholicism. If memory serves the first big clues had to do with birth control and the sanctity of life, the Trinity as a covenant family and the Eucharist. All this before he went to his first Mass. The Scriptures truly did lead him to the Church, and to the Mass.

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

i do believe scripture and i am sure that i am part of christ’s church. It is a matter of my salvation and i believe jesus christ and follow him alone.
I do not depend on the world or on a pope…
I did depend on the pope for the longest time and i did hold a couple of positions that were special for a woman without a theological degree… I knew what i was talking about when i was talking about it and i taught some of it in my religion class (my teacher thought that would keep me from getting bored as i was interested and way past the instructions given there) as well as a catechist in my parish (i was the youngest group leader by far as i was just 17). I did rely on the pope and i had to sit down and study scripture all over when i got saved because i realized that i knew nothing… It was worthwhile however to get to know god’s word more intimately without the tradition of a church.

a devout person, even if he is not very inteleigent, is better off than the cleverest of sinners sirach 19:24